Just smart enough to be dangerous!

[OldMech]

Howdy Folks!
My wife and I owned a cabin up Maine that was off grid.. I was very skeptical about it, until we started staying there. Spent two winters in that cabin, and I LOVED IT!!!!! We had a dryer, 220 well pump, etc etc... 8 280=300 watt panels and four big deep cycle batteries. We learned to live within the means and it was great! On those CLOUDY SNOWY weeks, we would start the generator when the batts got low, let it run about 4 hours, and we were good to go for a few more days... NOW, I moved back to the midwest, and we are paying 300 to 500 dollars a month for electricity. Not a LOT more stuff in our house than we had in that cabin, an extra freezer, and electric heat pump/AC that we did not have there....
However.. I started asking for estimates to get off grid... one estimate was 140,000.00 dollars Others were not far behind it... and I am just stunned.... so my question is this;
I can run my entire house, through a 60 watt breaker with my 8000 watt Generac generator with 10K surge, so WHY do i need TWO 12000 watt inverters? WHY are they telling me to stay away from wind and go all solar? We CONSTANTLY have wind. I have a windmill air pump for my pond that is hard to turn, and it is ALWAYS turning, so why is wind a bad idea?
I intended to do this myself after the ungodly estimates.. ONE 12k inverter, with 24 400 watt solar panels, two 5k wind generators, and the necessary batteries, as well as going 48 volt... etc.. I was told it wouldnt work, but they don't seem to want to tell me WHY it will not work... So I came to where those with more experience than I Might shed some light on my situation! Sorry for the long text, and THANK YOU for any help!

 

[Porch]

Post how much power you are using a month from your power bill and we will review. Also your location.

I would not be surprised at that quote. For a none DIY system, that sounds about right for a big house.
Batteries are expensive and with rare exception, the ROI is not there if you have grid power there anyway. It's much better and cost effective to sell back to the grid if you can.

As for wind generators, they are only cost effective in select conditions, mostly when solar does not work due to weather. Solar is cheap, has no moving parts, last far longer. If you really want wind, put up a logging Anemometer at the exact same location as you plan to put a wind generator. Log the data over a few months. Then you can figure out how often the wind is at the ideal wind speed the generator wants. Some quick math will tell you the expected output of a wind generator at that location.

 

[John Frum]

I can run my entire house, through a 60 watt breaker with my 8000 watt Generac generator with 10K surge, so WHY do i need TWO 12000 watt inverters?

Redundancy possibly?
I presume this will be the primary power source so I can see desire to build in some fault tolerance.
Or they are just trying to pad the account.

WHY are they telling me to stay away from wind and go all solar? We CONSTANTLY have wind.

Its may outsiders understanding that you need to be minimum 50 feet above the topology(including trees and houses) to get any decent wind production.
Could this explain things?
Alternatively the company may be experienced with solar and not with wind.

I was told it wouldnt work, but they don't seem to want to tell me WHY it will not work... So I came to where those with more experience than I Might shed some light on my situation!

Personally I don't put a lot of stock on opinions not back by reason and evidence.
Especially for things were reason and evidence would be expected.

 

[OldMech]

As far as wind? I live in Iowa, on a hill, farm fields all around. My windmill for the air pump is about 20 ft off the ground, and it takes about 15mph winds to turn it, and it turns 80% of the time... for about trwo weeks in the dead of summer we may have a slack time with little to no wind. In the winter there will be a two week period where we are at -20 with 50 mph winds..
I did look up the wind map for my area and it says this is a good location?
Also as far as electricity use, what we use now will have no resemblance to what we will use off grid. Like I said, we understand. Wash the clothes during peak hours or when we start the generator, hang clothes out to dry etc. Use the perk pot instead of the electric coffee pot etc.. IT IS, or was my intent to set up a system I felt could handle what we need and then adapt it from there... But I will get the electric bills out tonight so I can post that. THANK YOU for the replies!

 

[Smokin]

Install Rocket Stove for Heating. Yupp what he said

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

I would start where I usually recommend people to start: power audit. Make a detailed measurement of what your energy requirements will be - in other words, how many kWh do you need per day, and what will be your autonomous requirements (days to bridge without generation). This will decide your battery size. Once you know that, you can figure out how much your generation needs to be and see if you can do this with wind/solar.

