Possible To Off-Grid In Condominium Without Touching Common Electrical/Meter Room in California?

[SamIam]

Hi everyone:

This is my first post, but I believe that it is a novel and interesting question for this forum. After watching Will Proste's excellent YouTube titled, "Automatic Transfer Switch for Small DIY Solar Systems: How it Works, Application and Instructions", I have the following question:
Is it possible to completely power our condominium unit using our existing 100amp electrical panel without touching common electrical/meter room in California?

More related questions/issues:

1. Can 100% of the equipment be located in our condo and on the roof in California?
   1. Can a massive Automatic Transfer Switch be located inside our condo's closet next to the 100amp panel?
      1. If so, please describe the capacities and capabilities that it would require, and recommend specific makes and models, if possible.
   2. Can all of the 120v, and all of the 240v circuits in our condo's excising panel and walls be 100% served by PV/battery?
   3. Would it still be best for the battery bank to be 48v?
   4. Should I be concerned because the 42-year-old electrical panel has aluminum busbars?
   5. Am I correct in thinking that a separate DC circuit can branch off from the huge battery bank directly to a Tesla car charger under our condo, and that the over-sized battery bank would not jeopardize the safety of the existing 100amp panel/circuitry/wiring?
      1. Any specific examples or advice?
   6. Any examples of this having been done successfully, or unsuccessfully?
2. California / SDG&E:
   1. Since the Automatic Transfer Switch will not be connected inside the common meter room, will it be completely impossible to grid-tie and contribute to the "public" grid using the roof-mounted PV?
   2. Assuming that it will not be possible to tie into the grid from inside our condo, then would it indeed be impossible to qualify for any Federal, State or utility incentive/taxrebate or excess-solar-electricity-credit programs?
      1. Would it be possible/acceptable/qualified to do Net Energy Metering remotely, from inside the condo?
      2. Here's a link to current SDG&E/Sempra info: https://www.sdge.com/residential/solar/getting-started-with-solar
   3. The State of California requires all HOAs to make reasonable accommodations enabling owners and residents to add PV to their condos/apartments, and the building roofs.

Even assuming that we would not qualify for any incentives/rebates/credits, what still attracts me to such a system are the following potential benefits:

• My extraordinary Wife and I could use AC extravagantly without guilt or utility costs.
• No added expense of running long ugly heavy-gauge copper wiring for long runs to the building's common electrical/meter room.
• Our energy would be sourced from 100% solar, with no coal, gas or nuclear sources.
• I could finally justify getting my Wife a Tesla, and we could charge it at home.
• We would be unaffected by increasingly-frequent SDG&E blackouts and brownouts.
• We would increase the value of our property.
• I am our HOA's President, and I like to make responsible architectural upgrades that other owner's can reproduce, and they can refer to my approved building permits and inspections as precedent.
• My audiophile stereo equipment would be fed with pure sinewave current with very consistent voltage.
• If reasonable/responsible, then this approach would be especially attractive to high-rise (and very long mid/low-rise like ours) condominium and apartment owners and residents, where the electrical/meter room is located hundreds of stories below the condo/apartment.

All on-topic responses are welcome, and if you are not 100% certain of the validity of any aspects of your response, please clarify.

Many thanks!

 

[Bri from IA]

You might enjoy checking out the SolArk-8K and 12K equipment. It's UL listed and built for parallel utility situations. I'm using my Sol-Ark in off-grid mode, but it has many parallel-utility and load management modes. You would need to check with your utility if it will be allowed, as they all have their own rules.

It seems Sol-Ark are now touting a transfer switch in their unit.

Sol-Ark 12K All-In-One

Sol-Ark® 12K-2P solar hybrid inverter is a powerful personal power plant that is scalable, plug-n-play, and a reliable home backup. Learn more.

www.sol-ark.com

Mine is about 12-18 months old, and doesn't have that. I have no complaints about mine at all. It took a while to get installed, but was operational nearly a year ago.

 

[mopat]

Is it possible to completely power our condominium unit using our existing 100amp electrical panel without touching common electrical/meter room in California?

no

 

[SamIam]

SolArk-8K and 12K equipment

Thanks for your prompt and thgorough response Bri. The SolArk systems look well sorted out.

 

[SamIam]

no

Hi Mopat, thanks for your prompt reply. Care to elaborate?

