Ive had solar for a year and now the utility company charges a demand fee... not cool.

[vwaudiguy]

As already stated, Controlling loads is way cheaper than adding battery capacity.
”Smart” EV chargers have the load shedding functionality.
Also no reason to run hot water heater and heat pump in same time. For them simple relay-based load—shedding could be enough to prevent them operating simultaneously.

A9C15913 - CDS - three phase load-shedding contactor - 1 channel per phase | Schneider Electric New Zealand

Schneider Electric New Zealand. A9C15913 - CDS - three phase load-shedding contactor - 1 channel per phase.

www.se.com

As far as the water heater and heat pump running at the same time.. having 3 out of the 4 people living at the house taking showers/baths each night after work means the water heater is on for a constant 4 hours... turning the HVAC off for that time won't work... the water heater is a heat pump model which connects to wifi and such.. cycling its power on and off many not bode well... I am going to try a few things to reduce demand on my own before the demand charges are implemented in April..

 

[Oldphile]

In NH we don't have demand charges for residential service. But the meter for the well pump for our condo has demand charges. However, there's no demand charge for the first 5KW.

 

[vwaudiguy]

Exactly. It is a fixed charge under the assumption that heavy users require more infrastructure. It makes sense in a commercial or industrial setting where that is true. They have been a component of commercial rates for years. I would hate to think it becomes common for residential

It appears there are only 3 electric cooperatives in the state of Missouri that's are implementing these demand charges this year... I'm sure we are some kind of test group for more expansion. There is a bill that is getting some discussion that could make the net metering laws more "solar" friendly so these rates are probably in anticipation of the bill passing.. who knows.

 

[themizz]

As far as the water heater and heat pump running at the same time.. having 3 out of the 4 people living at the house taking showers/baths each night after work means the water heater is on for a constant 4 hours... turning the HVAC off for that time won't work... the water heater is a heat pump model which connects to wifi and such.. cycling its power on and off many not bode well... I am going to try a few things to reduce demand on my own before the demand charges are implemented in April..

You might want to also look at getting a second hphwh and running it in parallel with the first, that should enable you to stay on heap pump only mode indefinitely.

 

[vwaudiguy]

You might want to also look at getting a second hphwh and running it in parallel with the first, that should enable you to stay on heap pump only mode indefinitely.

I have thought about that but the 80 gallon unit I have now was $2800 before rebates... do I spend another $2800 for a second unit to keep both on heat pump mode or build a battery/inverter setup to run the current unit "off grid". In heat pump mode it uses 400w but in high demand mode it can use 5000w.. it puts off a lot of cold air which is fantastic in the summer but not so good in the winter.. 2 of them running would be crazy I bet.

 

[MattiFin]

As far as the water heater and heat pump running at the same time.. having 3 out of the 4 people living at the house taking showers/baths each night after work means the water heater is on for a constant 4 hours... turning the HVAC off for that time won't work... the water heater is a heat pump model which connects to wifi and such.. cycling its power on and off many not bode well... I am going to try a few things to reduce demand on my own before the demand charges are implemented in April..

Storage tank/boiler for water heater? Storing hot water is extremely cheap compared to storing same amount of electricity.

 

[rhino]

My co-op started what they also call a "demand fee" which is they take whatever your highest peak usage was for the month and then multiply that by a higher rate charge. Is this the same thing? It is basically impossible to "manage" for this to prevent it unless you just don't have any peak usages during the month. I know a person on the co-op board and they did this because it was the cheapest increase in monthly charges for those people on the board based on their previous electric bills when they simulated what affect it would have on them.. as opposed to implementing some other method such as time of use charges where you could at least manage when you used your power.

 

[OzSolar]

It appears there are only 3 electric cooperatives in the state of Missouri that's are implementing these demand charges this year... I'm sure we are some kind of test group for more expansion. There is a bill that is getting some discussion that could make the net metering laws more "solar" friendly so these rates are probably in anticipation of the bill passing.. who knows.

Where did you learn about this? I've not heard anything about it yet.

In early January I did learn that Missouri COOPs are also trying to get a law passed to redefine net metering as something that is not metering.

Check out House Bills 1705 and 1854 and see how you read them.

