Rant: EG4 48v 100ah battery has faulty BMS. Signature solar customer service is TERRIBLE

[Niel]

I have never posted here before - and this may be completely irrelevant - Vacuum cleaners can be very problematic for certain power protection circuits (in the inverter for example) and NOTHING to do with current limits. I ran into this issue when I changed all my circuit breaker to combined AFCI / GFCI breakers. It is specifically the AFCI (Arc fault interruption) that look at the noise on the line to interrupt the circuit. Our old Vacuum just would not work, bought a new Dyson .. did the same (my welders/ 3kW table saw were all happy.

I eventually got a replacement set from GE (which still was not good) and went and bought Siemens ones that work.

Moral of the story may be the inverter that has built in AFCI circuitry.

 

[robby]

I have never posted here before - and this may be completely irrelevant - Vacuum cleaners can be very problematic for certain power protection circuits (in the inverter for example) and NOTHING to do with current limits. I ran into this issue when I changed all my circuit breaker to combined AFCI / GFCI breakers. It is specifically the AFCI (Arc fault interruption) that look at the noise on the line to interrupt the circuit. Our old Vacuum just would not work, bought a new Dyson .. did the same (my welders/ 3kW table saw were all happy.

I eventually got a replacement set from GE (which still was not good) and went and bought Siemens ones that work.

Moral of the story may be the inverter that has built in AFCI circuitry.

Yes and this is why we expected if there was a vacuum issue the Inverter would throw an error just like you experienced. Instead the BMS on the battery is overloading! This is just one of several cases of the EG4 BMS giving problems with loads. A group of guys have a thread on how to replace the BMS with one that does not have issues.

 

[shot428]

Yes and this is why we expected if there was a vacuum issue the Inverter would throw an error just like you experienced. Instead the BMS on the battery is overloading! This is just one of several cases of the EG4 BMS giving problems with loads. A group of guys have a thread on how to replace the BMS with one that does not have issues.

Could you link that thread please and thankyou

 

[robby]

I rarely agree with Signature Solar, but I 100% agree with Richard on this line right here.

Yes, the documentation is partially incorrect, they need to fix it - but look at every other brand. Jakiper, trophy, etc. We could sit here and find inconsistencies for months.

Even SOK battery which we all know and love couldn't figure out the difference between the > and the < sign in their spec sheet for BMS cut off voltage - I corrected it on my site, but it's been wrong on SOK's site since the beginning but we don't go 10 pages down the forum freaking out about it.

I think the whole argument that the customer bought the battery based on this spec is a load of crap and being exploited now. The inverter does NOT SPEC that running this particular vacuum mentioned in this thread would require a 250a 1s surge from the battery. It's not a real spec from the inverter! The real specs the inverter DOES have have been ignored...

Anyone familiar with NEC knows this line:
View attachment 96270

Well Dexter I rarely disagree with you but in this case I have no idea what you are talking about.
The OP mentions in his first post that the he is puzzled because the specification for the Battery says 250 Amp for 1 second and that would be over 12,000 Watts to start his 822 Watt vacuum cleaner, So your statement that the OP bought the Vacuum based on that specification as being "Crap" is very disturbing to me since it seems he did.

I spent hours and days looking at the Specs of every piece of equipment I bought for my system. In fact I found a conflicting statement in Fortress Powers Manual for the eFlex battery and the Sales Person Alex told me which statement was correct and which was wrong, but I was still not satisfied so I said to him I needed it in writing, which he sent to me that same day in an email.

I have gotten screwed on almost every occasion when I bought something on a Whim without thoroughly researching it. So yeah I find it odd to me that you think this guy did not do the same thing, even odder since most guys on this forum seem to spend months researching everything they buy.

As the USA representative for these SOK server rack batteries you know your never going to legally get a win in court by saying the Manual had an error. I really hope you understand that the Onus is on you to get the manual correct, not the customer to find out there is an error and then get screwed out of $749 for finding it.

