diy solar

diy solar

Our NEW GO-TO LiFePO4 vendor...09.20.21

Bought 16 of the LF280K cells plus their JBD 7S-20S-200A BMS through Jenny from the Houston warehouse.

All cells look pristine, all were within 7 mV of each other, near 3.3v. Everything is now up and working.
The JBD BMS has no trouble keeping them in balance after I first wired them in parallel and did a top balance.

Here's some documentation on the above items:
The Android ap here is working great with the JBD BMS via bluetooth: https://jiabaidabms.com/pages/download-files

You can get cells more cheaply if shipped to you direct from China, though I did not want to wait months for them to arrive
though shipping times should be getting more reasonable if the pandemic continues to ease.
Shipping from China, Jenny may be able to personally inspect the cells for you before they go out.
My understanding is that product shipped from China that is found defective can be returned to the Houston warehouse.

Almost all reports I see in this forum indicate that product from this supplier is good.
Keep in mind that those few who do receive damaged goods are more inclined to speak up here.
Every vendor will occasionally ship something that should not have gone out, the test is in how they respond.
I made a video recording as the boxes were opened so if there was damage it would be clear they arrived that way.

It would be very easy for an end user to bloat the cells during an initial top balance
if the cells were left too long above 3.45V.

(Edited some of the URL's 10 minutes after posting)
 
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This is my first step away from lead acid for off grid household power, so correct me if I'm wrong.
> Why would you think that?
It took me about a week or so to top balance the parallel set of 16 batteries at 15 Amps from a CC-CV supply.
My understanding is that these batteries can be fully charged if left at 3.45 volts for long periods.
Leaving them for a few days at 3.625 would overcharge them, this is why they should be
top balanced in stages, to 3.4v, then occasionally checked as it goes to 3.45, then watched carefully to 3.5 and 3.6.
Overcharging them can cause them to bloat, as could an inaccurate max voltage setting.

I don't know how high the voltage can be or for how long till significant bloat occurs on these particular cells.
Will do my best not to find out.
I suspect the next dozen responses will have a dozen different opinions on this.

Regarding QR codes: I downloaded the ap, but my cell phone camera did not do any good
with these QR codes. Print is small and apparently not the number of characters expected.
May need to review that youtube tutorial.

Regarding the JBD xiaoxiang android bluetooth ap I am using, I can't seem to set parameters
such as "Nominal Capacity", which is frozen at 200AH.
"Charge Overcurrent and "Discharge Overcurrent" are both 300A, which is fine with me.
But "Hardware Overcurrent Protection" is too low at 100A, I bought a 200A BMS for a reason.
The Overkill manual warns against changing the parameter (assuming I could).
 
Finally succeeded in typing in a QR code manually:
EVE Power, Cell, LiFePO4, LF280K, 280Ah, 26/11/2021, City: Jingmen, Factory line: 83, Factory task: 24, Number of cell: 1354
 
Tried a different phone with better camera, caught all 16 QR codes with some trouble.
All were made last December and first half of January, except one from late November.
Perhaps some spec didn't quite make it into somebody's A+ list.
So far I am very happy, don't see anything to complain about.

These were ordered on June 1, arrived via UPS parcel service from Houston on June 7.
We're in a remote corner of Oregon, that may have added a day or two.
Packed two to a box with lots of styrofoam, 26 lbs each box, extremely well protected.
Apparently they might also arrive via an LTL (less than truck) service, a truck with a lift-gate.

