few questions about solar power....

[Hedges]

Agreed, looks like the correct plan.
Have to consider voltage and current rating of everything.

If you have PWM for now, then all 12V panels in parallel feed it to charge 12V battery.
If you get MPPT, then some number of panels would go in series, if they have same current.

 

[corporal_Canada]

Building custom batteries is an art all unto itself. There are way to many ways to go wrong with it that end in flames. From all of your posts and pictures in other threads you aren't there yet.

If there a solar or camping or RV store in your nearest large town? If so can you go there and physically look at the batteries prior to buying one?

The battery I linked will weigh about 1/2 the SLA battery you were using before. So if you handle one that appears to be that same weight but says it is LFP you KNOW it is falsely marked.

i didnt say KNOW.. i simply suspect, none of the online sellers can takw a photo of the inside of the battery which leads me to believe..... yeah.. fake.. my alternative idea is to go with a gel /sla battery that is bigger than a ups battery and charge that directly.... because i was going to go from solar bank battery > inverter > ups > computer... im sure there is alot of wattage loss in that path.. so i was wondering if i just get a bigger ups battery and replace it (if the ups parts allow it) and charge it directly.. this idea isnt budget driven.. just common sense..

 

[corporal_Canada]

I'm so sorry, I messed up, I ordered a 12v 50ah battery, I was thinking I could use it as a ups battery replacement because I don't think using an lfp batt in a ups isnt smart...do I need an mppt for this sla batt ? And nobody say I quit cuz I've just gotten started

 

[corporal_Canada]

Done

 

[corporal_Canada]

April 7, 2024

rumble.com

Sorry about talking so fast, I will take a reading of the volts and amperage tomorrow during sunlight peak hours

 

[corporal_Canada]

Done

I am sincerely sorry if my quebec accent is too thick but what i believe i said was i would like to replace the 12 volt 7ah battery inside the ups with the 12 volts 50ah battery that i ordered this morning and connect the solar panels to that 12 volt battery and at the same time keep the ups connected to the wall so that whatever is missing will be fed into the 50ah battery (ups battery replacement) from land power, I hope that makes things more clear

Really am sorry, Quebec has a whole history thing, first the French then the English and then... Klingons ??? My mentality and accent are the thing that keeps Scandinavians screaming at night...

 

[corporal_Canada]

No need for both "charge controller" and "mppt"; those refer to the same thing.

MPPT (Maximum Power Point Tracking) is a function of, and circuitry in, a charge controller. So long as the charge controller is actually MPPT, not PWM (Pulse Width Modulation).

(Don't be fooled by cheap lightweight SCC with the letters "MPPT" printed on it. It will be more expensive and heavier.)

Most AIO (All In One) inverters include PV inputs and have MPPT SCC built in.

okay, so no need to purchase an mppt ? good, i about ran out of money

 

[corporal_Canada]

I could always swap the 50ah sla battery with something else down the line or get more than one and etc....

 

[robbob2112]

I could always swap the 50ah sla battery with something else down the line or get more than one and etc....

A 50ah. SLA has about 25ah usable and a charge rate of only about 5 amps max. I'm out and about, I'll look it up when home. If your panels are really small that might be enough to even out when the clouds pass

The big question is what your solar panels really are. We need dimensions and pictures that are good and clear of the fronts of all three.

 

[robbob2112]

I am sincerely sorry if my quebec accent is too thick but what i believe i said was i would like to replace the 12 volt 7ah battery inside the ups with the 12 volts 50ah battery that i ordered this morning and connect the solar panels to that 12 volt battery and at the same time keep the ups connected to the wall so that whatever is missing will be fed into the 50ah battery (ups battery replacement) from land power, I hope that makes things more clear

Really am sorry, Quebec has a whole history thing, first the French then the English and then... Klingons ??? My mentality and accent are the thing that keeps Scandinavians screaming at night...

The problem with that is how the charge circuit in a typical UPS is put together.

They only work with the type and size battery they are designed for maybe a little better. I.e. you could replace your 7ah with a 9 or a pair of 7s so you have 14ah. The problem is the charger will overheat and then burn out unless it is designed to shutdown when hot. Problem is 99% are not designed to shut down. So they keep charging until the fry or the battery is full.

