I Can't Afford So-Called "Tier 1" Equipment. What's Good at Tier 2?

[Hedges]

The inverter efficiency curves I've seen look like no-load consumption plus a term proportional to square of power. (I^2R losses in inductors and FETs.)

Shaving peaks by running large loads at different times rather than simultaneous would save power.
Idle consumption is part of the total, whether loads are active or not.
Some inverters can work as a team, have the extras sleep when not needed.

My Sunny Island has that feature, but reportedly second phase would sleep, so needs an auto-transformer to maintain split-phase.
I think I can reduce 4 x 25W = 100W to 1 x 25W + 3 x 4W + 7W = 44W that way. (transformer dissipates 7W)

 

[EastTexCowboy]

The inverter efficiency curves I've seen look like no-load consumption plus a term proportional to square of power. (I^2R losses in inductors and FETs.)

Shaving peaks by running large loads at different times rather than simultaneous would save power.
Idle consumption is part of the total, whether loads are active or not.
Some inverters can work as a team, have the extras sleep when not needed.

My Sunny Island has that feature, but reportedly second phase would sleep, so needs an auto-transformer to maintain split-phase.
I think I can reduce 4 x 25W = 100W to 1 x 25W + 3 x 4W + 7W = 44W that way. (transformer dissipates 7W)

Hedges types "The inverter efficiency curves I've seen look like no-load consumption plus a term proportional to square of power. (I^2R losses in inductors and FETs.)" and my brain translates it to "blah curves blah blah of power blah blah"

 

[Zwy]

The inverter efficiency curves I've seen look like no-load consumption plus a term proportional to square of power. (I^2R losses in inductors and FETs.)

Shaving peaks by running large loads at different times rather than simultaneous would save power.

There is a reason inverter fans crank up under larger loads. Heat gets generated which is wasted energy. Another reason for loads management.

Idle consumption is part of the total, whether loads are active or not.
Some inverters can work as a team, have the extras sleep when not needed.

My Sunny Island has that feature, but reportedly second phase would sleep, so needs an auto-transformer to maintain split-phase.
I think I can reduce 4 x 25W = 100W to 1 x 25W + 3 x 4W + 7W = 44W that way. (transformer dissipates 7W)

 

[Hedges]

Hedges types "The inverter efficiency curves I've seen look like no-load consumption plus a term proportional to square of power. (I^2R losses in inductors and FETs.)" and my brain translates it to "blah curves blah blah of power blah blah"

View attachment 157284

Key point being losses go as the square of power delivered.
Supplying 2000W load results in 4x the loss compared to 1000W load.

My inverter has base power consumption of 25W.

If it is 95% efficient at 5kW, that means 5% loss or 250W

250W - 25W = 225W lost driving 5kW.
If load was only 2500W, 2500W/5000W = 0.5
0.5 squared = 0.25
225W x 0.25 = 56W
56W + 25W = 81W.

If you supply 5000W for one hour, zero watts for one hour, consumption is 275Wh
If you supply 2500W for two hours, consumption is 162Wh. Saves 113Wh

Same square law applies to battery cables, AC wiring, fuses and breakers.

Surge capability 2x continuous? Power dissipation 4x, which rapidly overheats transistors, therefore can only be sustained a short time.
Heatsinks have limited heat transfer ability (thermal resistance to air.) Water cooling, anyone??

 

[timselectric]

Bottom line.
If you are worried about idle consumption.
Just turn on more loads. lol

 

[G00SE]

I’m back for more punishment. Can’t stop reading threads and causing myself more feelings of ignorance.

To stay on topic of the thread: what would cause one to consider the luxpower or solark 12k/15k options a higher “tier” than say the Growatt or Sungold/sigineer 12k? In following both the solark and lux/eg4 threads it appears that we are coming up on 1yr old devices that they are still facing numerous growing pains on

It would appear idle is higher on the Growatt. But it has a more significant surge capacity.
The luxpower and sol ark both accept a much larger PV and at much higher voltage.
But the Growatt can still receive up to 7k of PV with a 250v capacity which seems “reasonable”
That notion though as well, one could add another SCC directly to battery for additional PV

At 3x the cost, in a purely offgrid home, what benefit does the HF options offer vs the Growatt and it’s siblings

 

[timselectric]

I’m back for more punishment. Can’t stop reading threads and causing myself more feelings of ignorance.

To stay on topic of the thread: what would cause one to consider the luxpower or solark 12k/15k options a higher “tier” than say the Growatt or Sungold/sigineer 12k? In following both the solark and lux/eg4 threads it appears that we are coming up on 1yr old devices that they are still facing numerous growing pains on

It would appear idle is higher on the Growatt. But it has a more significant surge capacity.
The luxpower and sol ark both accept a much larger PV and at much higher voltage.
But the Growatt can still receive up to 7k of PV with a 250v capacity which seems “reasonable”
That notion though as well, one could add another SCC directly to battery for additional PV

At 3x the cost, in a purely offgrid home, what benefit does the HF options offer vs the Growatt and it’s siblings

Luxpower and Sol-Ark are not Tier one products. They don't have the track record, yet. In time, they have the potential to be.
Some people think that price dictates Tier.
It doesn't.