 

[Porch]

As far as wind? I live in Iowa, on a hill, farm fields all around. My windmill for the air pump is about 20 ft off the ground, and it takes about 15mph winds to turn it, and it turns 80% of the time... for about trwo weeks in the dead of summer we may have a slack time with little to no wind. In the winter there will be a two week period where we are at -20 with 50 mph winds..
I did look up the wind map for my area and it says this is a good location?
Also as far as electricity use, what we use now will have no resemblance to what we will use off grid. Like I said, we understand. Wash the clothes during peak hours or when we start the generator, hang clothes out to dry etc. Use the perk pot instead of the electric coffee pot etc.. IT IS, or was my intent to set up a system I felt could handle what we need and then adapt it from there... But I will get the electric bills out tonight so I can post that. THANK YOU for the replies!

Suggestion, don't take guesses when you are dealing with an off-grid system. Take measurements and do the math.

The first wind generator I googled in the 5kw range, takes (11m/s) 24.6MPH winds to generate it's rated power. At 15MPH, it's making around 1.4kw. https://www.ryse.energy/5kw-wind-turbines/ You will need to figure in install cost with this too. 20 feet off the ground gives lots of turbulent air. You really need to measure at the exact location. A wind map does not know about small hills, trees, or many, many other things that can affect airflow.

As for electrical loads, things like electric coffee pots, and even clothes washers don't have the impact you are thinking. They may use a lot of power, but it's for a short time, so it's not a lot of kw/h out of the battery bank. It's the thing like a 100 watt load from a computer, DVR, TV, or other system that runs 24/7 that tends to consume the bulk of power. They really add up. Then you can add in things like big loads that run a long time, like AC and heaters and they can really use a lot of power.

Get a Kill-a-watt meter and start plugging stuff in. Let it run on the item over a week and log down how much power that item uses.
Also, it is far, far more cost effective to not use the power, then to make it. The the Kill-a-watt and other tools to do a complete energy audit of the home. Then figure out what you can trim back on, and what can be replaced with more efficient versions. Installing newer split unit ACs in the select rooms you need them in and not running an entire house AC unit as much can end up costing your less then buying more solar and batteries to run the entire house AC.

Once you have addressed all the ways you can save power, at that time, you can determine if with your now power power bill, if it's worth going off-grid, and if so, what your requirements now are.

Oh, on another thing on the high quotes, electricity is magic to most people. They move a stick on the wall and the room lights up. It's Harry Potter style of magic and they don't want to think about it. In fact, they pay the power company to do all the work so they don't have to think about it.
So when planning out an "off-grid" style of system, the installers will severely oversize the system. This is because the system needs to handle anything added to it in the future, and to handle the hassle of a customer calling every week because they added a hot tub and now the power keeps going out. "Get down here and fix for FREE."

 

[OldMech]

As for electrical loads, things like electric coffee pots, and even clothes washers don't have the impact you are thinking.

My experiences are very different actually living off grid. The washing machine used more power than any other appliance in the house, and the electric coffee maker just didnt work at all. VERY slooooowwlllyyyyyyyyy while you stood there drooling and staring at each tiny DRIP..... Thankfully it was the WIFE that carried it very calmly out the door, set it in the driveway, and ran over it with the truck.... Then we went and bought a perk pot...
The 220 deep well pump was not even an issue since it did not run often or long. Second biggest electric expense was the TV and Xbox we used to access movies and an occasional game on those long winter nights. We had an on demand LP hot water heater and a gas stove. A wood stove and a monitor wall heater that did not even hook up to electricity. So WASH DAY was when the sun was shining or when the generator was running... I will say WAS, maybe there are better appliances etc now.. Already ordered the gas stove to replace the electric range, the hot water heater will be next. Although, I have heard tell that you can use an electric hot water heater as the dump load for the wind turbines?

So let me back up... TWO inverters for redundancy? Are they prone to failure? Does sharing the load through TWO make them last longer?

I will have to look up all of our appliances that we intend to use and find out how much power they use... I was hoping for a simple answer.. IE Yeah do it your way then adjust until you are comfortable!!!! I can see thats not going to happen so I will have to get the calculator out

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

I was hoping for a simple answer

If things were simple, everyone would do it. It's not, and it's highly dependent on local conditions, energy requirements, etc. One size doesn't fit all.

 

[fafrd]