manufacturers product_types cell_types model_codes capacity production_date production_city factory_product_line factory_task_order number_of_cell_produced_that_day original_qr_content
EVE Power Cell LiFePO4 LF280K 280Ah 14/1/2022 Jingmen 84 38 8856 04QCB76843800JC1E0008856
EVE Power Cell LiFePO4 LF280K 280Ah 16/12/2021 Jingmen 84 69 5142 04QCB76846900JBCG0005142
EVE Power Cell LiFePO4 LF280K 280Ah 26/11/2021 Jingmen 83 24 1354 04QCB76832400JBBT0001354
EVE Power Cell LiFePO4 LF280K 280Ah 15/12/2021 Jingmen 84 68 6098 04QCB76846800JBCF0006098
EVE Power Cell LiFePO4 LF280K 280Ah 15/1/2022 Jingmen 83 39 1188 04QCB76833900JC1F0001188
EVE Power Cell LiFePO4 LF280K 280Ah 14/1/2022 Jingmen 84 38 8974 04QCB76843800JC1E0008974
EVE Power Cell LiFePO4 LF280K 280Ah 16/12/2021 Jingmen 83 68 1595 04QCB76836800JBCG0001595
EVE Power Cell LiFePO4 LF280K 280Ah 6/1/2022 Jingmen 84 25 6896 04QCB76842500JC160006896
EVE Power Cell LiFePO4 LF280K 280Ah 7/1/2022 Jingmen 84 25 6212 04QCB76842500JC170006212
EVE Power Cell LiFePO4 LF280K 280Ah 10/12/2021 Jingmen 84 66 6278 04QCB76846600JBCA0006278
EVE Power Cell LiFePO4 LF280K 280Ah 9/1/2022 Jingmen 83 35 362 04QCB76833500JC190000362
EVE Power Cell LiFePO4 LF280K 280Ah 29/12/2021 Jingmen 83 61 371 04QCB76836100JBCX0000371
EVE Power Cell LiFePO4 LF280K 280Ah 4/12/2021 Jingmen 83 64 629 04QCB76836400JBC40000629
EVE Power Cell LiFePO4 LF280K 280Ah 15/1/2022 Jingmen 84 39 5426 04QCB76843900JC1F0005426
EVE Power Cell LiFePO4 LF280K 280Ah 26/12/2021 Jingmen 84 19 6830 04QCB76841900JBCT0006830
EVE Power Cell LiFePO4 LF280K 280Ah 15/1/2022 Jingmen 83 38 143 04QCB76833800JC1F0000143
 
It took me about a week or so to top balance the parallel set of 16 batteries at 15 Amps from a CC-CV supply.
My understanding is that these batteries can be fully charged if left at 3.45 volts for long periods.
Leaving them for a few days at 3.625 would overcharge them, this is why they should be
top balanced in stages, to 3.4v, then occasionally checked as it goes to 3.45, then watched carefully to 3.5 and 3.6.
Overcharging them can cause them to bloat, as could an inaccurate max voltage setting.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information, but my experience with 48 EVE cells says:
3.45v on a cell is 98 to 99% full.
3.65v on a cell will not cause bloating. Left there for extended periods, it will cause degradation, don't leave them at 100% charge for extended periods (i.e. more than a day or two).
The "stages" theory of top balancing is just silly. Charge them up as quickly as possible. Best way to do this is to use a BMS and charge a pack until high voltage disconnect (you did test that works on your BMS first, right?). Then you can parallel and finish the top balance.



I don't know how high the voltage can be or for how long till significant bloat occurs on these particular cells.

As long as your measurement is accurate, EVE cells will NOT bloat at 3.65v.

Regarding QR codes: I downloaded the ap, but my cell phone camera did not do any good
with these QR codes. Print is small and apparently not the number of characters expected.
May need to review that youtube tutorial.

Regarding the JBD xiaoxiang android bluetooth ap I am using, I can't seem to set parameters
such as "Nominal Capacity", which is frozen at 200AH.
"Charge Overcurrent and "Discharge Overcurrent" are both 300A, which is fine with me.
But "Hardware Overcurrent Protection" is too low at 100A, I bought a 200A BMS for a reason.
The Overkill manual warns against changing the parameter (assuming I could).

Older versions of the app have problems with the newer BMS. Even then, some settings need to be changed using the PC software.
If you are using Apple, you have to pay for a version that is out of date, and that will allow you to change settings.

