Need help/wisdom to decide between Schneider or Victron system

[deepsiks]

Greetings everyone,

I'm currently in the process of researching and planning my off-grid solar power setup. It's going to support some significant power demands including larger motor-driven equipment, a well pump, central HVAC, and a fully electric kitchen. After much research, I've somewhat narrowed down my options to the Schneider XW Pro (x2), a Single Phase 120/240 V, 13.6 kW system, and the Victron Quattro 10k (x2), a Split Phase 120/240 V, 16 kW system. Please see the following rough slides for the basic / core systems and estimated prices.

I'd greatly appreciate hearing from anyone with firsthand experience with either of these systems. Looking to push the pendulum in a direction.







Corrected Victron Parts listing to include Lynx Shunt.

Many thanks in advance!

 

[DIYrich]

Close tossup. My vote is for Schneider. It is UL Listed if you need permits, or will insure the building.

 

[BentleyJ]

Tough choice, both are solid products. I would choose the Schneider primarily due to the redundancy factor with regard to having the full 240V available if one of the inverters needs service.

 

[MisterSandals]

I have several Victron SCCs and shunt as well as a Schneider SW4048.
Hardware is very good for both.
Victron software especially connectivity, flexibility and ease of use is terrific.
Schneider software is largely unusable and buggy. Product support is terrible.

Easy choice for Victron.

 

[Brucey]

Victron diagram shows a lynx shunt but the parts list shows a 2000A smartshunt instead.

 

[1201]

i would go with victron. vrm is awesome and you have more power 16kw from victron system vs 12kw from schneider.

also, the 48 10000 is on sale at altE store for $2300 so big savings there. you may want to hurry on that though

 

[1201]

also,
-the hyperion panels are .34 per watt. the bluesun bifacials are .27/watt for same output
-eg4 30kwh package $8103, diy 28kwh pack, thats takes up less space, would be about $4500
-the charge controller 450/100, will only output about 5.7kw. and you have 9.6kw of panels. so the dc ratio is a little high.
-have you considered ac coupling instead of dc coupling?

 

[deepsiks]

Victron diagram shows a lynx shunt but the parts list shows a 2000A smartshunt instead.

Thanks, good catch. I updated my xls / slide.

 

[UpNorthMan]

Thanks, good catch. I updated my xls / slide.

Midnite Rosie?

 

[deepsiks]

also,
-the hyperion panels are .34 per watt. the bluesun bifacials are .27/watt for same output
-eg4 30kwh package $8103, diy 28kwh pack, thats takes up less space, would be about $4500
-the charge controller 450/100, will only output about 5.7kw. and you have 9.6kw of panels. so the dc ratio is a little high.
-have you considered ac coupling instead of dc coupling?

Thanks for the detailed response! For the charge controller, I will shift to the 450/200, adding a $923.95 to the Victron setup cost.
I briefly looked at AC coupling but since I want to be off-grid I thought DC coupling was the better option / let me know.
Sadly for the sale, I'm not yet stateside and unable to commit at this moment - I'm still stationed in Japan and retire back to the US around the first week of April.

 

[deepsiks]

Tough choice, both are solid products. I would choose the Schneider primarily due to the redundancy factor with regard to having the full 240V available if one of the inverters needs service.

The fall-back redundancy of the Schneider setup is a positive for sure. UL listing also.

 

[deepsiks]

I have several Victron SCCs and shunt as well as a Schneider SW4048.
Hardware is very good for both.
Victron software especially connectivity, flexibility and ease of use is terrific.
Schneider software is largely unusable and buggy. Product support is terrible.

Easy choice for Victron.

Thanks for this, I've read much about the Schneider communications being more 'locked down' whereas Victron is open source, with their GitHub containing projects. Is the software the only negative side you see for Schneider?

 

[deepsiks]

Midnite Rosie?

I haven't done a deep-dive into the Midnite product line, but I'll take a look.

 

[hwy17]

I have an XW now and I am interested in trying the Rosie. There are pros and cons to midnite, I don't know if paralleling is supported yet. But I am attracted to their design methodology. They keep some simple stuff right, like you can still wire the Rosie to a good old light switch or dry contact relay to turn it on and off. I like low tech controls.

Victron is its own world and I am just not interested in it. But people who go into that world generally report satisfaction.