 

[SilverbackMP]

But the Growatt can still receive up to 7k of PV with a 250v capacity which seems “reasonable”

Really depends on how far your runs are.. for most people, 250v are probably fine. I had 280 foot runs so I wanted higher volts (my arrays, wired 100% in series, will hit just under 500v on the coldest day on record at peak sun).

 

[G00SE]

Luxpower and Sol-Ark are not Tier one products. They don't have the track record, yet. In time, they have the potential to be.
Some people think that price dictates Tier.
It doesn't.

Which leads me to the question of: why are people paying 3x as much for them then?
Not trying to be facetious

 

[G00SE]

Really depends on how far your runs are.. for most people, 250v are probably fine. I had 280 foot runs so I wanted higher volts (my arrays, wired 100% in series, will hit just under 500v on the coldest day on record at peak sun).

Maybe I’m not grasping the significance. If you ran 4s2p instead of 8s1p wouldn’t that effectively cut the voltage by half? So if you’re currently seeing a max of 500v, but splitting your string you would fall within spec of the 250v requirement providing one can still fall within the amperage threshold I suppose.
It’s entirely possible that I’m visualizing this incorrectly , hence my persistence to ask

 

[Zwy]

I’m back for more punishment. Can’t stop reading threads and causing myself more feelings of ignorance.

I hope you're enjoying the discussion, this is one of those threads where we kick around ideas, opinions and of course sometimes a little banter.

To stay on topic of the thread: what would cause one to consider the luxpower or solark 12k/15k options a higher “tier” than say the Growatt or Sungold/sigineer 12k? In following both the solark and lux/eg4 threads it appears that we are coming up on 1yr old devices that they are still facing numerous growing pains on

I would not consider them higher tier. I would consider those 2 inverters filling a specific need in the market but are not proven to be solid performers, at least for the Luxpower. Sol Ark had a head start so it is slightly less troublesome at this point.

The EG4 6500EX was a no go for me after 2 attempts with different pairs of inverters. I'm not the only one and I was not impressed with the sine, very dirty and I could see this causing problems. One member here told me privately his TV was fried the same day he installed a replacement pair of the 6500EX's.

In the process I installed the LV6548's and ran those thru the tests. Clean power, sine is great, no lighting problems. So when I returned the second pair of 6500EX's, the LV6548's went back in. Solid performer, I have no issues. My only problem was the low VOC rating and my array 420 feet away. Installing the EG4 SCC's will work out perfectly, I was slightly overpaneled on the 6500EX's, now I can capture another 300 to 400W in good sun. I'm actually seeing the EG4 SCC that is currently connected commonly output 4.3Kw with 4.2Kw of panels.

I wouldn't consider the Luxpower at this point, wait until the bugs get worked out. Sol Ark might be OK at this point, you just don't see that many posts with problems or even posts indicating many members purchased the Sol Ark.

It would appear idle is higher on the Growatt. But it has a more significant surge capacity.

I asked James what the actual output of the 18Kpv unit is solely off battery which would be night time usage. He ignored it, so I question the "marketing" of the product. If you look at the spec sheet, the surge power is listed as 5 minutes and 10 minutes, no continuous rating solely off battery. It is a red flag to me if the owner of the company can't/won't answer the question.

Sol Ark does give that spec, kudos to them.

The luxpower and sol ark both accept a much larger PV and at much higher voltage.
But the Growatt can still receive up to 7k of PV with a 250v capacity which seems “reasonable”
That notion though as well, one could add another SCC directly to battery for additional PV

I won't be using any of the MPPT's on the LV6548's once the other SCC is installed. I have the option to always install some extra panels I guess. Maybe use one for SE facing array and another for SW facing array.

At 3x the cost, in a purely offgrid home, what benefit does the HF options offer vs the Growatt and it’s siblings

From what I have read here, those running off grid with the LV6548's were quite happy with the performance. It is a solid performer that I've seen, can't say that about other units from my personal experience.

 

[1201]

Really depends on how far your runs are.. for most people, 250v are probably fine. I had 280 foot runs so I wanted higher volts (my arrays, wired 100% in series, will hit just under 500v on the coldest day on record at peak sun).

Which leads me to the question of: why are people paying 3x as much for them then?
Not trying to be facetious

Grid interactive features

 

[timselectric]

Which leads me to the question of: why are people paying 3x as much for them then?
Not trying to be facetious

Features, and compliance certification.

 

[G00SE]

I hope you're enjoying the discussion, this is one of those threads where we kick around ideas, opinions and of course sometimes a little banter.

Very much so, I’m actually trying to pace myself in effort to not be perceived as hijacking a thread or simply becoming a nuisance hah.

 

[Zwy]

Maybe I’m not grasping the significance. If you ran 4s2p instead of 8s1p wouldn’t that effectively cut the voltage by half? So if you’re currently seeing a max of 500v, but splitting your string you would fall within spec of the 250v requirement providing one can still fall within the amperage threshold I suppose.
It’s entirely possible that I’m visualizing this incorrectly , hence my persistence to ask

Paralleling strings can lead to some power loss in addition to the loss due to voltage drop. Hedges mentioned power loss above and yes, it is exponential in the loss.