 

[Steve_S]

I survived as a Board Member for two condo corporations. 1 an Apartment Complex, another a Townhouse/Garden Home complex.
I think on the issue of an Apartment, the answer is fairly obvious, it won't happen, I doubt you would be allowed mount anything on the balcony.
Any Town house / Row House / Garden Home is also Highly Unlikely. Typically, a Condo Corp is responsible for the exterior shell, (cladding, roofing, windows/doors etc) all dependent on the "Charter" (May have different name) as well as exterior maintenance.

You have to go through the Condo Corps Rules/By-Laws / Charter to discover what you can & cannot do. Even if Allowable, you would likely need to submit a plan etc for approval.

Condo Corps are an absolute PITA and there is so much pettiness and silliness as people jockey to "be important". They may have been a reasonable idea in the mid 70's when Condo's started BUT they became something "other"... I wish you the Best of Luck but honestly, get out while you can, get a real piece of land somewhere with a small house and taste freedom/independence.

 

[SamIam]

You have to go through the Condo Corps Rules/By-Laws / Charter to discover what you can & cannot do. Even if Allowable, you would likely need to submit a plan etc for approval.

Condo Corps are an absolute PITA...

Hi Steve:
Our condo complex is pretty progressive, and the State of California as well as our HOA Rules & Regs make it clear that each Owner is allowed (and encouraged) to mount their own PV panels on the roof, provided the project is fully Permitted and Inspected by the San Diego Building Dept, and that a licensed Electrician does the hookup/commissioning. Also, when the Board installed a new flat roof, I had the roofers integrate new stanchions (posts) for future PV, so use of the roof directly above is AOK. As president of the HOA, I want to set an example for the many other owners that want PV, and/or want to charge an electric vehicle.
I am asking for input regarding what's possible for the physical layout and logistics, and also regarding what panel connections the 2019 California Building Code and SDG&E allow and disallow.
Thanks!

 

[Ampster]

I am asking for input regarding what's possible for the physical layout and logistics, and also regarding what panel connections the 2019 California Building Code and SDG&E allow and disallow.

Like you I was President of an HOA in California,
The issues are complex and the first issue to me when I wanted to put solar panels on my roof was to understand the legal context, This all took place before I was a member of the board. I lived in a townhome which was a horizontal subdivision in only two dimensions, What that means is I owned the parcel and everything vertically above the two horizontal dimensions defining my parcel. The HOA took responsibility for maintenance of the roof so that is where the complexity arose. We worked out an arrangement that I put solar panels on the roof above my unit and agreed to accomodate any future reroofing that would take place.

This is an entirely different situation if the structure is a high rise condominium which is a vertical subdivision and which the roof is owned and maintained by the HOA.
To answer your question any IOU like SDG&E only has jurisdiction over the connection of your meter and the export of electricity through the meter to the grid. In that context they will only care about the size of your system as it relates to their transformer capacity and some realistic relationship to the amount of your proposal to your consumption. This is the same whether it is a single family residence or a multi family building like a towhhome, apartment or condominium. The building department of your city or county will be responsible to make sure the plan has been engineered as far as how the panels are fastened to the roof and how the circuits comply with the NEC and local codes.

If you care to share some specifics about your project I can provide further insight that might be relevant

 

[SamIam]

If you care to share some specifics about your project I can provide further insight that might be relevant

Hi Ampster:
Thanks for your prompt and thoughtful reply. As requested, here are some more particulars:

1. Our condo building is about 330' long, with open parking at the ground level (where I'ld install an EV charger), one condo stacked under ours, and a flat roof immediately above our ceiling. Above the one level of parking, the building is two stories (two condos) tall.
2. The common electrical/meter closet is about 100' away horizontally, and is extremely crowded, so there is physically no room for anyone to add any equipment of any kind at a code-compliant level.
3. We have a balcony with an exterior closet that could easily accommodate the battery bank, inverter/controller, etc.
   1. Alternatively, we also have a closet well inside the condo that has the 100amp panel, and plenty of room for the battery bank, inverter/controller, etc, if that location makes more sense.
   2. If possible and code/utility-compliant, I want to tie into the existing electrical panel using an automatic transfer switch without tying into the meter/grid.
4. The roof immediately above our condo is flat, is never shaded, and already has stanchions/posts installed, that are included in Firestone's 25-year roofing warranty.
5. As HOA president I would recuse myself, and the other Board members would vote on my Architectural Change Request, provided that I obtain a Building Permit from the City, that a licensed Electrician does the hookup/commissioning, and that it passes City Inspection.
   1. The other current Board members are enthusiastic about my idea, they have previously approved a major permitted/inspected kitchen renovation of mine that was very successful, and I honestly don't want to bring this thread down with any discussions of how frustrating HOA Boards can be.
6. Our PV project would be the first attempted in our 61-unit complex, and would enable many other Owners to repeat the example.

