Leaking Electrolyte from Bigbattery Powerblock

[Hedges]

True enough. The leak was a latent defect. Perhaps all cells are subject to the same failure after a period of time.
Maybe the vent seal is the problem, but only some cells have high enough liquid level to reach that when on their side.

All companies large and small, highly respected and disreputable, have these sorts of problems.
Products of new technologies have high failure rates. Only with massive volume do some brands settle down to highly reliable products. But people continue to buy the unreliable ones as well. Many products today are more complicated than what they replaced, have shorter MTBF and lifespan. But some are more reliable.

I see lots of newbie mistakes in startup companies, repeating what was already a solved problem in industry.
But large respected companies also start making mistakes, whether due to complacency or relying on young whippersnappers fresh out of school and retiring the experienced employees who know how to make things work.

Given the visible inconsistencies, BB ought to do more inspections during assembly. Also ask their engineers, techs, assemblers what would improve quality. For instance, wires so short connectors pulled out. Shorter cable saves money, but for now make them a couple inches longer to eliminate that problem.

 

[Nitr0]

I was about to mount my first of these BigBattery 24v HAWK Powerblocks when I saw Will's video and was already in contact with BigBattery support about a charging issue. Here was their response when I asked if I could continue to mount them in an upright position. It sucks because my space I created for them was assuming 4 of these vertically so I guess it is just a little reconfiguration but its not like I can stack them.

Big Battery Response
"We have our engineers looking into this. We have literally never had another report of this happening to any other customer we've ever sent these batteries to and we've had them a while. We think maybe this was something damaged in shipping potentially? Either way your batteries can be put on their back or side if you'd like, since there is no wrong way for them to be laid down.

Regardless, such a situation is EXACTLY something that would be covered by your warranty for the full 10 years, so either way we'd make sure you're covered."

 

[Hedges]

There is a good chance this particular problem was a supplier issue, and completely outside Big Battery's control.
Welding should be hermetic. Perhaps supplier doesn't perform any tests. (or perhaps it was sealed initially, and leak developed over time)
There is gross leak and fine leak testing. Possible (gross leak) test would be pressure bomb at 2 atmospheres, then immerse in DI water (no electrical conductivity except for contaminants) and look for bubbles.

Seems like keeping them upright will eliminate the problem of electrolyte leaks from the vent.
But if not sealed, it will breath and atmosphere cycles in and out. That would deliver moisture inside, probably degrading the cell. So properly sealed is likely necessary for reliability.

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

True enough. The leak was a latent defect. Perhaps all cells are subject to the same failure after a period of time.
Maybe the vent seal is the problem, but only some cells have high enough liquid level to reach that when on their side.

All companies large and small, highly respected and disreputable, have these sorts of problems.
Products of new technologies have high failure rates. Only with massive volume do some brands settle down to highly reliable products. But people continue to buy the unreliable ones as well. Many products today are more complicated than what they replaced, have shorter MTBF and lifespan. But some are more reliable.

I see lots of newbie mistakes in startup companies, repeating what was already a solved problem in industry.
But large respected companies also start making mistakes, whether due to complacency or relying on young whippersnappers fresh out of school and retiring the experienced employees who know how to make things work.

Given the visible inconsistencies, BB ought to do more inspections during assembly. Also ask their engineers, techs, assemblers what would improve quality. For instance, wires so short connectors pulled out. Shorter cable saves money, but for now make them a couple inches longer to eliminate that problem.

I don’t think it’s just assembly line quality, I also think it’s engineering decisions that have lead to poor quality. This may also mean that upper mgmt made poor decisions too. Lack of design testing, perhaps trying to rush products to market. Maybe these prismatic cells just aren’t the way to go for businesses that want to sell fully assembled batteries unless they put massive disclaimers on the product. “These are made with xyz commodity cells and have been known to have quality issues. They are safe enough to use, but put them outside in a power shed or in a well ventilated space. Most importantly keep them oriented upright. If you smell any type of abnormal odor emanating from them, cease use and call mfg immediately.” You get what you pay for, and these are cheap though usable, but require extra caution.

 

[k3nny]

I was about to mount my first of these BigBattery 24v HAWK Powerblocks when I saw Will's video and was already in contact with BigBattery support about a charging issue. Here was their response when I asked if I could continue to mount them in an upright position. It sucks because my space I created for them was assuming 4 of these vertically so I guess it is just a little reconfiguration but its not like I can stack them.

Big Battery Response
"We have our engineers looking into this. We have literally never had another report of this happening to any other customer we've ever sent these batteries to and we've had them a while. We think maybe this was something damaged in shipping potentially? Either way your batteries can be put on their back or side if you'd like, since there is no wrong way for them to be laid down.

Regardless, such a situation is EXACTLY something that would be covered by your warranty for the full 10 years, so either way we'd make sure you're covered."

@Nitr0 may I ask what your charging issue was?

 

[Nitr0]

@Nitr0 may I ask what your charging issue was?