 

[Hedges]

Household vacuum



60 Hz AC voltage, fundamental 60 Hz, 3rd harmonics 180 Hz is down 50 dB
20 x log10(voltage) = dB, 10^ (-50 dB / 20) = 0.003; the harmonic is 0.3% of the 123Vrms supply, just 0.4Vrms for the harmonic



Surge current to start vacuum peaks at 33.6A (shown as volts from sensor)
That's about 24Arms surge, declining over several cycles



Operating current 5.45Arms
Some interesting harmonics here, not just 0.4% like the grid voltage. Motor draws a distorted waveform.
This graph is 125 Hz/division, only shows up to 1 kHz or so (down by -60 dB, 0.1% of fundamental). There may be higher frequencies, RF from the brush arcs.




This only hit 4kW instantaneous peak, nothing that should shut down a 100A 48V battery.
What I don't get to see here is switch-mode spikes of OP's inverter.
And there is still the possibility noise confuses BMS measurement.

 

[robby]

Could you link that thread please and thank you

Here is one of them. Does this all sound familiar to what is in this thread or is it just me?
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/ss-eg4-12v-400ah-disappointing-bms.38706/

 

[Bob B]

Someone misplaced a period when they copied the stats and although I doubt it had any factor to this situation,

I continue to be amazed how blinded you are to this issue ..... 1st, it is a DIRECT factor in this situation .... 2nd, it was much more than dropping a decimal place.
If the spec said 1ms instead of .1ms, the error wouldn't be nearly as egregious. The OP clearly states that the battery shuts down with the short circuit error in FAR less than 1 second .... indicating the battery was defective ...... The battery CLEARLY did not and cannot meet that 1 second spec .... The customer is right.

The timing issue is the ONLY thing that is relevant to the customers problem .... The battery CLEARLY didn't meet the spec in the documentation for the error that was being experienced.

I don't know what your final decision will be, but it seems clear to me that you are simply having a difficult time admitting that you were wrong in your previous posts that effectively dismiss the only thing that really matters.

 

[Bluedog225]

What a great time for everyone to step away from the computer. ?

 

[AntronX]

Surge current to start vacuum peaks at 33.6A

At what voltage? You may have significant voltage drop at the vacuum cleaner plug during that peak which would result in lower peak current reading. Your vacuum may have inrush current limiter as well or smaller motor or with more leakage inductance or with longer and thinner conductor power cord that would act as resistor to bring down inrush current. OP needs to do this test on the DC side of his inverter to be fully sure because there are two sources of uncertainty here, the inverter and that specific vacuum cleaner.

 

[rhino]

Would probably be cheaper and less headache at this point if SS got the original vacuum sent to them and if that alone doesn't reproduce it whatever other equipment OP has to reproduce it. Since there is more than just this person having issues with tripping the BMS seemingly before it should it seems like that would save a lot of future trouble with other customers to get ahold of the actual equipment causing the issue and rectify it now. That isn't that uncommon in lots of industries for companies to go out of their way to get ahold of whatever is causing an issue with their product especially a fairly new product.

 

[AKvalleyguy]

What I don't get to see here is switch-mode spikes of OP's inverter.
And there is still the possibility noise confuses BMS measurement.

Your testing is pretty cool. Appreciate it.

I would have done something ridiculous like grab a neighbors vac to see if it did the same thing before shipping the thing back.

As for unusual occurrences with motors and such. I can turn on any vac, miter saw, air compressor and get no indication I just started a heavy load. When the propane fired dryer starts, the drum motor causes a huge surge. For just a little dryer motor everything feels the pain of the dryer starting for a brief second. I have 2 Outback VFX3648's for reference, not a toy inverter. Interesting

What a great time for everyone to step away from the computer. ?

HAHA 100% man. People are pulling out pitchforks and torches and I'm on the minority side.

 

[robby]

At what voltage? You may have significant voltage drop at the vacuum cleaner plug during that peak which would result in lower peak current reading. Your vacuum may have inrush current limiter as well or smaller motor or with more leakage inductance or with longer and thinner conductor power cord that would act as resistor to bring down inrush current. OP needs to do this test on the DC side of his inverter to be fully sure because there are two sources of uncertainty here, the inverter and that specific vacuum cleaner.

What does it matter? at 33.6A the battery is seeing about 4500W of power give or take and this is only lasting about 200ms. So even if we start to factor in some other remote possible you mentioned and add on 50% more in current and 10 times longer for the surge to stop. It's still way way below the 150A or 7200W the EG4 says it can handle for THREE Seconds. Dunno if we are going to hear that this is actually a misprint and it's .3 Seconds ?

