NEC/Insurance/NFPA

[garetwo]

I saw in one of the threads, perhaps pictures of off-grid, a really nice setup with lots of wiring in, what appeared to be, schedule 40 pvc for water. I did not comment, but I did think about it. I am out in California and just 5 years ago over 10,000 AAA homeowners in Placer County had their homeowner's insurance cancelled. Of course, it was not due to 10,000 people doing solar in water pipe, I doubt even one was for this reason.

I do know if there is a fire and an insurance investigator notes non-compliant stuff that may have been involved in a fire, well, they could deny a claim. I am not saying wiring in water pipe is going to cause a fire.

I have also seen much worse, just since I started helping a couple of friends who are adamant about getting off-grid and not doing anything with permits or inspections. Some of their stuff is...well...alarming. What are your thoughts?

My thoughts - the NEC is put together by the NFPA whose primary (not sole) purpose is protecting lives and property. They have a process for changing their guidelines. I have found, for myself and from what little I know, their "rules" are pretty solid. The people/committees putting them together are typically comprised of people like the crazy smart people in this forum (I am not one of them). So, if we (sometimes me) points out a code deficiency, it may not be because we want to do anything more than help keep you and yours and others safe, enable you to resell your home, or get insurance. If I lived next door to my friend, I would be even more unhappy. Please be safe!!

 

[millsan1]

I'm like you, I kind of know some stuff, but nowhere near as much as people n this forum.

That being said, it is my understanding that Schedule 40 is fine for conduit EXCEPT DC lines inside a structure.

 

[Partimewages]

DIY has notoriously ignored NEC codes but as was stated its there for safety. An old electrician taught me code is the minimum you can always go beyond. One of the first things you learn is ALL installed products have to be UL Listed. If you're using non compliant materials you don't meet code.
Your insurance is a completely different subject. You sign paperwork for an agreement that will stipulate what is covered. If it includes clauses that defer liability for code or UL you might have a problem.

 

[Farm Boy]

There are things I've learned I should have done after doing, from this forum. I think the goal is to fix those errors, and make sure your insurance company knows you have some solar. My company seems to breath easy knowing my panels are mounted in the yard more so than installed on the roof.

 

[Partimewages]

BTW
Wire has never been legal in PVC water pipe!

 

[hwy17]

Fire claim denials are exceedingly rare, far rarer than people think. Fire is the primary hazard homeowners insurance exists to insure against. With unpermitted work being pervasive in many regions, it would pose an existential crisis for the insurance industry and for mortgage lenders if they were able to weasel out of fire claims.

Water damage, weather damage, and all other kids of incidental and maintenance related issues sure they will fight you on that and jack up your rates but for fire, they pay. They might drop you afterwards, but they pay.

Think about it, if someone's home burned down and they were left with no payout, that would be at least local newsworthy: "Family left homeless after unpermitted addition causes fire". But you will find no such stories, because it doesn't happen in the US.

Finding out your policy was cancelled or didn't cover outbuildings, or insured value was lower than the cost to rebuild. That all does happen. People have a fire and find out they either didn't have insurance or didn't have much.

 

[garetwo]

I'm like you, I kind of know some stuff, but nowhere near as much as people n this forum.

That being said, it is my understanding that Schedule 40 is fine for conduit EXCEPT DC lines inside a structure.

Schedule 40 electrical pvc, yes, but water, no. I have buddies that ran hundreds of feet in water pipe underground...They used direct burial cable, so ..no big deal, it keeps the gophers, ground squirrels, voles and moles off the cable at least.

 

[garetwo]

There are things I've learned I should have done after doing, from this forum. I think the goal is to fix those errors, and make sure your insurance company knows you have some solar. My company seems to breath easy knowing my panels are mounted in the yard more so than installed on the roof.

I do not like roof mounted, but most people do not have the space - mine are 220 feet away!

 

[SparkyJJO]

There are things I've learned I should have done after doing, from this forum. I think the goal is to fix those errors, and make sure your insurance company knows you have some solar. My company seems to breath easy knowing my panels are mounted in the yard more so than installed on the roof.

My insurance didn't care one bit that I had panels on my roof. "Ok," they said, and, "Your rates are not changing."

Funny how one insurance couldn't care leas about the same thing another one totally freaks out over.

 

[garetwo]

Fire claim denials are exceedingly rare, far rarer than people think. Fire is the primary hazard homeowners insurance exists to insure against. With unpermitted work being pervasive in many regions, it would pose an existential crisis for the insurance industry and for mortgage lenders if they were able to weasel out of fire claims.

Water damage, weather damage, and all other kids of incidental and maintenance related issues sure they will fight you on that and jack up your rates but for fire, they pay. They might drop you afterwards, but they pay.