Many thanks to you, and everyone who responds!

 

[Ampster]

Your roof is a different legal issue than mine. In my case the boundary on the roof was the same as my property line. Also the installers could run the conduit directly through the roof to my unit.
In the case of a condo your board will probably have to allocate the roof square footage equitably among condo owners and develope easements for conduits unless there are already common area verticle shafts for other utilities.

 

[Ampster]

in addition, California is a state that requires Rapid Shut Down of systems. Also local jurisdictions have different regulations about where batteries can be located in a dwelling so you will have to gets some input from your local authority having jurisdiction.. Accommodating automatic transfer switch with the meter some distance from your electrical panel will present challenges.

 

[SamIam]

California is a state that requires Rapid Shut Down of systems

Thanks again Ampster!
Hi everyone, any input regarding the physical design, equipment, layout?

 

[svetz]

Technically anything can be done. To the right is a simplified example of how it might be done with a shared roof and multiple meters minimizing any changes (essentially you add one meter and the PV connection). Fill the roof with all the panels you need (or can). In this example, the Condo runs their own power co-op. The utility charges the co-op for all the meters and the co-op charges the owners. Let's also use microinverters (e.g., Enphase), so there's no single point of failure, 25 yr warranty, easy to diagnose problems, they're tucked in behind the panel so no additional space is required for the inverters, and no issues with string balancing with the eventual panel replacements.

​

A utility net-meter is placed on the inverter output, it's job is to get the net-meter credit from the utility and assumes a good net-metering agreement (locations with stinky net-metering need to have the distribution to the units from the panels, locations where the utility owns the meter they'd have to be replaced). A monthly rate is calculated by the cost of the power from the utility and divided out to the units based on their actual usage and factoring in TOU. All of the data can be picked up wirelessly these days (example) so easy for a PC to run the bills.

For example, say Unit 1 uses 500 kWh/m, Unit 2 600 kWh/m and the PV system generated 1100 kWh or a credit of 550 kWh/unit for that month. The utility energy costs to the co-op should be $0 since the PV generated the same amount as was used. Assume the utility rate is $0.14/kWh, so Unit 1 gets a credit of (500-550) kWh x 0.14 and Unit 2 gets a bill for (600-550) x 0.14. For CA you'd also want to factor in TOU rates.

For EV car chargers, you'd probably want a keypad so the power could charged against the unit number (e.g., the unit owner enters the unit number and a code).

You could also hook some energy storage into that sort of setup as well for both blackouts and TOU charges.

Getting past everyone telling you something new and different can't be done is always a battle. Frequently they must be taken to court, so not usually worth it. The other option is to have your legislators pass a law saying if the majority of the association votes they want it then it must be done.

...Possible To Off-Grid...​

The above bit is for grid-tied just because going off-grid is still expensive due to battery costs. But, if you wanted to, you could. Just remove the utility from the picture and add batteries. You can still even go Enphase, see the Ensemble solution.

 

[SamIam]

In this example, the Condo runs their own power co-op. The utility
charges the co-op for all the meters and the co-op charges the owners

Hi Svetz:
Thank you for your excellent response! Unfortunately, a complex-wide improvement of this scale would require a large loan of some sort, and I am having great difficulty finding any loan-type that allows a non-profit such as our HOA to sign using our significant common property/savings as collateral, rather than a Board Member signing his/her personal life away. Does anyone know of a loan for non-profit businesses to do capitol improvements?
I'm still hoping that folks can answer my original questions; that is an approach that I can pay for myself.
Thanks again.