 
John, thanks for the reply!
I'll try the PC software next, see if I can clean up the BMS settings.
Eventually would prefer this on a chromebook under linux: https://github.com/sshoecraft/jbdtool

I am very curious if my BMS will cut out if the discharge load exceeds the
"Hardware Overcurrent Protection" of 100A even though the "Discharge Overcurrent" is at 300A
I'm worried that my Magnum PT-100 PV charger (and MS4448PAE inverter)
will blow due to a voltage spike when the BMS drops out with some obscure fault when charging at 100A.
Maybe best to add a series string of 4 car batteries in parallel with the LiFePO4 bank and BMS
to absorb such a spike?

Like I say, lots of opinions out there on how to top balance.
My BMS shows all cells in balance (verified with a good DVM) so I did something right.
For now, I'll stick with slow and conservative.

Haven't seen much said on exactly what happens if you leave it for a day at 3.65v,
just plenty of warnings not to do so (and others who don't seem to think it's an issue).
Does Eve say how long that 3.45v is on the cell?
My guess is the cell is at their 98 or 99% the minute it arrives at 3.45v, and that after many hours
it will be at 100%. But the cell is at 100% the moment the voltage reaches 3.65v.
This will vary a bit depending on the charging current used and temperatiure.

Spent a week balancing 16 cells in parallel using one of these for monitoring with a DVM.
$12usd: https://www.amazon.com/Aceirmc-Converter-Adjustable-Regulator-Protection/dp/B0823MM1DV
Worked well enough but voltage setting was a bit touchy hence my mention of inaccuracies.
Calibrated the current by measuring mV across a foot of 14awg copper house wiring, 2.58 ohms/1000ft.
Also used 14awg to wire the cells in parallel, but had 30mv of drop with the currents involved so would advise
using the busbars instead.

Using four red 80x30mm die springs in a compression box, likely another case of being overly conservative.
Here's a good source: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07GSNCYNK
The cells want 300kgf, so 75kg per spring, spring constant is 7.03kg/mm, so spring deflection is 75/7.03=10.67mm
Put roofing felt (tarpaper) between cells to make certain the metal cases didn't short through the thin plastic covers.
Rods are rebar with 1/2" bolts welded to one end (what I had on hand), a hole drilled in the other for
a washer and a nail. 3/4" plywood endplates, but still needs channel iron braces (drilled for the rods)
to keep it from bending. I'm building double wide, planning to eventually go 2P16S. For a single row of cells,
could get by with the yellow 80x30mm die springs at 1.8kg/mm. (Edit: Best to use all red springs. See post #884.)

Used carbon grease on the bus bars to ensure good contact, but wouldn't do it again.
Messy stuff, whenever I work on the batteries now I have to spend 15 minutes
cleaning up my hands and anything they touched.
 
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I am very curious if my BMS will cut out if the discharge load exceeds the
"Hardware Overcurrent Protection" of 100A even though the "Discharge Overcurrent" is at 300A
I'm worried that my Magnum PT-100 PV charger (and MS4448PAE inverter)
will blow due to a voltage spike when the BMS drops out with some obscure fault when charging at 100A.
Maybe best to add a series string of 4 car batteries in parallel with the LiFePO4 bank and BMS
to absorb such a spike?
I can answer this in regards to the inverter, though I use a different SCC. My DALY BMS all shutdown several time due to a mistaken settings on my SCC. (Morningstar TS MPPT-60 x four) The MS4448PAE showed a spike when the BMS's shut down.

In my case one BMS shutdown, then a second one then the last shut down and the inverter and the BMK recorded a 75 volt spike. (you could see this as the incoming amps dropped with each BMS shutting down.)
This happened several times as the inverter tried to power the house straight off of the panels without the batteries in line. they literally fluttered off and on 30 or 40 times in the case of one afternoon while we were gone from the cabin.