Instead of determining full by voltage they are just a constant current circuit and when SLA are full the internal resistance rises sharply limiting current. With to large a battery yhat takes to long and things overheat

 

[robbob2112]

Done

Are all of these your solar panels? Or only some of them?

The largest one on the top looks like it might big enough to do some good. The one on the left is a 30watt or 60watt panel at a guess. The smaller 4 are all only 20 watts or less each.

You need a tape measure or ruler and tell me how many cm tall and wide the two larger panels are.

Another task for you, get some tape and trace the wires from the panels into your wires coming in the window. Number the panels and the wires they go to. Don't cover any part of the panel except the frame.

Then take a paper and write the numbers down and measure the voltage on all of them. They should all be around 18volts dc. If any are reading zero that is a problem to sort out.

Take pictures front and back of your charge controller. You will need to disconnect it and pull it out of the shelf.

 

[corporal_Canada]

okay did a video.. showed the sticker with the charge controller, checked voltage of just 1 solar panel...
but flipping the multimeter to 10A showed no results.. maybe im confused about the fused and unfused portion of the multimeter input cables......

 

[Hedges]

Most DMM have (Common) input, (V/Ohm) input, and (Amps) input, so you have to move test lead.
Some have 3A use, some have 10A fuse. Your panels are probably small enough, but some panels will blow the fuse in some meters.

I've also blown the fuse by attempting to make amps measurement at PV input terminals of inverter (charge controller). For my equipment, that discharged 350V from capacitors into fuse.

If you tilt the panel edgewise to the sun, that drops current near zero. If you can attach the leads with alligator clips then tilt to face sun, it avoids arcing and burning terminals.

DC clamp ammeters are handy for PV panels and strings, but cost more.

 

[corporal_Canada]

WRONG VIDEO UPLOADED
here you go, sorry i had trouble uploading from my phone, please ignore the friendly chatter on my part.. its part of my nature...

 

[corporal_Canada]

Most DMM have (Common) input, (V/Ohm) input, and (Amps) input, so you have to move test lead.
Some have 3A use, some have 10A fuse. Your panels are probably small enough, but some panels will blow the fuse in some meters.

I've also blown the fuse by attempting to make amps measurement at PV input terminals of inverter (charge controller). For my equipment, that discharged 350V from capacitors into fuse.

If you tilt the panel edgewise to the sun, that drops current near zero. If you can attach the leads with alligator clips then tilt to face sun, it avoids arcing and burning terminals.

DC clamp ammeters are handy for PV panels and strings, but cost more.

ive invested too much already, im at a stage where i need to see some return on my investment (ie.. 2 battery, 3 solar panels.. few inverters)

all solar panels are placed on the roof facing upwards with.. maybe a 15 degree angle, i cant be bothered to place a 1 inch styrofoam under each one to give more sunlight...

i may not be able to live entirely on solar as it stands but.. i can feed what i got to the ups battery and lesten the draw from the wall socket and reduce my electric bill which is actually more expensive here than my hydro Quebec electric bill which used to be 30$cad a monthand i had my pc and 2 monitors running 24/7... mild heat during the chilly months of Jan and feb.... .. ac running all summer long.. a huge 55L hot water tank.. a fridge.. microwave, normal sized oven, 52inch tv.. plasma or lcd i dunno to play ps4 endlessly.... AND i charged my 48V electric bike...
another reason is that the local power plant is primitive coal driven.. yes Canada has one somewhere in the middle but that is because wind power isnt enough to accomodate all its users...

 

[robbob2112]

Nobody is trying to stop using anything you have. We are trying to help you, but you have to help us identify what you have.

We are still at the stage of identifying the panels you have. What Hedges is suggesting is to try and find the short circuit current (Isc) of your panels in a safe way.

Either use aligator clips to connect the meter leads to the wires from a single panel. while the panel is standing upright verse facing directly to the sun.
On the DMM there typically three places to connect leads, one for common/ground/negative - black lead goes here .....
one for positive where you measure ohms and volts and such
One for high current - it will be labeled either 5A (amps) or 10A (amps).....