Below is a snip from 1705. From my layman's understanding 1854 reads about the same. In essence it eliminates net metering.

 

[vwaudiguy]

My co-op started what they also call a "demand fee" which is they take whatever your highest peak usage was for the month and then multiply that by a higher rate charge. Is this the same thing? It is basically impossible to "manage" for this to prevent it unless you just don't have any peak usages during the month. I know a person on the co-op board and they did this because it was the cheapest increase in monthly charges for those people on the board based on their previous electric bills when they simulated what affect it would have on them.. as opposed to implementing some other method such as time of use charges where you could at least manage when you used your power.

That sounds like the same thing.. how are the non nerd general customers supposed to understand how they are being billed.. and then once they do they will figure out there is very little they can do to combat it.

 

[OzSolar]

Thanks for the explanation. I guess as the generation ability of electrical companies gets more constrained these types of rationing plans is inevitable. Glad I am mostly Off grid now.

They've always done it for all but the tiniest commercial customers (40kW or less) but this residential trend is very recent thing.

How I would explain it when I worked for a utility back in the 90's is that we have to build and maintain infrastructure that is capable of supplying you the highest demand that you need regardless of how often you need it.

On a individual scale it's like having to buy 15kW generator to be able to start and run a well pump a few times a day but the remainder of the day you only need 2kW or less.

 

[vwaudiguy]

Where did you learn about this? I've not heard anything about it yet.

In early January I did learn that Missouri COOPs are also trying to get a law passed to redefine net metering as something that is not metering.

Check out House Bills 1705 and 1854 and see how you read them.

Below is a snip from 1705. From my layman's understanding 1854 reads about the same. In essence it eliminates net metering.

View attachment 196405

Look up house bill 2592

Missouri HB2592 | 2024 | Regular Session

Bill Text (2024-02-01) Modifies provisions for solar energy systems [Read Second Time (H)]

legiscan.com

I will look into what you posted.

 

[rhino]

Here is sample of part of my bill:

 

[MattiFin]

My co-op started what they also call a "demand fee" which is they take whatever your highest peak usage was for the month and then multiply that by a higher rate charge. Is this the same thing? It is basically impossible to "manage" for this to prevent it unless you just don't have any peak usages during the month. I know a person on the co-op board and they did this because it was the cheapest increase in monthly charges for those people on the board based on their previous electric bills when they simulated what affect it would have on them.. as opposed to implementing some other method such as time of use charges where you could at least manage when you used your power.

Load shedding controller can ”manage” the ”impossible” for you. Only limitation is loads you absolutely need to run in the same time.
Also note that peak usage is maximum of 15 minute average. You can still have some really high peak usage like blasting your induction hob on full power simultaneously with other loads as long as the (extreme) peaks are only few minutes long.

 

[vwaudiguy]

Where did you learn about this? I've not heard anything about it yet.

In early January I did learn that Missouri COOPs are also trying to get a law passed to redefine net metering as something that is not metering.

Check out House Bills 1705 and 1854 and see how you read them.

Below is a snip from 1705. From my layman's understanding 1854 reads about the same. In essence it eliminates net metering.

View attachment 196405

it looks like they want the option to bill people with solar differently than people without.

from 1705

58 (2) Offer net metering to the customer-generator pursuant to a commission
59 approved tariff of an electrical corporation or contract approved by the respective
60 governing body of other retail electric suppliers under one of the following options:

61
(a) At rates that [is] are identical in electrical energy rates, rate structure, and
62 monthly charges to the contract or tariff that the customer would be assigned if the customer
63 were not an eligible customer-generator [but shall not charge the customer-generator any
64 additional standby, capacity, interconnection, or other fee or charge that would not otherwise
65 be charged if the customer were not an eligible customer-generator]; or
66
(b) With energy and demand rates, rate structure, and recurring monthly
67 charges that are reasonably calculated to recover that portion of the retail electric
68 supplier's fixed and demand costs that are not eliminated as a result of the operation of
69 the eligible customer-generator's eligible electric energy generating unit


this part i don't like either from both bills.