This did no damage to the inverter. (this was not the inverter taken out by the lightening strike, it was the replacement unit.)

obviously I would not recommend doing this, but mine survived the above three times in one week before we got back and I discovered the issue and corrected it.

YMMV.
 
Ken, Thanks for the data point. Indeed, "YMMV". Lots of variables here, including how much current the charge controller is sourcing when the fault occurs, how fast the electronics in your charge controller can react to reduce current flow, how large the caps are in the charge controller and inverter.
Would be nice to have a simple, cheap, small, generic, and reliable cure for this. Perhaps a high voltage sense that turns on a bunch of FET's to divert power to a dump load? Should be momentary, so not a lot of energy needs to be dissipated in that dump load, and the FET's could be relatively wimpy. I'm not keen to keep a lead acid battery in parallel with the LiFePO4 bank due to cost, size, and maintenance issues.
 
Ken, Thanks for the data point. Indeed, "YMMV". Lots of variables here, including how much current the charge controller is sourcing when the fault occurs, how fast the electronics in your charge controller can react to reduce current flow, how large the caps are in the charge controller and inverter.
Would be nice to have a simple, cheap, small, generic, and reliable cure for this. Perhaps a high voltage sense that turns on a bunch of FET's to divert power to a dump load? Should be momentary, so not a lot of energy needs to be dissipated in that dump load, and the FET's could be relatively wimpy. I'm not keen to keep a lead acid battery in parallel with the LiFePO4 bank due to cost, size, and maintenance issues.
Well it worried me immensely when it happened but after I figured out the settings i no longer have that particular issue. basically with 4 solar controllers I had programmed three of them properly but the last one I somehow did not save the program changes. this was fine until I added my new panels to the mix and that controller ended up with 2.4kw on it vice the 1.2kw it started with. it was charging so fast that it would start the above issues at about 11:00 am as it would have charged the batteries by then, and went into trying to overcharge which the BMS's would then drop out to protect the packs. (thank you sweet baby Jesus.) once I figured out that the one controller was not matching the others and reprogrammed it to match the others problem was solved.
 
Good to hear that you found a cure for your problem. But there are many potential faults that could cause the BMS to cut out the battery, perhaps just a bad crimp job on a sense wire to one of the cells. (I crimped and then soldered, but there's 100 other potential points of failure.) Have seen several reports in the forum of blown inverters and/or chargers from such a spike, would be odd if nobody is selling a good solution to this.
I asked Magnum/Sensata via email (once, should pester them more), no response yet. Asked Backwoods Solar from whom I bought the Magnum gear, their response was that I should always throw the PV breaker before disconnecting the battery.
 
I asked Magnum/Sensata via email (once, should pester them more), no response yet.
Yeah when I bought my first Magnum about 12 years ago they were the best thing since sliced bread. would answer quickly if you had an issue they would remedy it. then they got bought out by Sensata and its been a downhill slide for them.

Honest to god if i had not already invested in them I would jump to another 1st tier maker. but I have two of the MSPAE 4448's a MS2012 (thats 12 years old and still chugging along) along with all of the accessory modules . Both of the 4448's I bought after Sensata bought them out. When the 1st one went down from a lightening strike I immediately ordered another and at the same time asked them about returning it for repairs (not under warranty either) and got led around for about 6 weeks before I lost my cool and ripped several of them new backsides via email and via phone. I have not contacted them since but I am not that happy with their service anymore. the units still seem pretty robust but their after service has decidedly went downhill.
 
Yeah when I bought my first Magnum about 12 years ago they were the best thing since sliced bread. would answer quickly if you had an issue they would remedy it. then they got bought out by Sensata and its been a downhill slide for them.

Honest to god if i had not already invested in them I would jump to another 1st tier maker. but I have two of the MSPAE 4448's a MS2012 (thats 12 years old and still chugging along) along with all of the accessory modules . Both of the 4448's I bought after Sensata bought them out. When the 1st one went down from a lightening strike I immediately ordered another and at the same time asked them about returning it for repairs (not under warranty either) and got led around for about 6 weeks before I lost my cool and ripped several of them new backsides via email and via phone. I have not contacted them since but I am not that happy with their service anymore. the units still seem pretty robust but their after service has decidedly went downhill.