Inside the meter the high current hole is typically fused for 5 or 10 amps depending on what the meter can do.

Once the meter is connected while the panel is standing on edge away from direct sun you gradually tilt into the sun while watching the meter reading. Don't exceed the max current of the meter and if it is gradually climbing you can stop just short of that and know your panel will push at least that much current.


I took your image and labeled it with numbers -


Practice on a small panel so you get the hang of it and know what to expect. Panel #4 is where I would start. This will also tell you if the fuse inside the meter is blown and needs to be replaced. If you get a good reading on the small panel #4 move to the one that is second from largest - The one labeled #1 -- Then Do #2 and so on until you have done all panels.



See the pictures I have attached from my meter that it has the leads in the right place for what we are asking you to do. IF your meter only has two holes in it, unplug the leads and take a picture of the front of it to post and we can tell you what to do.

Once we know the Isc value we can do the math to figure out the watts your panels can put out.

Once you have the procedure down pat the next step is to write down what each panel puts out.

Pull the wires up onto the roof and check each panel one at a time - write down the current and label the wire with tape so you can know which ones to connect back in your room.


No more videos needed, just the pictures requested of the blue box in your room that currently has a solar panel hooked to it. This is called the PWM controller (it might be mislabeled as a MPPT)

 

[corporal_Canada]

Nobody is trying to stop using anything you have. We are trying to help you, but you have to help us identify what you have.

We are still at the stage of identifying the panels you have. What Hedges is suggesting is to try and find the short circuit current (Isc) of your panels in a safe way.

Either use aligator clips to connect the meter leads to the wires from a single panel. while the panel is standing upright verse facing directly to the sun.
On the DMM there typically three places to connect leads, one for common/ground/negative - black lead goes here .....
one for positive where you measure ohms and volts and such
One for high current - it will be labeled either 5A (amps) or 10A (amps).....

Inside the meter the high current hole is typically fused for 5 or 10 amps depending on what the meter can do.

Once the meter is connected while the panel is standing on edge away from direct sun you gradually tilt into the sun while watching the meter reading. Don't exceed the max current of the meter and if it is gradually climbing you can stop just short of that and know your panel will push at least that much current.


I took your image and labeled it with numbers -


Practice on a small panel so you get the hang of it and know what to expect. Panel #4 is where I would start. This will also tell you if the fuse inside the meter is blown and needs to be replaced. If you get a good reading on the small panel #4 move to the one that is second from largest - The one labeled #1 -- Then Do #2 and so on until you have done all panels.



See the pictures I have attached from my meter that it has the leads in the right place for what we are asking you to do. IF your meter only has two holes in it, unplug the leads and take a picture of the front of it to post and we can tell you what to do.

Once we know the Isc value we can do the math to figure out the watts your panels can put out.

Once you have the procedure down pat the next step is to write down what each panel puts out.

Pull the wires up onto the roof and check each panel one at a time - write down the current and label the wire with tape so you can know which ones to connect back in your room.


No more videos needed, just the pictures requested of the blue box in your room that currently has a solar panel hooked to it. This is called the PWM controller (it might be mislabeled as a MPPT)

Sorry, this city had no power from morning till 1820... Just tiny update, I connected just ONE Panel to the charge controller and the LCD lit up.. connected that to the ups battery which allowed me to charge all my mobile devices and power my fan and ze modem..(french accent for the last one).... Hot day...

Not absolutely sure but I believe I used the buig panel that I've got.
Which says 400watts underneath...... Please don't make me go back on the roof, it's hot and scary up there....

 

[corporal_Canada]

Yolanda pt 2... try me

rumble.com

This i believe is the correct video of checking the voltage of the largest solar panel which i believe is the one that marks 400 watts i don't know how to check amperage i'm just that dumb my apologies did it once and i forgot how it's the uh connections or terminals of the cables that go into the multimeter there's a hole in the middle i believe it is the unfused part the one time i touch that my multimeter exploded back in MTL..

 

[corporal_Canada]

Currently since the charge controller blinked back into life with only one solar panel i'm assuming it's the large 400 watt one that some of you are claiming is fake i did connect the two cables to the ups battery because there was a power outage comically called brownout must be a racist thing....