Think about it, if someone's home burned down and they were left with no payout, that would be at least local newsworthy: "Family left homeless after unpermitted addition causes fire". But you will find no such stories, because it doesn't happen in the US.

Finding out your policy was cancelled or didn't cover outbuildings, or insured value was lower than the cost to rebuild. That all does happen. People have a fire and find out they either didn't have insurance or didn't have much.

Very true! The insurance is secondary to loss of life though, I don't care what the insurance may pay me. Plus, I do not want to rebuild.

 

[garetwo]

My insurance didn't care one bit that I had panels on my roof. "Ok," they said, and, "Your rates are not changing."

Funny how one insurance couldn't care leas about the same thing another one totally freaks out over.

It is so odd. I think with all of the fires we have had here, things are, perhaps, a bit different than other areas? They really dislike solar water on the roofs.

 

[Partimewages]

Schedule 40 electrical pvc, yes, but water, no. I have buddies that ran hundreds of feet in water pipe underground...They used direct burial cable, so ..no big deal, it keeps the gophers, ground squirrels, voles and moles off the cable at least.

I bet those conductors were not rated for that.

 

[garetwo]

I bet those conductors were not rated for that.

I don't know, I just know they were rated direct burial. For all I know (very very little) they can get too hot now because they may not dissipate heat as well. That would be a funny rating on electrical wire or cable - rated for water pipe. I would love to stamp that on my friend's cable!

Living in the boonies...my first week here a neighbor drives up the now gated drive to tell me "we don't pull permits around here". I think the pitfall is that installation techniques degrade with...well, degrade with something - lack of care, increase of ignorance, "I know better" attitudes...

One of my favorite replies when I comment on a fire hazard (I really mean least favorite) "It has worked that way for 30 years!!". A developing least favorite "none of the kids come down here"

 

[garetwo]

I'm like you, I kind of know some stuff, but nowhere near as much as people n this forum.

That being said, it is my understanding that Schedule 40 is fine for conduit EXCEPT DC lines inside a structure.

There is honesty in that statement and an indicator as to why some things are done that look and function GREAT! but maybe a tad misapplied.

 

[summit]

I really wish all the codes/regulations also state the reason for them. For example, what's the reason for never to run electrical wiring inside PVC for water ? poor heat dissipation ?

A lot of shoddy jobs passed inspection because things look great

 

[timselectric]

what's the reason for never to run electrical wiring inside PVC for water ?

Because PVC plumbing pipe has never been tested for use as electrical conduit.
And it never will be. Because PVC electrical conduit already exists.

 

[50ShadesOfDirt]

Rule #1: where possible, you should build to code ... whether or not you pull a permit
Rule #2: these are "pirate guidelines", not absolute law.
Rule #3: WTF ... What am I trying to achieve. What is the intent of the code (if you can even determine that). What is actually available for me to use, to try and meet the code requirement. Are alternatives even allowed. Many times, these things preclude following code to the letter.

I usually see codes/ahj's/zoning/hoa's/etc. as being more important in relation to where you live. ln a densely populated area, lots of nosy neighbors, code police, taxing AHJ's, and so on? You will follow code, and there will be blood (bureacracy, high costs, etc.) ... when it's all said and done, you'll also pay increased taxes on it.

In a sparcely populated area, nobody cares. You do what you want, and little to no permits are pulled, if folks do their research first. If no nosy neighbors, and no code enforcement, then no problem. You are always responsible, whether you did the work, or are buying the work (buying something existing, with poor work in it) later.

If you start asking who, what, when, where, why, etc. ... there are troubling aspects to the whole industry. Code development, AHJ's, mortgage/insurance, and so on. It's not to the benefit ($$$) of the homeowner, it's for someone else. Thank goodness, there's DIY (if done right) ... this bypasses a lot of madness.

If you are protecting yourself and your family, then try to implement rule #1 ... but, don't blindly follow them, to the exclusion of the other rules.

 

[summit]

Because PVC plumbing pipe has never been tested for use as electrical conduit.
And it never will be. Because PVC electrical conduit already exists.

thanks, how do you know this ? and so technically it's not a code violation to do so ? besides that, is there a reason to avoid using PVC plumbing ? just asking

 

[summit]

If you are protecting yourself and your family, then try to implement rule #1 ... but, don't blindly follow them, to the exclusion of the other rules.

in complete agreement, but then there's that pesky insurance issue: "aha! no permit no pay"

 

[timselectric]

thanks, how do you know this ?

Previous conversations on job sites. Which led to investigation to see who was right.
You have to look at the product information. To see what applications it has been approved for.

and so technically it's not a code violation to do so ?

It is a code violation. Because code requires using products that are listed for the application.

besides that, is there a reason to avoid using PVC plumbing ? just asking

Other than code compliance, and ease of use. No
Both are rated for the same locations. But plumbing fittings are not designed for easy installation of conductors.