Bought the MS4448PAE in 2013, the PT-100 in 2016, both units have been rock solid. Was still seeing a quick and complete response to questions last time something came up in 2020.
Regarding your problem, the three BMS's shut down one by one. Outcome may have been different if they all shut down at once, causing a much bigger spike.
 
Hi all.
For the ones in Europe, it seems Docan has a warehouse in Poland now ?.
We can have cells in less than a week.
Nice
 
I meant to be adding to this thread but have been busy with other things. Anyway, I ordered 16x 280's from Jenny out of China on May 26th and received them July 6th and 7th. They all look really nice (no bulging, dings, or dents) and are the same voltage (3.33). I wish I had asked to buy some extra buss bars so I could top balance them all together but oh well. We'll see how they test out but overall I am satisfied with Docan and Jenny. Just wanted to share my experience.
 
You can use 10g wire with a couple of lugs for top balancing - it's all low current anyway.
It can take a LONG time, so most will connect in series with the bms and charge them to 90-95%, then do the top balance. You'll probly still have to do some fine tuning.
 
That first buy of 16 LF280K cells plus the JBD 200A BMS from Houston have been working great.
I have now placed a buy of 16 additional LF280K cells plus 16 extra busbars to be shipped from China.
The following describes how my buy process went.
Should be the same for any customer in the continental US.
Prices haven't changed for nearly 6 months now.

Each cell comes with one busbar, I bought 16 additional busbars at $0.75 each in the second buy,
needed to connect all 32 cells in a 2p16s configuration of two rows.
The busbars are sized for a single row of cells, using those busbars on two rows of LF280K cells
leaves a one inch gap between the rows. The older version of the EVE 280AH cell has the terminals
placed differently, and would have no gap between rows.

Each cell shipped from Houston costs $149.00 and the JBD 200A BMS costs $145.00, shipping included.
The price for cells shipped from China is lower at $110.00, but shipping is not included in that price.
Whether you have them shipped from Houston or China, you can work with Jenny Wu: jennywu896@gmail.com
or Amy Zheng: amy@docanpower.com who I believe are both based in China and both employees of Docan.
You could buy through the Houston website at www.powerwholesale.net without a salesperson,
but the price is the same and you then don't have someone at Docan to answer questions and
advocate for your interests. I believe they can inspect cells that ship from China (but not Houston).

Alibaba charges a fee of 2.04% on these transactions whether shipping from Houston or China.
You could pay for the merchandise, any shipping fees, plus the Alibaba fee with a wire transfer.
Using a credit card is safer but incurs an extra 3.00% charge from Alibaba to cover credit card fees.
Buying direct from Alibaba with my Mastercard failed, so instead bought through a paypal account
and paid paypal with that same credit card, still just an extra 3.00% charge.


First buy of 16x EVE LF280K cells plus the JBD 200A BMS, ordered May 31 2022, shipped from Houston:
Total value of merchandise: 16*149.00 + 145.00 = $2529.00
Shipping from Houston via UPS: $0
Alibaba transaction fee: $51.60 (2.04% of $2529.00)
Additional fee for using a credit card: $77.16 (3.00% of $2529.00+51.60)
Total cost as billed to my credit card: 2529.00+51.60+77.16 = $2657.76

Second buy of 16x EVE LF280K cells plus 16 extra busbars, ordered on July 20, 2022, shipped from China:
Total value of merchandise: 16*110.00 + 16*0.75 = $1772.00
Shipping fee from China, arrives via UPS: $276.00
Alibaba transaction fee: $41.80 (2.04% of $1772.00+276.00)
Additional fee for using a credit card: $62.49 (3.00% of 1772.00+276.00+41.80)
Total cost as billed to my credit card: 1772.00+276.00+41.80+62.49 = $2152.29