I know i know i should be using tiny alligator clips but i can't find any and downtown here and i just don't feel like waiting 5 to 7 days for delivery from the manila area all the way to hear keeping mind philippines 7,500 islands

Please point out anything you see wrong in that particular photo that charge controller goes to those two black cables with the ring terminals to the battery before the ups internal cableage...

 

[corporal_Canada]

Nobody is trying to stop using anything you have. We are trying to help you, but you have to help us identify what you have.

We are still at the stage of identifying the panels you have. What Hedges is suggesting is to try and find the short circuit current (Isc) of your panels in a safe way.

Either use aligator clips to connect the meter leads to the wires from a single panel. while the panel is standing upright verse facing directly to the sun.
On the DMM there typically three places to connect leads, one for common/ground/negative - black lead goes here .....
one for positive where you measure ohms and volts and such
One for high current - it will be labeled either 5A (amps) or 10A (amps).....

Inside the meter the high current hole is typically fused for 5 or 10 amps depending on what the meter can do.

Once the meter is connected while the panel is standing on edge away from direct sun you gradually tilt into the sun while watching the meter reading. Don't exceed the max current of the meter and if it is gradually climbing you can stop just short of that and know your panel will push at least that much current.


I took your image and labeled it with numbers -


Practice on a small panel so you get the hang of it and know what to expect. Panel #4 is where I would start. This will also tell you if the fuse inside the meter is blown and needs to be replaced. If you get a good reading on the small panel #4 move to the one that is second from largest - The one labeled #1 -- Then Do #2 and so on until you have done all panels.



See the pictures I have attached from my meter that it has the leads in the right place for what we are asking you to do. IF your meter only has two holes in it, unplug the leads and take a picture of the front of it to post and we can tell you what to do.

Once we know the Isc value we can do the math to figure out the watts your panels can put out.

Once you have the procedure down pat the next step is to write down what each panel puts out.

Pull the wires up onto the roof and check each panel one at a time - write down the current and label the wire with tape so you can know which ones to connect back in your room.


No more videos needed, just the pictures requested of the blue box in your room that currently has a solar panel hooked to it. This is called the PWM controller (it might be mislabeled as a MPPT)

im gonna concentrate on 2 & 1..... # 2 is what i added to the ups battery today.. although i didnt want to risk turning the ups on until power came back... maybe if i jam all 3 big sized panels going to that ups battery ???

the somewhat bigger one should arrive within 2-3 days... certainly using that beast will help things along... quick side question, i distantly remember being told to never place a car battery on concrete because it discharges ??? you can visually see that i have a tiled floor.. but underneath is.. well concrete .. assuming the tile is 1cm thick... does the same apply ???

 

[robbob2112]

im gonna concentrate on 2 & 1..... # 2 is what i added to the ups battery today.. although i didnt want to risk turning the ups on until power came back... maybe if i jam all 3 big sized panels going to that ups battery ???

the somewhat bigger one should arrive within 2-3 days... certainly using that beast will help things along... quick side question, i distantly remember being told to never place a car battery on concrete because it discharges ??? you can visually see that i have a tiled floor.. but underneath is.. well concrete .. assuming the tile is 1cm thick... does the same apply ???

that is an old wives tail and not true from a strickly technical standpoint.

Setting a car battery on concrete that is cold like most of the US and Canada makes the battery cold. When a battery cold it slows down the chemical reaction inside it that makes it a battery. But, it doesn't magically bleed electrons through the case. It is no different than just being cold in the car.

Term deffinitions -

Isc = current short circuit ('I' is the symbol for current) - This is with the wires touching nothing but meter leads
Voc = Voltage open circuit - this is with the wires touching nothing but meter leads
vmp = Maximum operating voltage = this is the max voltage in full sun while connected to a PWM
Imp = maximum power current = this is the max amps in full sun while connected to the PWM
pm = Maximum powere = vmp * imp = watts out - so this is the maximum power a panel can push.


Your meter basics ---
The hookups are like mine - you should always have the black wire in the center hole - it is common.
The right hole is for volts and ohms and smaller amp readings. This is the normal position for the red wire.
The left hole is where the red wire would go for reading up to 10 amps.




