Progressive Dynamics Lithium battery Chargers.... or are they just Power Supplies?

[FilterGuy]

Do any of you have experience with Progressive Dynamics Lithium battery Chargers?? I was about to purchase a Progressive Dynamics Lithium Charger so I could charge from AC, but when I read the spec, I did not see anything about charge profile... All I could find was the output voltage. I contacted the company about it with this exchange:

Me:​

I am looking at your PD9100L line of lithium chargers and I do not see anything about multi-stage charge profiles.​

It appears from the spec to be a fixed voltage supply. Could you please let me know what the charge profile is with these units? ​

​

Andy Giesen from Progressive Dynamics:​

Our lithium chargers have a constant voltage output….these are not multi-stage.​

​

Me:​

Is that OK for the lithium batteries? Shouldn't the voltage be turned off or at least dropped when the charge is complete? ​

​

Andy Giesen from Progressive Dynamics:​

We worked with battle born batteries while designing this unit.​

​

They told us that the charger should not be left on for more than 2-3 weeks once the battery is charged.​

​

If you are a dry camper and use a generator to charge, then the unit will only be on for a few hours at a time.​

​

If you are constantly plugged in, then you may need to periodically shut the converter off for a while ​

Beware of that last line..... You can't leave those 'chargers' plugged in permanently. They are just fixed voltage power supplies!

I have decided to look elsewhere for a lithium charger. I am curious what others think?

 

[tictag]

Seems like misrepresentation to me. A 'charger' is designed to optimally charge a battery, which means it must be configurable. A 'power supply' is just that, a steady supply of power. It seems like they have a 'power supply' product they are trying to sell into 'charger' market.

 

[MrNatural22]

Thanks for that very important discovery! I was thinking about ordering one for my cargo trailer conversion. As @tictag mentioned very deceptive to call it a charger when it actually only an expensive power supply. $$$$??
I now have changed my mind on progressive dynamics.

 

[ghostwriter66]

Do any of you have experience with Progressive Dynamics Lithium battery Chargers?? I was about to purchase a Progressive Dynamics Lithium Charger so I could charge from AC, but when I read the spec, I did not see anything about charge profile... All I could find was the output voltage. I contacted the company about it with this exchange:

Me:​

I am looking at your PD9100L line of lithium chargers and I do not see anything about multi-stage charge profiles.​

It appears from the spec to be a fixed voltage supply. Could you please let me know what the charge profile is with these units? ​

​

Andy Giesen from Progressive Dynamics:​

Our lithium chargers have a constant voltage output….these are not multi-stage.​

​

Me:​

Is that OK for the lithium batteries? Shouldn't the voltage be turned off or at least dropped when the charge is complete? ​

​

Andy Giesen from Progressive Dynamics:​

We worked with battle born batteries while designing this unit.​

​

They told us that the charger should not be left on for more than 2-3 weeks once the battery is charged.​

​

If you are a dry camper and use a generator to charge, then the unit will only be on for a few hours at a time.​

​

If you are constantly plugged in, then you may need to periodically shut the converter off for a while ​

Beware of that last line..... You can't leave those 'chargers' plugged in permanently. They are just fixed voltage power supplies!

I have decided to look elsewhere for a lithium charger. I am curious what others think?

@MrNatural22 @tictag FilterGuy -- constant voltage is NOT bad -- constant current is ... Andy is right -- you are misunderstanding what he is saying .. ... The progressive LiFePO4 device is a Converter/Charger which provides a Constant Current/Constant Voltage (CC/CV) charge profile. That means that as the battery gets full it backs down current while maintaining voltage ... once the proper 14.6 voltage is hit current stops ... so you literally have 14.6 and 0.0 Amps being pushed .. which is fine

SO NO -- its not a straight power supply ...

 

[Steve_S]

This would be why many of the pre-assembled packs one buys from China that provide a power supply / charger usually include only a Knock Off Meanwell type supply. And you have to furtle around with a DVOM & adjust the potentiometers on the meanwell type PS to adjust the right voltage being put out. The Meanwell Knock Offs are cheap like borscht but would I want to rely on one ? HECK NO.

A proper dedicated AC -> LFP Pack charger is NOT CHEAP ! especially when you go looking at High Amp output units. 20/30 Amp units are not much but imagine how long it would take to charge 200AH or 400AH pack with 20A charger... wanna watch your hair turn grey while you wait ? When you cross into 50-75-100 Amp land your getting dear for a good quality charger unit.

I ordered THIS charger below (grey, 3-15V-50A) for charging individual cells (The xuba's I just got will each be tested independently,) which this unit handles BUT they have others, in this listing they have 12V / 75A for $79 USD. NOTE: I have not yet received it so I am NOT qualified to say Yay/Nay BUT as they show a LiteOn PS as the main component, I know hat LiteOn makes good electronics.