Howdy Folks!
My wife and I owned a cabin up Maine that was off grid.. I was very skeptical about it, until we started staying there. Spent two winters in that cabin, and I LOVED IT!!!!! We had a dryer, 220 well pump, etc etc... 8 280=300 watt panels and four big deep cycle batteries. We learned to live within the means and it was great! On those CLOUDY SNOWY weeks, we would start the generator when the batts got low, let it run about 4 hours, and we were good to go for a few more days... NOW, I moved back to the midwest, and we are paying 300 to 500 dollars a month for electricity. Not a LOT more stuff in our house than we had in that cabin, an extra freezer, and electric heat pump/AC that we did not have there....
However.. I started asking for estimates to get off grid... one estimate was 140,000.00 dollars Others were not far behind it... and I am just stunned.... so my question is this;
I can run my entire house, through a 60 watt breaker with my 8000 watt Generac generator with 10K surge, so WHY do i need TWO 12000 watt inverters? WHY are they telling me to stay away from wind and go all solar? We CONSTANTLY have wind. I have a windmill air pump for my pond that is hard to turn, and it is ALWAYS turning, so why is wind a bad idea?
I intended to do this myself after the ungodly estimates.. ONE 12k inverter, with 24 400 watt solar panels, two 5k wind generators, and the necessary batteries, as well as going 48 volt... etc.. I was told it wouldnt work, but they don't seem to want to tell me WHY it will not work... So I came to where those with more experience than I Might shed some light on my situation! Sorry for the long text, and THANK YOU for any help!

Why are you trying to go off-grid instead of trying to offset as much of your grid consumption as possible?

A hybrid system will allow you to self-consume all of the solar power you generate daily but the grid is there when your batteries are depleted and/or it’s an overcast day (as well as when you are starting a motor that needs power beyond the capability of your inverter to start up).

The battery is likely to be the most expensive element of a hybrid inverter system and so looking over your consumption to determine how much energy you need to store to get through the night is probably the most useful starting point (as others have suggested),

 

[ianganderton]

I was hoping for a simple answer..

lots of people come here looking for those ?

Instead here they get good answers, well worked out, based on experience, detailed and accurate. It’s cool ?

 

[OldMech]

I am going off grid because the energy company has ticked me off. When I called to talk to Alliant Energy about the exorbitant bills, they told me I need to pay someone to do an analysis... I said OKAY? Then what?
"Then you need to fix whatever is causing your high bills?
I told the nice fellow YOU are causing my high bills! You are charging me more than ANY other provider in the area! I use less 1/3 less power than my parents, and over a third less than my neighbor. But you are charging me 2/3 more than they are getting charged. The guy said flat out. Then switch to them, and he hung up....
So... I AM, going to get off grid, even if I have to spend the next ten years doing it. And when i have the system running smoothly, I am going to load up my shotgun and go have a chat with the power meter on MY telephone pole... Then I am going to start sending them bills for storing their destroyed meter on my pole! Then they are going to make me pay for the meter, which i will gladly do because it will be SO worth it! >

 

[Porch]

So I don't know what your cabin had, but as someone who has lived several miles from the nearest power line for going on 6 years now (and has been working with solar since the mid 1990s), I can say every system, and the people using it, are different.

My 1970s Kenmore washing machine, it does impact my system at all, but I tend to use it once or twice a week. I tend to do wash day in the evenings and let the everything dry on the line overnight since I have the weather to support it. Things sun fade less then.

All my appliances work just fine on modern inverters. It's the old generator that the microwave does not like.
My big load, is the 300 watts the computer, CCTV cameras, and supporting equipment draw 24/7. I am always trying to cut that down as it adds up greatly.

So back in the late 1990s early 2000 when Solar cost 10 times it does now, getting a wind turbine was an good bang for the buck. Dumping the excess power to a water heater was a popular thing to do, but it has it's own issues.

1. You need a second source of water heating as you still need hot water if there is no wind or your batteries are not charged.
2. If the water is at temp, you don't want to heat it anymore, so you still need a dump load to do something with that power.
3. If whatever is doing the dump load fails, the wind turbine overcharges the batteries, or over voltages things.

So doing it this way complicates things quite a bit. I tried it, along with an assortment of 500w to 2kw wind turbines. All junked now as even with a good 15MPH wind most days, the hassle and maintenance of the turbines was not worth it.

 

[John Frum]

Oh look, its my stop already.

 

[Porch]

I am going off grid because the energy company has ticked me off. When I called to talk to Alliant Energy about the exorbitant bills, they told me I need to pay someone to do an analysis... I said OKAY? Then what?
"Then you need to fix whatever is causing your high bills?
I told the nice fellow YOU are causing my high bills! You are charging me more than ANY other provider in the area! I use less 1/3 less power than my parents, and over a third less than my neighbor. But you are charging me 2/3 more than they are getting charged. The guy said flat out. Then switch to them, and he hung up....
So... I AM, going to get off grid, even if I have to spend the next ten years doing it. And when i have the system running smoothly, I am going to load up my shotgun and go have a chat with the power meter on MY telephone pole... Then I am going to start sending them bills for storing their destroyed meter on my pole! Then they are going to make me pay for the meter, which i will gladly do because it will be SO worth it! >

So FYI, using them as a grid inter tie, (aka selling it back to them, aka net metering), is sticking it to them. They need to pay for all the infrastructure, and they still need the generation plants for the cloudy days and at night. But if you generate just as much as you use, they can't charge you for all that. Your bill will be zero. You in affect, get to use them as a giant battery, for free.