 

[SamIam]

.... Grid-tied Solar/PV with Enphase Microinverter's covering 95% of the common-space electric meters' needs would only cost about $45k, without a battery bank, but I am not willing to jeopardize my personal credit or sign for a loan. What type of loans do places of worship get?

 

[svetz]

... a complex-wide improvement of this scale ...

That's one of the beauties of microinverters, you could start with as little as one unit and make it an option for units to buy into. You'd subdivide the roof space by unit count, then as units want to "opt in" they pay for the panels and to tie into the system. People can join or not as they please. Each unit gets the tax credits at the rate for that year when they join in. Once their hardware is activated they just call the power company and have their meter billing switched to the Co-op.

There is some "balance of system" costs (the stuff between the solar panels and the net-meter) the first unit pays for. But each time someone opts in, they "buy" their part of it and the prior units get a corresponding credit. It's not a large amount so hopefully not too onerous.

... I am having great difficulty finding any loan-type that allows a non-profit such as our HOA ...

Could you switch to personal loans? Many locations have sweet deals on solar loans (but beware, many more are scams so do your diligence).

Update: You know... seems like condo HOAs would be great business for Enphase with the above scenario... you might call them ... possibly you could become a pilot installation and they would cut you a deal to get the kinks worked out out of the business model.

I'm still hoping that folks can answer my original questions; that is an approach that I can pay for myself.

If you have TOU charges, you could minimize them with an ESS (e.g., powerwall). If it pays off or not depends on the TOU charges.

....would only cost about $45k...

See also What should you pay for a Solar Installation?

 

[Zil]

----, provided the project is fully Permitted and Inspected by the San Diego Building Dept, and that a licensed Electrician does the hookup/commissioning. ------
I am asking for input regarding what's possible for the physical layout and logistics, and also regarding what panel connections the 2019 California Building Code and SDG&E allow and disallow.

Best folk to ask is the Licensed Electrician you need to have on board. Try to find one that understands solar power. Also you can get a copy of the code referenced by the local rules and regulations. Read that before you talk to the electrician. Anyone on this forum that knows what is what will not advise you on these legal issues. What you plan has been done. It takes a large solar array and healthy battery bank. Along with a quality transfer switch designed for the load.

 

[SamIam]

That's one of the beauties of microinverters, you could start with as little as one unit and make it an option for units to buy into.

Agreed Svetz, and I also like that our unlicensed Maintenance Guy can replace inverters as they fail (no electrician).

Could you switch to personal loans?

Only for our individual condo unit - I refuse to go beyond that financially.

You know... seems like condo HOAs would be great business for Enphase with the above scenario... you might call them ... possibly you could become a pilot installation and they would cut you a deal

Brilliant! I have left a message, and will report what I learn. This model would be applicable to hundreds of thousands of US-based condo complexes. Thanks!

Best folk to ask is the Licensed Electrician you need to have on board

Thanks Zil! Yes, I am trying to find a financing model that can bring a Solar-Specialist Electrician onboard to dive in deep on this unusual project. Any financing ideas are much appreciated.

 

[svetz]

Only for our individual condo unit - I refuse to go beyond that financially.

That's all that would be needed on a per unit install. In fact, it's something you might talk to the loan officer about as a co-op feature. If there are a lot of units, the bank would have a vested interest to package the deal for the co-op (e.g., offer lower rates on what would otherwise amount to a small loan or line of credit) as they could provide all the loans for all the owners (e.g., everybody wins). That way the co-op could offer owners: do nothing (e.g., as they are now), install and pay upfront (monthly bill/credit on actual use charges), or install and pay-off as you go (e.g., a part of their monthly bill would be the loan payment).

Might be better to keep the loan directly to the owner and leave the co-op out of the payments...otherwise, you'd need to figure out how to handle the tax credit.

Might make buying/selling units easier too in the co-op only sets up the loan for the owner. Obviously, units with solar would be worth more, but if buying/selling one on the pay-off as you go would either require the new owner to assume the loan or for the system to be paid off at the closing (something for lawyers, would have to accommodate the current laws). Those issues become "normal" liens if the co-op isn't handling the loan.

 

[mopat]

condo building is about 330' long

how wide? how many square feet open? how many units share this roof square footage?

has stanchions/posts installed,

how many? just for you or all tenants of building sharing roof?

use AC extravagantly without guilt

OK, how much solar satisfies your "extravagantly" desire?