Total cost of just the 16 EVE LF280K cells shipped from Houston on a credit card including fees
should be around 16*149*1.0204*1.03 = $2505.61
Total cost of just the 16 EVE LF280K cells shipped from China on a credit card including fees
should be around (16*110+276)*1.0204*1.03 = $2139.86
So buying from China saves 2505.61 - 2139.86 = $365.75 on 16 cells
but takes a month or two to arrive instead of a week or less from Houston.
Regardless whether you buy from China or Houston, report any problems to your
salesperson (Jenny or Amy), and any defective product is shipped to Houston.

Well, that's how I understood the transaction, let me know of any errors in the above.

Edit: I'm in the state of Oregon, which has no sales tax.
 
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Just John wrote: The "stages" theory of top balancing is just silly. Charge them up as quickly as possible. Best way to do this is to use a BMS and charge a pack until high voltage disconnect (you did test that works on your BMS first, right?). Then you can parallel and finish the top balance.

Browneye wrote: It can take a LONG time, so most will connect in series with the bms and charge them to 90-95%, then do the top balance. You'll probly still have to do some fine tuning.

To which I say: I wouldn't trust several thousand dollars worth of new cells to a new BMS. To thoroughly verify the BMS would require verifying that it cuts out when any one of my 16 cells hits the max voltage. What's more, given how opaque the manuals and software tools are, I wouldn't trust that I even understand my BMS on a first attempt at use. I am far more confident in a cheap CC-CV power supply that I can easily test for proper function. Also, when the BMS contactor cuts out to shut down charging when that first cell hits 3.6 Volts, will the resultant voltage spike blow my $1000 charger? I'm quite fine with spending a week waiting for the voltage to arrive to 3.4v, then watch it closely as I step it higher. Having browsed the forum some, my impression is that most do an initial parallel top balance just like I did. But clearly opinions vary, on this and seemingly every other tidbit of advice on LiFePO4's.

Unless the cells arrive pretty much top balanced already, doing a series balance as described by Just John and Browneye only gets you to where the first cell is topped out. You then have to take it out and repeat for each of the other cells. Wiring in parallel seems far more straightforward. On this next set of 16 cells, I will parallel balance using runs of 10awg copper down the cells, going down one side of the screw terminals then looping back on the other side of those same screw terminals to halve the resistance even further and keep things mechanically balanced.

However, if you are doing many somewhat matched cells and know your equipment, doing an initial series charge could be the best way to go. The JBD BMS I have only does passive balancing at around 200ma. If you have a BMS with active balancing at several Amps it might fine to let the BMS handle the entire initial top balance, but with a reduced charging current after the BMS contactor first cuts out due to a high cell voltage.

My first batch of 16 cells were very close in voltage, all within 10mv. If they aren't that closely matched, might be best to first wire them up in parallel
with 12 inch lengths of 14awg wire till they all even out. At 2.58 ohms per 1000 ft, the two lengths of 12 inch wire between two adjacent cells would have a total of 0.00258*2 Ohms resistance. An assumed worst case difference of 0.5 Volts between cells would cause a current of (0.5 Volts)/(2*0.00258 Ohms) = 97 Amps and each 12 inch wire would be dissipating half of (0.5 Volts * 97 Amps), or about 24 Watts.

Once the cell voltages agree within 10mV, then wire them all in parallel with that 10awg wire as suggested by Browneye. The EVE datasheet says my LF280K cells have an internal resistance of around 0.00025 Ohms, which should keep currents from a 10mV difference well below 100 Amps. The low resistance of 10awg copper wire should keep all cells very close to the same voltage even when driving the array of cells with 20 Amps from my cheap CC-CV supply.: https://www.amazon.com/Aceirmc-Converter-Adjustable-Regulator-Protection/dp/B0823MM1DV

(The bottom three paragraphs were severely edited 8 hours after first posting)
 
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