They hate that and it's why they fought it for decades until laws was passed requiring them to support it.

 

[fafrd]

I am going off grid because the energy company has ticked me off. When I called to talk to Alliant Energy about the exorbitant bills, they told me I need to pay someone to do an analysis... I said OKAY? Then what?
"Then you need to fix whatever is causing your high bills?
I told the nice fellow YOU are causing my high bills! You are charging me more than ANY other provider in the area! I use less 1/3 less power than my parents, and over a third less than my neighbor. But you are charging me 2/3 more than they are getting charged. The guy said flat out. Then switch to them, and he hung up....
So... I AM, going to get off grid, even if I have to spend the next ten years doing it. And when i have the system running smoothly, I am going to load up my shotgun and go have a chat with the power meter on MY telephone pole... Then I am going to start sending them bills for storing their destroyed meter on my pole! Then they are going to make me pay for the meter, which i will gladly do because it will be SO worth it! >

If you are trying to make a political point, then your budget is ‘sky’s-the-limit’ and I don’t understand why you are complaining about the quotes you got.

If your goal is to give as little of your money to the power company every year while investing as little as needed to achieve that result, then stay connected to the grid but use it only for nearly-never-used backup power (like the generator in your cabin).

My utility charges me a minimum of $10/month, which I consider an acceptable cost to have backup power always available.

If you’d prefer to use another generator to cover that situation (so you can blow up your meter), fine, but it also means you’ll need a much more powerful and expen$ive inverter just to cover your worst-case startup surge..

 

[OldMech]

If you are trying to make a political point, then your budget is ‘sky’s-the-limit’ and I don’t understand why you are complaining about the quotes you got.

What???? I... dont even know how to respond? Its not a political point it is a personal one? Alliant will not PAY for extra power, I can only net 0, and they get the extra for free. Its just like the front ditch. I used to trim it, cut it, keep the trees down etc... keep it NICE!!! Then one day I had the sprayer and weed eater and even the chainsaw on my wheeler, out trimming and cutting... and a guy in an orange state truck showed up and started SCREAMING at me that he was going to impound my wheeler etc etc... I was on state land... It was illegal to be on state land and on and on... I rode away... Okay... not a political point, a personal one... now the state takes care of their own ditch, sending crews down to clear and cut.... I am SURE NO ONE cares that I dont do it anymore, so no, I could care less about political anything. Its a personal point that probably means nothing to ANYONE but me?

hmmm, good point fafrd. I 2will have to consider that!

 

[Porch]

Netting 0 is fine and is what I said. That is your goal anyway. Most (if not all), electric company pay very little for power. So the goal is to make it even at the end of the billing period. And the tiny amount of extra power you might send them for free, is not even a rounding error on their books.

 

[fafrd]

If you are trying to make a political point, then your budget is ‘sky’s-the-limit’ and I don’t understand why you are complaining about the quotes you got.

What???? I... dont even know how to respond? Its not a political point it is a personal one? Alliant will not PAY for extra power, I can only net 0, and they get the extra for free. Its just like the front ditch. I used to trim it, cut it, keep the trees down etc... keep it NICE!!! Then one day I had the sprayer and weed eater and even the chainsaw on my wheeler, out trimming and cutting... and a guy in an orange state truck showed up and started SCREAMING at me that he was going to impound my wheeler etc etc... I was on state land... It was illegal to be on state land and on and on... I rode away... Okay... not a political point, a personal one... now the state takes care of their own ditch, sending crews down to clear and cut.... I am SURE NO ONE cares that I dont do it anymore, so no, I could care less about political anything. Its a personal point that probably means nothing to ANYONE but me?

hmmm, good point fafrd. I 2will have to consider that!

Yeah, just to be clear, I’m not suggesting you enter into an approved grid-tied export agreement with your utility.

I’m suggesting you use a hybrid system to cover as much of your self-consumption as you can afford but leave the utility connection in place so that you can ‘use’ the utility to cover backup power (and surge power for motor startup) when solar production is poor (overcast days).

Think about your utility as just replacing the generator at your cabin and perhaps you’ll feel less strongly about smashing that darned meter .

 

[fafrd]

Netting 0 is fine and is what I said. That is your goal anyway. Most (if not all), electric company pay very little for power. So the goal is to make it even at the end of the billing period. And the tiny amount of extra power you might send them for free, is not even a rounding error on their books.

With a hybrid set-up, you don’t export, ever. If there is excess solar power available and the battery is full, that power is wasted (which is safer than exporting it without a NEM agreement).