76.36US $ 17% OFF|Voltage Current Adjustable Lifepo4 Lipo Li-ion Lithium Battery Charger 3.65v 4.2v 8.4v 12v 12.6v 14.6v 75a 50a Display 2s 3s 4s - Chargers - AliExpress

Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com

www.aliexpress.com

They offer other charger units as well with various options. Now if you look at the "proper dedicated" LFP chargers the prices "can be" Jaw Dropping IMO... See the Big Listing below:

Group - Shop Cheap Group from China Group Suppliers at IC GOGOGO Store on Aliexpress.com

Shopping for Cheap Group at IC GOGOGO Store and more from on Aliexpress.com ,the Leading Trading Marketplace from China

www.aliexpress.com

 

[Rbertalotto]

Doesn't the BMS in the Battleborn batteries control what voltage and current is being applied to the battery?

 

[Steve_S]

Doesn't the BMS in the Battleborn batteries control what voltage and current is being applied to the battery?

Yes & No. The BMS' job is to be a Fail Safe to prevent over / under charge and disconnect when the programmed threshold is reached. An external Charger, SCC, Inverter/Charger should be managing the voltage & amperage going to the pack(s) and acting on the voltage readings to determine the SOC and when to cut off.

 

[Rbertalotto]

thank you...still have lots to learn about LiPo

 

[John Frum]

In order to be called a charger I think the product should have charge termination logic.
And if it handles charge termination then it should also resume charging as well.

 

[ghostwriter66]

In order to be called a charger I think the product should have charge termination logic.
And if it handles charge termination then it should also resume charging as well.

So not sure if you are agreeing that the Progressive is a Charger or not ...

From where I sit - before we bash progressive Chargers -- it DOES meet the requirement for a termination logic device because it provides a Constant Current/Constant Voltage (CC/CV) charge profile.

 

[ghostwriter66]

This would be why many of the pre-assembled packs one buys from China that provide a power supply / charger usually include only a Knock Off Meanwell type supply. And you have to furtle around with a DVOM & adjust the potentiometers on the meanwell type PS to adjust the right voltage being put out. The Meanwell Knock Offs are cheap like borscht but would I want to rely on one ? HECK NO.

A proper dedicated AC -> LFP Pack charger is NOT CHEAP ! especially when you go looking at High Amp output units. 20/30 Amp units are not much but imagine how long it would take to charge 200AH or 400AH pack with 20A charger... wanna watch your hair turn grey while you wait ? When you cross into 50-75-100 Amp land your getting dear for a good quality charger unit.

I ordered THIS charger below (grey, 3-15V-50A) for charging individual cells (The xuba's I just got will each be tested independently,) which this unit handles BUT they have others, in this listing they have 12V / 75A for $79 USD. NOTE: I have not yet received it so I am NOT qualified to say Yay/Nay BUT as they show a LiteOn PS as the main component, I know hat LiteOn makes good electronics.

76.36US $ 17% OFF|Voltage Current Adjustable Lifepo4 Lipo Li-ion Lithium Battery Charger 3.65v 4.2v 8.4v 12v 12.6v 14.6v 75a 50a Display 2s 3s 4s - Chargers - AliExpress

Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com

www.aliexpress.com

They offer other charger units as well with various options. Now if you look at the "proper dedicated" LFP chargers the prices "can be" Jaw Dropping IMO... See the Big Listing below:

Group - Shop Cheap Group from China Group Suppliers at IC GOGOGO Store on Aliexpress.com

Shopping for Cheap Group at IC GOGOGO Store and more from on Aliexpress.com ,the Leading Trading Marketplace from China

www.aliexpress.com

NOW with all of this said -- I also have ordered the same one the @Steve_S has ordered -- they Grey 3V -15V 50A -- and still waiting ... SO NO I am not a Progressive Cheerleader -- BUT i just don't want to see their product misunderstood ...

Hoping to get my https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33019693095.html soonest ...

of course whoever their marketing guys are should be shot .. who the hell puts this as a marketing picture -- looks like pictures after a bombing ..

 

[FilterGuy]

@MrNatural22 @tictag FilterGuy -- constant voltage is NOT bad -- constant current is ... Andy is right -- you are misunderstanding what he is saying .. ... The progressive LiFePO4 device is a Converter/Charger which provides a Constant Current/Constant Voltage (CC/CV) charge profile. That means that as the battery gets full it backs down current while maintaining voltage ... once the proper 14.6 voltage is hit current stops ... so you literally have 14.6 and 0.0 Amps being pushed .. which is fine

SO NO -- its not a straight power supply ...

Andy Giesen from Progressive Dynamics:​

Our lithium chargers have a constant voltage output….these are not multi-stage.​

@ghostwriter66 , what info do you have that says this isn't just a constant voltage power supply?
Also, are you saying it is fine to leave the charger at 14.6 volts constantly, even after the charge is complete?

 

[John Frum]

So not sure if you are agreeing that the Progressive is a Charger or not ...

From where I sit - before we bash progressive Chargers -- it DOES meet the requirement for a termination logic device because it provides a Constant Current/Constant Voltage (CC/CV) charge profile.

By charge termination logic I mean that it automatically/programmatically stops current flow when charge current approaches 0 not when it gets to 0.
Another feature of a charger is a diode to prevent back flow.

A cc/cv power source is not a "charger" in my estimation.
I use one as a charger but I have to manually terminate the charge.