Put your black lead in the middle and your red lead in the left and set to DC current and then connect the wires.

For the reading we need from your panels - wrap the wire from the solar panels around leads to get a firm connection - there are aligator clips that go over the tips of the probes to grab wires with that would be better if you have them.




From your video I grabbed this screen shot while you were reading it out. -- You have a 20amp PWM charge controller with 50v --- this should do nicely to start with. Instead of taking videos of things - just take clear still images - shorter and simpler to see.




If you leave your panel hooked straight to your UPS battery you will make that battery kaput - so make sure to hook things up like this - make sure the red wires are in the + screw on the PWM and the black are in the - screw of the PWM. Make sure the right two screws are not used they are for a load that is no more than a 12vdc light bulb. Just don't use them.

Read the manual that should have come with it and make sure the battery type is set to SLA (sealed lead acid) or just Lead acid. If it allows you to set max charge amps set to 3 amps or less.

If you hook up the output from the PWM to the battery while the battery is also connected to the UPS there is a VERY HIGH chance you will make the UPS kaput. This is becuse the UPS charger is trying to vary the voltage by manipulating the voltage regulator to maintain a constant charge current and it depends on the battery resistance going up to know when it is full.

If you introduce the separate current coming in from the PWM that can confuse things and heat the UPS circuit way past its limits.... and kaput.

Now - that battery in the UPS can take a maximum current of about 1.8 to 2 amps. If you connect more amps through there than that you will fry it in a few hours.

 

[corporal_Canada]

that is an old wives tail and not true from a strickly technical standpoint.

Setting a car battery on concrete that is cold like most of the US and Canada makes the battery cold. When a battery cold it slows down the chemical reaction inside it that makes it a battery. But, it doesn't magically bleed electrons through the case. It is no different than just being cold in the car.

Term deffinitions -

Isc = current short circuit ('I' is the symbol for current) - This is with the wires touching nothing but meter leads
Voc = Voltage open circuit - this is with the wires touching nothing but meter leads
vmp = Maximum operating voltage = this is the max voltage in full sun while connected to a PWM
Imp = maximum power current = this is the max amps in full sun while connected to the PWM
pm = Maximum powere = vmp * imp = watts out - so this is the maximum power a panel can push.


Your meter basics ---
The hookups are like mine - you should always have the black wire in the center hole - it is common.
The right hole is for volts and ohms and smaller amp readings. This is the normal position for the red wire.
The left hole is where the red wire would go for reading up to 10 amps.

View attachment 208182


Put your black lead in the middle and your red lead in the left and set to DC current and then connect the wires.

For the reading we need from your panels - wrap the wire from the solar panels around leads to get a firm connection - there are aligator clips that go over the tips of the probes to grab wires with that would be better if you have them.

View attachment 208190


From your video I grabbed this screen shot while you were reading it out. -- You have a 20amp PWM charge controller with 50v --- this should do nicely to start with. Instead of taking videos of things - just take clear still images - shorter and simpler to see.

View attachment 208183


If you leave your panel hooked straight to your UPS battery you will make that battery kaput - so make sure to hook things up like this - make sure the red wires are in the + screw on the PWM and the black are in the - screw of the PWM. Make sure the right two screws are not used they are for a load that is no more than a 12vdc light bulb. Just don't use them.

Read the manual that should have come with it and make sure the battery type is set to SLA (sealed lead acid) or just Lead acid. If it allows you to set max charge amps set to 3 amps or less.

If you hook up the output from the PWM to the battery while the battery is also connected to the UPS there is a VERY HIGH chance you will make the UPS kaput. This is becuse the UPS charger is trying to vary the voltage by manipulating the voltage regulator to maintain a constant charge current and it depends on the battery resistance going up to know when it is full.

If you introduce the separate current coming in from the PWM that can confuse things and heat the UPS circuit way past its limits.... and kaput.

Now - that battery in the UPS can take a maximum current of about 1.8 to 2 amps. If you connect more amps through there than that you will fry it in a few hours.