Anyway I don't even care about this stuff. If the BMS is as bad as I think it is, then the posts that will come out in the coming months will reveal it.
My main issue right now is that the OP buys a battery for $1500 and ends up losing $750 and has no battery to show for it. It seems like a rotten deal to me.

 

[Hedges]

At what voltage? You may have significant voltage drop at the vacuum cleaner plug during that peak which would result in lower peak current reading. Your vacuum may have inrush current limiter as well or smaller motor or with more leakage inductance or with longer and thinner conductor power cord that would act as resistor to bring down inrush current. OP needs to do this test on the DC side of his inverter to be fully sure because there are two sources of uncertainty hindiere, the inverter and that specific vacuum cleaner.

24Arms from a 20A breaker, it wouldn't even blink.
I didn't capture voltage when I captured starting surge, but peak current first cycle appears about 2.5x peak when running.
"24Arms" is a rough estimate for first cycle, assuming sine wave which it is not. Actually lower, I think.

True, cord resistance adds to winding resistance to reduce peak current.
The interesting factor is inductance. Does winding on core form enough inductance to hold off current, or does inductor saturate and winding resistance is only limiting factor?

Something else must be going on with OP's system, I can't believe it is the AC current/wattage load of vacuum.

I'm playing now with a 25 year old StatPower Modified Square Wave inverter.
Interesting waveforms.
I could imagine if a badly designed HF inverter saturated an inductor in its boost converter, all H*ll would break loose. But would expect it's MOSFETs to be the first thing to go, if battery/BMS didn't interrupt current.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

I

In response to your entire post: Like I said, I'm going to go back and re-read all the tickets, emails, notes, and everything. I'm basing my discussion off of the original email that OP submitted, which to my knowledge didn't discuss timing at all. Again - maybe I missed it, maybe there is something else there. The point of the post you quoted was that we have a guy who is (after the fact) coming to the forum posting about an issue and although he does reference short circuit timing, he also apparently completely ignored very crucial specs from his inverter that specifically say that it won't work with a single battery. It's boggling to me that someone would point to page 50 or whatever in the manual to a specific spec while ignoring the bold huge text specs on the first page (not literally, but said this way for emphasis). And then, after sitting with our team troubleshooting a completely different line of reasoning over the phone and through email for multiple days, he would insist that we bring the battery back, and .....THEN .... finally make a post with a completely different line of reasoning. Additionally, during testing (while he still had the battery on site) he chose not to point out this fact, or to even try using another vacuum. I'd like to stress again that I will be reviewing all contact, and pretty much everyone here knows that I am very customer oriented - probably to a fault. I'm just saying all this because I have read all the emails (and will reread and research) and no one else here has. Everyone is getting up in arms about a typo (AND JUST TO STOP THE ANGRY REPLIES, I GET HOW IMPORTANT SPECS ARE AND THAT TYPOS MATTER) and yet completely ignore the glaringly obvious stuff that OP disregarded, blatantly ignored, and decided that it was 100% SS's fault and that they should be the ones taking the public beating and then still refund 100% of the purchase, plus shipping, and also eat the loss on the unit by reselling it at a significant discount, and also the costs in packaging (which are not part of the shipping charge assessed when checking out).

Dunno if we are going to hear that this is actually a misprint and it's .3 Seconds

Lol You always make me laugh. This is not facetious, I genuinely love interacting with you.

ridiculous like grab a neighbors vac

We asked him to do this....so I don't know how ridiculous it is...

What a great time for everyone to step away from the computer

Man, I'm about to turn my phone off from all the notification I am getting this weekend. I'm a veteran (please don't thank me on memorial day) but this weekend has been one of the busiest I've had in my personal life (new kiddo a few months back and fully remodeling my house - ask me for pictures of either I'll gladly oblige!). Anyways, even though I say that, I'll be around. Ya'll are great and have a great long weekend don't party too hard and if you do make sure to invite me!