Do lifepo4 batteries require/benefit from charge termination?
If not, I will be happy to leave a cc/cv power source with a diode connected to charge the battery and share the load.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

It's not a good idea to keep most lithium chemistry batteries at 100% all the time. Even your phone for example will charge to 100%, cut off, and charge again when the battery dropped to 95%.

 

[FilterGuy]

This would be why many of the pre-assembled packs one buys from China that provide a power supply / charger usually include only a Knock Off Meanwell type supply. And you have to furtle around with a DVOM & adjust the potentiometers on the meanwell type PS to adjust the right voltage being put out. The Meanwell Knock Offs are cheap like borscht but would I want to rely on one ? HECK NO.

A proper dedicated AC -> LFP Pack charger is NOT CHEAP ! especially when you go looking at High Amp output units. 20/30 Amp units are not much but imagine how long it would take to charge 200AH or 400AH pack with 20A charger... wanna watch your hair turn grey while you wait ? When you cross into 50-75-100 Amp land your getting dear for a good quality charger unit.

I ordered THIS charger below (grey, 3-15V-50A) for charging individual cells (The xuba's I just got will each be tested independently,) which this unit handles BUT they have others, in this listing they have 12V / 75A for $79 USD. NOTE: I have not yet received it so I am NOT qualified to say Yay/Nay BUT as they show a LiteOn PS as the main component, I know hat LiteOn makes good electronics.

76.36US $ 17% OFF|Voltage Current Adjustable Lifepo4 Lipo Li-ion Lithium Battery Charger 3.65v 4.2v 8.4v 12v 12.6v 14.6v 75a 50a Display 2s 3s 4s - Chargers - AliExpress

Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com

www.aliexpress.com

They offer other charger units as well with various options. Now if you look at the "proper dedicated" LFP chargers the prices "can be" Jaw Dropping IMO... See the Big Listing below:

Group - Shop Cheap Group from China Group Suppliers at IC GOGOGO Store on Aliexpress.com

Shopping for Cheap Group at IC GOGOGO Store and more from on Aliexpress.com ,the Leading Trading Marketplace from China

www.aliexpress.com

I just looked at the link for the greys and they are CC/CV supplies, but I don't see anything that says they will terminate the charge once the current reaches zero. I sent a note to the vendor asking about it.

 

[ghostwriter66]

By charge termination logic I mean that it automatically/programmatically stops current flow when charge current approaches 0 not when it gets to 0.
Another feature of a charger is a diode to prevent back flow.

A cc/cv power source is not a "charger" in my estimation.
I use one as a charger but I have to manually terminate the charge.

Do lifepo4 batteries require/benefit from charge termination?
If not, I will be happy to leave a cc/cv power source with a diode connected to charge the battery and share the load.

So technically a true cc/cv power source will TERMINATE the charge when it senses the voltage is where it is suppose to be at ... On yours - if you do not terminate the charge when it hits 14.3V and 0A then what is yours doing where you need to do it manually?? By the very nature of it hitting 0A that means the charge is terminated .. VOLTAGE does NOT charge anything -- its the amps ... Just curious ...

But as far as the Progressives go -- YES it does start to lower the Amps to give the Progressive AMPS a smooth landing when it hits the proper voltage ..

@FilterGuy - YES -- VOLTAGE does NOT charge anything -- its the current/amps ... so on some of my equipment I set the 50A charger for 14.0V and walk away .. for months ... to no ill effect ... if the voltage of the battery drops below 14.0 then the charger starts putting enough in to match the draw .. if it can't match the draw then it just kicks on full until it can .... but when it senses that its back up to 14.0V it stops sending any current which is literally like turning it off ...

THATS why the tale of putting new batteries together in parallel and letting it sit for 24 hours will balance it out -- it won't work -- it takes current to balance ... NO CURRENT - NO MOVEMENT ...

 

[FilterGuy]

The reason I got into this is that I want to put together an emergency backup system(a solar generator without the solar). I want to be able to leave it plugged in for extended periods without worrying about having to unplug it.

 

[John Frum]

So technically a true cc/cv power source will TERMINATE the charge when it senses the voltage is where it is suppose to be at<snip>

Actually current will stop flowing if/when the difference in potential is zero.

I can't respond to the rest right now because I can't see today.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

So, I should clarify my previous comment: let's assume a 4.2V lipo cell. Putting a CV source at 3.6V and leaving it there is fine. Putting a CV source at 4.2V and leaving it there is not. In both cases the CV source will terminate charging since no current flows once the battery reaches the same voltage as the source. However keeping the battery at 4.2V (100% state of charge) is not something recommended.

 

[tictag]

In order to be called a charger I think the product should have charge termination logic.
And if it handles charge termination then it should also resume charging as well.

Gotta agree with @smoothJoey, chargers have other smarts too like only enabling the output once connected and stable, timer-based protections, short and cross connection protection, they should also monitor voltage after the charge cycle is complete to enable it to automatically re-start. It should be configurable for different battery types (even their own literature says, "Factory set voltage"). And so on.

A 'charger' is not just a CV source with current regulation, therefore these units are not 'chargers'.

Other opinions are available!