View attachment 208186

positive to red
negative to black.. im with you
however in only using one panel

and you assume that ive ever seen an instruction manual here....

so can i feed as you said 1.8 to 2 amps to ups until my 50ah battery arrives ?

keep in mins that it is still plugged into the wall outlet as a back up....

and leaving the 2 cables on the multimeter sitting in their default positions, i set to 10a and saw it bounce between 0.00 and 2.00

 

[corporal_Canada]

ups started screaming so i removed the connection from ups battery to charge controller and it is quiet now, i wonder why it did that....

if this idea doesnt work, ill have to just tie in charge controller to the battery that im receiving in 2-3 days.. and inverter to that battery and ups to that inverter.. i did briefly touch the inverter to the ups battery for a second and sure enough.. it had a light.. good sign.. oh.. the 1000W inverter with mandarin all over it...
but this method im losing watts all over the place converting dc to ac everywhere.. thats almost equivalent to 1 whole panel, just saying....

 

[robbob2112]

OK,

The UPS started screaming because the input voltage/current was fluctuating wildly. I am pretty sure I said you could only hook to that battery with it NOT connected to the UPS or you would chance kaput it.

1 to 2 amps is alright for that battery with nothing else connected. Don't try that with any of the other panels unless you have verified what their current is.,


Your new battery should be charged at 14.25 volts and between 7.5 and 12.5 amps.

IF YOU EXCEED EITHER VOLTAGE OR CURRENT FOR MORE THAN A FEW MINUTES THE NEW BATTERY WILL BE KAPUT.

Read the warning above and repeat it to yourself a few times. The problem with gel batteries is that they are very sensitive to overcharging. If you overcharge it or exceed voltage/current it boils the gel electrolyte and the cells get dry.

It is possible to all DISTILLED water to a gel battery to top it up if the cells are low, but if you take care of the battery it will never be low and it will last 3 to 5 years. If you add plain tap water or other water to the battery the minerals in the water will react with the acid in the battery and damage it.


One reason I kept trying to get you to buy a LiFePO4 battery is that a 50ah version can be charged at up to 30amps. The 100ah version can take up to 50 amps.


Now -

Put tape on the wires hanging so you can write on it. It needs to be big enough to write the amps
Put the meter wires like I said - black in the middle and red on the left side. Set the meter to the highest DC amp range.
Now go through all of the wire pairs and test/write down the amps each pulls.


Report back what you find.

 

[corporal_Canada]

OK,

The UPS started screaming because the input voltage/current was fluctuating wildly. I am pretty sure I said you could only hook to that battery with it NOT connected to the UPS or you would chance kaput it.

1 to 2 amps is alright for that battery with nothing else connected. Don't try that with any of the other panels unless you have verified what their current is.,


Your new battery should be charged at 14.25 volts and between 7.5 and 12.5 amps.

IF YOU EXCEED EITHER VOLTAGE OR CURRENT FOR MORE THAN A FEW MINUTES THE NEW BATTERY WILL BE KAPUT.

Read the warning above and repeat it to yourself a few times. The problem with gel batteries is that they are very sensitive to overcharging. If you overcharge it or exceed voltage/current it boils the gel electrolyte and the cells get dry.

It is possible to all DISTILLED water to a gel battery to top it up if the cells are low, but if you take care of the battery it will never be low and it will last 3 to 5 years. If you add plain tap water or other water to the battery the minerals in the water will react with the acid in the battery and damage it.


One reason I kept trying to get you to buy a LiFePO4 battery is that a 50ah version can be charged at up to 30amps. The 100ah version can take up to 50 amps.


Now -

Put tape on the wires hanging so you can write on it. It needs to be big enough to write the amps
Put the meter wires like I said - black in the middle and red on the left side. Set the meter to the highest DC amp range.
Now go through all of the wire pairs and test/write down the amps each pulls.


Report back what you find.

I didn't ignore anything you said I assure you, I'm just trying to find out what I did to make that specific event happen, sweet thing about humanity, we are always learning.. it is currently 1230 here, since I've already seen the amperage of just the 1 solar panel that I am using at the moment..do you want me to test the other panels as well??? V and A??? But if the solar panel is going into a charge controller, why is anything being overcharged??? Isn't that it's only function ? Damnit charge controller, you had 1 job....