From my testing so far comparing 8S to 4s, with somewhat less than ideal sun, a pair 4S, each to their own SCC would outperform the 8S by about 5%. It was an interesting finding.

8S compared to a pair of 4S, again each to their own SCC will outperform the 4S by 6% if the array in is full sun at peak power hours.

The advantages to the 8S are the 6% gain in full sun (I figure minimum 4 hours per day) plus the cost of the wire and wire AWG.

I was planning on paralleling strings on the 4S inputting to the LV6548 but decided instead to input into the other EG4 SCC and see how much difference without the variable of a possibly different algorithm in the MPPT.

 

[SilverbackMP]

Maybe I’m not grasping the significance. If you ran 4s2p instead of 8s1p wouldn’t that effectively cut the voltage by half? So if you’re currently seeing a max of 500v, but splitting your string you would fall within spec of the 250v requirement providing one can still fall within the amperage threshold I suppose.
It’s entirely possible that I’m visualizing this incorrectly , hence my persistence to ask

I have 12 panels on each string and six strings. All serial. High voltage means less line loss and smaller wires. Not a huge issue if you are going from a roof or ground mount setup close to your inverters. Mine is going 280 feet. Thicker wire is more expensive. Bigger conduit is more expensive (especially in schedule 80 in which part of this is ran).

 

[1201]

This info is printed right on the side panel (right hand side) of the inverter.

Thanks I went and found it. It also says DC input 48v 137a which means supports the 6500w capacity

 

[Crowz]

I'd be looking into that. I never shut any of the computers off or printer, the one paired with the Batrium never sleeps and the screen is on 24/7. 2 big screen TV's plugged in plus DVD player, alarm clocks and router plus wireless link between house and shop.

Biggest user might be outdoor motion lights, the cats like tripping the lights all night long. Those aren't baseload though. 2 freezers and fridge run whenever.

The reason my min is so high is server racks. I host websites and have to run servers here that are backups to my hosting machines though its not to bad.

700 watts average for those circuits alone. So that leaves 900 watts for the rest of the house.

300 to 400 watts are the 2 frig and 1 freezer circuit. So 500 to 600 watts for the rest of the house with those taken out.

 

[Crowz]

From where I mentioned server racks in that earlier post I was reminded how I keep seeing the extra racks I have and think damn those would look good full of server rack batteries. They would actually be ideal for it. These racks are sound proof, air conditioned and have cool smoked glass doors.

Talk about an ideal solar setup

 

[EastTexCowboy]

The reason my min is so high is server racks. I host websites and have to run servers here that are backups to my hosting machines though its not to bad.

700 watts average for those circuits alone. So that leaves 900 watts for the rest of the house.

300 to 400 watts are the 2 frig and 1 freezer circuit. So 500 to 600 watts for the rest of the house with those taken out.

I still host a few websites, mostly internal stuff and a few for friends. But I just lease a server. It probably costs a little more than rolling my own but it's way less hassle.

 

[Crowz]

I still host a few websites, mostly internal stuff and a few for friends. But I just lease a server. It probably costs a little more than rolling my own but it's way less hassle.

Sorry if I didn't word that right I lease LOTS of servers. The ones in the house are strictly for backing up the live remote servers and for testing or pre-deploying work.

 

[EastTexCowboy]

Sorry if I didn't word that right I lease LOTS of servers. The ones in the house are strictly for backing up the live remote servers and for testing or pre-deploying work.

I'm glad I'm out of that rat race. 40 years of it is enough. I still manage three servers remotely for my friend and CPA, but only because he guilts me into it. Even that needs to go away soon. I'm way happier messing with my solar or the cows or mowing pastures or even fixing fences. Close to zero stress.

 

[Crowz]

I'm glad I'm out of that rat race. 40 years of it is enough. I still manage three servers remotely for my friend and CPA, but only because he guilts me into it. Even that needs to go away soon. I'm way happier messing with my solar or the cows or mowing pastures or even fixing fences. Close to zero stress.

I hope to get to that point one day but at the same time I have most of it automated now so its kind of free money work wise but there is always that hint of stress worry if something will go wrong.

I prefer messing with the solar these days more than anything else. I guess its because what I do is all that effects the outcome. I'm not dependent or needing someone else to do anything on it. It's my own little thing I do.

 

[OffGridForGood]

Thanks I went and found it. It also says DC input 48v 137a which means supports the 6500w capacity

Yes,
It seems many people just assume from the "6048" model number that these are 6000W output, but not really.
MPP made a 4048 and 5048 earlier model with similar function to the 6048, so the numbering just carried on from those. Occationally someone will post questions about the earlier 5048 model.

 

[42OhmsPA]

I'll just leave this here so you can all stop me from ordering 2 or 3...

MPP LV6048 Solar All-In-One 120/240V Dual Internal Inverter – Current Connected Savings Shack