Schneider CSW4024 Battery Charging Fault

I recently connected my new Schneider Conext SW2024 and I'm having issues getting it to charge my BigBattery 24v Powerblock. I think that I have all the settings to the proper rates to charge the battery based on the battery specs on the website but I still get an error a few minutes into...

diysolarforum.com

I worked with Big Battery for a few hours on it but still didn't revolve it but a couple folks here helped me. I'm still not sure I fully know where I should be setting my top end for the bulk charge to on this battery. The following is what I have it set to and it is working. I'm just concerned I'm not fully charging it.

Bulk Termination Voltage - 27.2v
Bulk/Boost Voltage Set Point - 28v

 

[k3nny]

Schneider CSW4024 Battery Charging Fault

I recently connected my new Schneider Conext SW2024 and I'm having issues getting it to charge my BigBattery 24v Powerblock. I think that I have all the settings to the proper rates to charge the battery based on the battery specs on the website but I still get an error a few minutes into...

diysolarforum.com

I worked with Big Battery for a few hours on it but still didn't revolve it but a couple folks here helped me. I'm still not sure I fully know where I should be setting my top end for the bulk charge to on this battery. The following is what I have it set to and it is working. I'm just concerned I'm not fully charging it.

Bulk Termination Voltage - 27.2v
Bulk/Boost Voltage Set Point - 28v

Yeah, this is something I'll need to sort out on the Victron if I go with the Powerblock. Did Bigbattery not know what the values should be?

 

[Nitr0]

Yeah, this is something I'll need to sort out on the Victron if I go with the Powerblock. Did Bigbattery not know what the values should be?

I'll send you a PM with a spreadsheet that I have regarding all of the settings that I'm using. There is a column with the settings that they gave me but they didn't work completely. It may be something with the Schneider SW more than the battery.

 

[solarbot]

If I understand correctly, the shelf welds would’ve only effected one of the batteries (and it wasn’t the leaky one),

Niggle: two cells, one on each side of the baffle, apparent from the photos and Will's description. Right, neither was the leaking one, which was 2nd from the bottom.

 

[MrGreen]

I noticed the video was made "unlisted". What was the outcome? They went through 100,000 cells in their warehouse, found 11 bad cells, and the assumption is just that you happened to be so unlucky (0.01% chance) that you got a bad cell in yours?

Hello LithiumSolar:

I hope this can bring some clarity.

To be exact, there were (11) Cells with issues out of (10,000) New Lishen Cells purchased from NEC. That is ".0011" of cells having issues which were caught during our (2x) QC Process and never delivered to customers. This was not a design problem but rather a supply chain issue. We take full responsibility for the one (1) leaking cell that managed to slip past our QC dept. to Will Prowse in the Beta unit provided and have replaced this unit with two (2) of our Mass-Production models for free.

To date, we have shipped out over (1,200+) of these Power Blocks and have not had a single customer complain about a leaking cell or pack. If anyone experiences a problem with our batteries - this is what our "10 Year Warranty" was made for. To be clear, (.001%) of our packs will need to be replaced and we are happy to replace these packs for free under our (10) Year Warranty. We have shipped over 37,000 fulfillments without any serous issues and to date we have never had a case of thermal runaway thus our safety rating is higher than Panasonic or LG.

The "Mass Production" model of our "OWL 12V Power Block" and "HAWK 24V Power Block" have been out for a few months now, these models have the following additional safety features as shown below:

1.) Protective 3M Padding on All Sides of the internal case.
2.) Protective 3M Padding on weight disbursement Metal Shelf in Center.
3.) Lock-Nuts incorporated on all PCB/Lead connections for vibration protection.
2.) Added 4th Safety Feature : Built-In Fire Extinguisher on all (Extreme & Max Model) 12V & 24V Power Blocks.

The product Will Prowse reviewed was sent to him (4) Months ago. We have since sent him two (2) units after Mass-Production began. You can see the Mass-Production models shown in his last video and we hope he will open accordingly to show you these updates. Until then, I have taken some recent pictures attached below from our assembly line.

As per the claim that these batteries cannot be installed sideways; If you review the spec sheet for the "170Ah Lishen Cells" used in this design, (Mandarin section 6.5) it states that these cells can be assembled in any direction except for Upside Down. To prevent users from installing Upside Down, we placed the LED read-out and designed a bowed front cover so users will not be placing these cells Upside Down.

In the past (6) Months, we have designed and produced (12) new models of batteries being offered at www.BigBattery.com. As a company, we strive every day to make better products in the USA for our customers and offer these products at the best prices in the country. Our goal is to lower the price of new battery technology for everyone in America. From this experience, We have learned not to share our new products with Will Prowse until they reach Mass-Production.

Thank you for your support as we continue to strive to support our customers.

Humbly,

Eric Lundgren : CEO
www.BigBattery.com

 

[Bud Martin]

So haw many units were made and sold without the added pads and all the added updated? Will the customer be able to get the improved version to replace what the have bought?

 

[solarbot]

Hello LithiumSolar:

Hello Eric. Did the right thing: responded. Took action. Obviously familiar with the forum traffic. Karma gained.

How to do it better: respond right away with "detailed response on the way."