All qualified electric energy generation units utilizing battery backup
116 shall be installed to operate completely isolated from the retail electric supplier's system
117 including, but not limited to, all neutral connections and grounding points, during times
118 of backup operation

no back feeding the grid with battery power? load sheading?

 

[Mattb4]

...




All qualified electric energy generation units utilizing battery backup
116 shall be installed to operate completely isolated from the retail electric supplier's system
117 including, but not limited to, all neutral connections and grounding points, during times
118 of backup operation

..

The grounding points isolation is going to be a hard one.

 

[Zwy]

I have thought about that but the 80 gallon unit I have now was $2800 before rebates... do I spend another $2800 for a second unit to keep both on heat pump mode or build a battery/inverter setup to run the current unit "off grid". In heat pump mode it uses 400w but in high demand mode it can use 5000w.. it puts off a lot of cold air which is fantastic in the summer but not so good in the winter.. 2 of them running would be crazy I bet.

I'd swap it over to it's own system and I'd use that same system to power critical loads if you don't want to go to a full off grid type system.

Any load you shed off the grid will shave off peak demand. Timers or having an off grid load reduction system are basically the 2 choices if you aren't going fully off grid.

If you have any intention of moving to fully off grid eventually, then start planning and implementing stages now.

 

[vwaudiguy]

Here is sample of part of my bill:
View attachment 196408

Here is sample of part of my bill:
View attachment 196408

Here is mine.. I'm not charged for demand yet but you can see they are tracking it and are ready to charge for it in April.. $3.75 per KW

 

[Zwy]

Here is sample of part of my bill:
View attachment 196408

They charged you $0.15 for Demand charge which is 0Kw? Or 0kW for those moderating.

 

[vwaudiguy]

They charged you $0.15 for Demand charge which is 0Kw? Or 0kW for those moderating.

I bet it's like 0.0004 KW just to small to show on the bill

 

[vwaudiguy]

The grounding points isolation is going to be a hard one.

Separate grounding rod in the earth... or do they want it grounded on another planet?..lol

 

[rhino]

They charged you $0.15 for Demand charge which is 0Kw? Or 0kW for those moderating.

Previous month I've got house entirely off grid and only thing left is lights in a barn which is on grid power still but that's using less than 1kWh a week. So I think issue is they don't show decimal places. "Demand charge" would have been based off of 250W.

 

[vwaudiguy]

I'd swap it over to it's own system and I'd use that same system to power critical loads if you don't want to go to a full off grid type system.

Any load you shed off the grid will shave off peak demand. Timers or having an off grid load reduction system are basically the 2 choices if you aren't going fully off grid.

If you have any intention of moving to fully off grid eventually, then start planning and implementing stages now.

I would love to go fully off grid... the winter would be tough but it could be done. Just keep the grid as a backup battery charger until the system is pefected...

 

[Mattb4]

Separate grounding rod in the earth... or do they want it grounded on another planet?..lol

Not only a separate grounding rod but you could not connect it to your house at all (thus no backup) since all of its electrical components has to be grounded by code. I am not sure they thought that requirement out. But maybe it is simply that they do not want any form of alternate electrical.

 

[Zwy]

I would love to go fully off grid... the winter would be tough but it could be done. Just keep the grid as a backup battery charger until the system is pefected...

Then do it. Energy is not getting cheaper, the recent increases indicate what the long term costs of energy will be.

It's also a form of control, if fascism takes over here in the states, they will use any method for control.

 

[squowse]

I've got a 40 Jinko 410w panel with 2 Solaredge SE10000H-US grid tie inverters. I have been pleased with the system so far as it has overproduced for the year as far as KWhs and kept me paying the minimum fee of $31 for 9 months out of the year. Winter my heat pump just eats the power. Starting in April my utility company will start charging me a "Demand" fee based on the highest Kw usage in any given 15 minute period of a billing cycle.. I'm looking for a way to combat that with the system I currently have. My demand ranges from 11.5kw to 21kw. I'm thinking it may be time to add some batteries and attempt to "peak shave" a bit. I even thought about breaking some of my heavy peak, low Kwh appliances off from the main panel into a critical load panel and try to run them completely off grid. Anyone got any tips ? I use an Emporia Vue to track my usage.

Is that usage by the house, or just usage from the grid?