 

[robby]

It's boggling to me that someone would point to page 50 or whatever in the manual to a specific spec while ignoring the bold huge text specs on the first page (not literally, but said this way for emphasis). And then, after sitting with our team troubleshooting a completely different line of reasoning over the phone and through email for multiple days, he would insist that we bring the battery back, and .....THEN .... finally make a post with a completely different line of reasoning. Additionally, during testing (while he still had the battery on site) he chose not to point out this fact, or to even try using another vacuum. I'd like to stress again that I will be reviewing all contact, and pretty much everyone here knows that I am very customer oriented - probably to a fault. I'm just saying all this because I have read all the emails (and will reread and research) and no one else here has. Everyone is getting up in arms about a typo (AND JUST TO STOP THE ANGRY REPLIES, I GET HOW IMPORTANT SPECS ARE AND THAT TYPOS MATTER) and yet completely ignore the glaringly obvious stuff that OP disregarded, blatantly ignored, and decided that it was 100% SS's fault and that they should be the ones taking the public beating and then still refund 100% of the purchase, plus shipping, and also eat the loss on the unit by reselling it at a significant discount, and also the costs in packaging (which are not part of the shipping charge assessed when checking out).

Lol You always make me laugh. This is not facetious, I genuinely love interacting with you.

Let me go on record even though I said it in my very first post. I DO NOT THINK SS SHOULD GIVE A 100% REFUND.
As I stated before I just think that the OP being out $749 and not even having a battery to show for it is unfair. I think this should have been handled in a more customer friendly way.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

Let me go on record even though I said it in my very first post. I DO NOT THINK SS SHOULD GIVE A 100% REFUND.
As I stated before I just think that the OP being out $749 and not even having a battery to show for it is unfair. I think this should have been handled in a more customer friendly way.

Ya, I'm going to review it some more. Maybe refund another 10% of the restocking fee or something. Shipping - well, Signature Solar literally has NO markup on it (James hates that he has to charge for shipping at all) and honestly, because it takes a day or so most of the time to ship out, we normally lose 20-30 or more per shipment because prices just keep going up. Of the 749, that's like half the charges total. Not to mention the pallet and other shipping materials that SS pays out of pocket for each time. I don't know, I'm definitely doing some research on Tuesday to make sure we do the right thing for the customer and for us and the solar industry as a whole. This is a DIY community and sometimes on posts like this people seem to forget that and expect a supplier to 'do it for me' to a degree. They want us to do the research, design the system how they want, support the product, and give 100% refunds if something isn't compatible. The thing is, there ARE companies out there that do this - they just charge 80k for a 15kw system.

 

[Bob B]

It's boggling to me that someone would point to page 50 or whatever in the manual to a specific spec while ignoring the bold huge text specs on the first page (not literally, but said this way for emphasis).

I you would stop downplaying the importance of the spec that is associated with the error the customer was getting .... I will stop posting.
It doesn't matter what page the spec was on .... IT WAS THE SPEC THAT DEFINED THE ERROR HE WAS GETTING.

If he had been having trouble with the inverter not running at all .... the spec on page 1 would have more bearing .... but, he wasn't having that problem ... he was able to run a LOT of devices with no problem, and he was able to run the vacuum on a much smaller system.

He was having a problem with a short circuit error on the battery and the spec in 2 different documents indicated he shouldn't have been getting that error.
Should you only be selling to engineers who know that spec couldn't possibly be correct and therefor have no need to read any of the specs?
Are the previous conversations with the customer more relevant than the obvious fact that 99% of people would have assumed the battery had to be faulty based on reading that spec?

 

[chriscappuccio]

The money isn't 'lost'. It was SPENT. Most of it was spent with the shipping companies who 100% did ship the battery to him, and shipped it back. It was also spent on an entire team to ensure the battery was tested, and restocked into inventory where SS now has to sell it at a discounted price.

I'd also like to quickly point out that Signature Solar, due to backorders etc being quoted shipping during the original order, frequently pays more for shipping that what the customer is charged. When this happens, they don't reach out saying "hey you owe us another $40 for shipping because it changed." They just take care of it to take care of our customers.

does anyone with half a brain need all this constant explanation? just tell us where we can buy this battery so we get it at a discount...

 

[shot428]

does anyone with half a brain need all this constant explanation? just tell us where we can buy this battery so we get it at a discount...

It's already gone, I tried to buy it Friday

 

[mberding]

didn't discuss timing at all

Sorry, no, that wasn't mentioned in the original post. The timing was instantaneous, at least as far as I could tell. Far shorter than 1 second. As soon as we hit the vacuum switch, the battery instantly cut out, throwing the Short Circuit fault code.

Richard, I hope you have your notifications turned off, go enjoy Memorial Day!