 

[Forbisher]

Hey Eric
Great response.
But you do not need to post the Same reply 3 times!

Hello Hedges,

Thank you for your concern; Vibration issues have already been addressed in mass-production. We do not use our customers to test our products. Once products are in Mass Production, all the problems have been identified and fixed. I hope this can bring some clarity.

To be exact, there were (11) Cells with issues out of (10,000) New Lishen Cells purchased from NEC. That is ".0011" of cells having issues which were caught during our (2x) QC Process and never delivered to customers. This was not a design problem but rather a supply chain issue. We take full responsibility for the one (1) leaking cell that managed to slip past our QC dept. to Will Prowse in the Beta unit provided and have replaced this unit with two (2) of our Mass-Production models for free.

To date, we have shipped out over (1,200+) of these Power Blocks and have not had a single customer complain about a leaking cell or pack. If anyone experiences a problem with our batteries - this is what our "10 Year Warranty" was made for. To be clear, (.001%) of our packs will need to be replaced and we are happy to replace these packs for free under our (10) Year Warranty. We have shipped over 37,000 fulfillments without any serous issues and to date we have never had a case of thermal runaway thus our safety rating is higher than Panasonic or LG.

The "Mass Production" model of our "OWL 12V Power Block" and "HAWK 24V Power Block" have been out for a few months now, these models have the following additional safety features as shown below:

1.) Protective 3M Padding on All Sides of the internal case.
2.) Protective 3M Padding on weight disbursement Metal Shelf in Center.
3.) Lock-Nuts incorporated on all PCB/Lead connections for vibration protection.
2.) Added 4th Safety Feature : Built-In Fire Extinguisher on all (Extreme & Max Model) 12V & 24V Power Blocks.

The product Will Prowse reviewed was sent to him (4) Months ago. We have since sent him two (2) units after Mass-Production began. You can see the Mass-Production models shown in his last video and we hope he will open accordingly to show you these updates. Until then, I have taken some recent pictures attached below from our assembly line.

As per the claim that these batteries cannot be installed sideways; If you review the spec sheet for the "170Ah Lishen Cells" used in this design, (Mandarin section 6.5) it states that these cells can be assembled in any direction except for Upside Down. To prevent users from installing Upside Down, we placed the LED read-out and designed a bowed front cover so users will not be placing these cells Upside Down.

In the past (6) Months, we have designed and produced (12) new models of batteries being offered at www.BigBattery.com. As a company, we strive every day to make better products in the USA for our customers and offer these products at the best prices in the country. Our goal is to lower the price of new battery technology for everyone in America. From this experience, We have learned not to share our new products with Will Prowse until they reach Mass-Production.

Thank you for your support as we continue to strive to support our customers.

Humbly,

Eric Lundgren : CEO
www.BigBattery.com

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

Was Will a customer or quality control? </snarky comment>

 

[Forbisher]

Was Will a customer or quality control? </snarky comment>

Ummmh, Will got the batteries for Free.

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

Ummmh, Will got the batteries for Free.

So quality control, then?

 

[solarbot]

1.) Protective 3M Padding on All Sides of the internal case.
2.) Protective 3M Padding on weight disbursement Metal Shelf in Center.
3.) Lock-Nuts incorporated on all PCB/Lead connections for vibration protection.

Mechanical stability has been improved and stress on the terminal leads reduced, very nice. Not to be a pest, but considerable thermal insulation has been added. It might be no issue at all, but what does the internal temperature do at high continuous discharge, say 2C? (A bit over 8kw.) Or maybe 1C is more realistic.

2.) Added 4th Safety Feature : Built-In Fire Extinguisher on all (Extreme & Max Model) 12V & 24V Power Blocks.

Wow! Details?

I like the giant circuit board, it seems mechanically and electrically sound, especially now that mechanical stress on the terminal leads has been reduced by protective padding. It tidies up the inside vs individual BMS wires and most probably reduces manufacturing cost. Terminal studs instead of spot welds as with cylindrical cells mean the unit is field repairable in the event of cell failure, provided replacement cells can be obtained.

I don't like the placement of the Anderson connector, it prevents tidy side-by-side installation (thermal envelope permitting). Next iteration maybe consider moving it to the front, beside the power switch? It would look just as cool and be more practical.

 

[k3nny]

Mechanical stability has been improved and stress on the terminal leads reduced, very nice. Not to be a pest, but considerable thermal insulation has been added. It might be no issue at all, but what does the internal temperature do at high continuous discharge, say 2C? (A bit over 8kw.) Or maybe 1C is more realistic.

Wow! Details?

Details here ^^^

And here ^^^

 

[Q-Dog]

Maybe they could put a knockout on both sides so the anderson connector could be installed on whatever side works best? That way it would be a lot easier to install 2 of these side-by-side.

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

Does battleborn have fire extinguishers built into their batteries? Do they need to do so? What’s to say this isn’t impressive smoke and mirrors, and/or bandaids to latent underlying real problems?

Edit: I’ll stop now. My intent isn’t to troll. I am just not sold. Time will tell whether these design decisions are good ones.