 

[deepsiks]

I have an XW now and I am interested in trying the Rosie. There are pros and cons to midnite, I don't know if paralleling is supported yet. But I am attracted to their design methodology. They keep some simple stuff right, like you can still wire the Rosie to a good old light switch or dry contact relay to turn it on and off. I like low tech controls.

Victron is its own world and I am just not interested in it. But people who go into that world generally report satisfaction.

Thanks for that, what makes you want to pivot away from the XW?

 

[Hedges]

Also consider Midnight (as Up North suggested.) And SMA.

SMA is among the most expensive, but their older equipment (which doesn't meet latest grid-support requirements) is particularly capable and can be had cheaper.
on eBay, you will find 2x SI 6048US + 1x Midnight Classic 250 in a box, for $4000 delivered. Add battery and modest amount of DC coupled PV panels to that. Get used or preferably New Old Stock Sunny Boy GT PV inverter, up to 24kW worth, to complete the system.

2x SI will deliver 22kW for motor starting - what are your requirements?

Offgrid, also consider 120/208Y, if you are interested in 3-phase loads like some shop tools. Buy one more 6048US for that (can also be done with Victron, Schneider, Midnight.)

 

[hwy17]

Thanks for that, what makes you want to pivot away from the XW?

Nothing particularly urgent.

1. I want to take part in an ecosystem that is close to the community and close to the heart of north american inverter design legacy. And something that is active, designed and enjoyed by enthusiasts rather than a great product that is now locked up in a sort of distant corporate overloard, as the XW is.

2. I really want that relay on off control, lol. In my custom system, that would allowed my BMS to turn the inverter off to stop the load, instead of having to open a contactor under load.

 

[hwy17]

Oh I would add this. You might want to actually select or at least research your battery options first, and plan your communication or non-communication strategy. I ended up going DIY for batteries and non-communication to the inverter. Which is why I would like relay control.

Most people end up making the inverter the brains, in which case you are probably going to want battery comms compatibility.

You can do it the other way around, choose inverter and then find compatible batteries. But you don't want to lock yourself out of your best battery option. If I was going non-DIY I would be looking at Powerpros probably.

 

[1201]

Thanks for the detailed response! For the charge controller, I will shift to the 450/200, adding a $923.95 to the Victron setup cost.
I briefly looked at AC coupling but since I want to be off-grid I thought DC coupling was the better option / let me know.
Sadly for the sale, I'm not yet stateside and unable to commit at this moment - I'm still stationed in Japan and retire back to the US around the first week of April.

If I could only choose one I would choose ac coupling, but it depends on when you use your power. Both work off grid just fine. I used ac coupling off grid for a month before I connected to the grid.

If you are going to use more power during sun hours ac coupling is more efficient.
It also increases your daytime inverting capacity, and during the daytime the cheap, silent pv inverter carries most of the load extending the life of your battery inverter.
-Daytime efficiency can be as high as 98.5% but charging efficiency is as low as 84% so what goes directly to loads is highly efficient but what goes to battery is very inefficient.
-the mppts of a pv inverter usually allows higher voltages . 600v, vs 450v for the victron charge controller.
Its cheaper. You can get an 11k goodwe or growatt inverter for less than $1500, vs about $2k for the victron 450 200 or midnite Barcelona.

If most of your loads are outside of sun hours then the DC coupled charge controller is going to be more efficient.
-Mppt to battery is about 99% efficient but it all has to be inverted to AC which usually lands around 92-94% efficiency all the time.

 

[MisterSandals]

Is the software the only negative side you see for Schneider?

Yes, its only the firmware/software and lack of support that makes this unusable. I am 12 weeks after my install/commission and have opened 8 cases with tech support on software glitches. They have acknowledged the bugs and promised a fix. 5 Weeks later i ask about the status of a fix and they said they tested it again and could not reproduce the problem. They went back to asking me what firmware i was using so back to square 1 on something they saw when connected to my system several times and then reproduced on their end.

I have to change settings twice a day to switch between charging and inverting (its really hard to believe!). I am in the same boat as many others here having to use a Pi or PLC to monitor and manage my inverter because there are so many shortcomings and bugs. Still futzing with getting a Pi to do the work, maybe a few more weeks of work.

If you're up for a looooong road of frustration and fiddling, Schneider is all that. Beware!