Schneider xw pro 6848 not powering up with eg4 lithium battery

[Koldsimer]

OK, so they are isolated from battery during power up. There goes that theory.

LOL yeah, im running out of theories but i appreciate the ideas.

 

[GVSolar]

I don't know what to do. I asked last thursday for an update and I offered a resolution. Was told they would get back to me monday. Heard nothing all day monday. Sent a dm to Richard today and he said he would forward my issue to the tech dept.


@GVSolar how did that work out for you?

@robby we are literally no closer to resolving this issue as far as i can tell. They don't offer me pro-active updates at all. I have to dm them or email them and I have heard everything from the weather is bad, people are sick, it was over the head of the tech guy you talked to, we are growing fast, we sell thousands of batteries with no problems, we are waiting on the inverter, the inverter is here but we have other priorities (es5000, 48v charger)

Sorry for the late reply, but Life gets Lifey from time to time.

SS did respond to me - both from @signaturesolarrichard and james showalter.

"On Jan 24, 2022, at 5:30 AM, James Showalter <james@signaturesolar.us> wrote:
Bill, I see where we made a mistake here, this is on us for sure.
We need to do a better job of product documentation and marketing the difference between the GYLL, EGyll and LIFEPOWER4 models. As far as I am concerned we are on the hook for return and re-shipment of a new version or a $300 refund, whichever you prefer."

I took the $300 refund, as I had already installed the Lifepower4 unit in my basement crawl space. Schlepping those batteries required some mechanical patience - I am 68 years old.

As to the monitoring situation - I built a workaround - a usb/serial hub adapter and some careful positioning of the different software versions on screen allows me to monitor all the batteries simultaneously. (A bluetooth Thornwave DCPM and a Schneider Combox keeps me informed upstairs - without being bent over.)

Another note: I've worked with a number of solar vendors in my 30+ years off-grid. Signature Solar, although having made mistakes from time to time, has always been willing to work through any technical or performance difficulties with me. Compare them to other independents (eg. Big Battery) and I think you'll see the difference. BTW, I don't have any personal or business relationship with either. Just a regular guy keeping the lights on.

Best to all.

 

[Koldsimer]

Glad you got it fixed gvsolar. Seems like a fair resolution for your issue.

 

[GVSolar]

I hope they get yours worked out soon. Best.

Glad you got it fixed gvsolar. Seems like a fair resolution for your issue.

 

[Koldsimer]

I grabbed a single discover lithium 130ah battery for testing purposes and found it started up the inverter without issue. So the crown cr430 and the discover lithium will power up the inverter but not the eg4 lifepower.

 

[Mr-Sandman]

There's something up with the EG4's in your setup for sure.

2 things,

1, Have you verified what this setting is set to in your LifePower4 batteries?: Setting is "CHG_UT_Delay" and by default is 4000ms.

Maybe yours is set different? I'd double check that.

2. Have you tried turning your midnight charge controller on FIRST "WITHOUT the solar hooked up, just the batteries breaker on". THEN power the XW? Maybe the midnights will trigger the initial pre-charge and not pull as much, then the XW can power? I don't fully understand what triggers the pre-charge timer or how it work, so I'm just guessing on things to try here.

 

[acdoctor]

Update: So I just personally went out to our back warehouse and did many tests with the EG4LL's and with the Lifepower4's. I'll post a few quick videos below and a text explanation.
For testing purposes, we used the Schneider straight out of the box with no changes to any of the settings. For the batteries, we also verified that they were using the default settings for the firmware as well as any modifiable settings such as timings and voltage or current. Essentially, these are the settings you would have for BOTH the inverter and batteries straight out of the box. For our tests, we used 1, 2, and 3 batteries in succession and had them set up using the cabinets we offer and the included busbar. Again - there have been no external modifications. In both tests, you will see that we have 6 batteries in the cabinets - however during testing we only had 1, 2, and 3 turned on at a time. The cabinets we have in our shop currently are modified 3 battery cabinets, and the bottom 3 batteries were not connected to the top 3 in any way.

Test Subject 1 - EG4LL batteries (these were already in place and ready to go, so I did them first)
Test Parameters - Using 1, 2, and 3 batteries, attempt to power on the inverter. Attempt to measure load of 1 single 1500w Space Heater. Attempt to operate electric dryer while space heater is on. Attempt to operate circular saw while space heater and dryer are operating. Measure peak DC current, and report.
Test Results - 1 battery: Upon starting 1 battery, the Schneider inverter began to power on normally. After several seconds a humming noise indicated it was fully operating and ready to invert. Turn on space heater. Successfully operated space heater. Turn on dryer. 1 battery failed to operate both battery and space heater.
2 batteries: Upon starting 2 batteries, the Schneider inverter began to power on normally. After several seconds a humming noise indicated it was fully operating and ready to invert. Turn on space heater. Successfully operated space heater. Turn on dryer. 2 batteries successfully allowed operation of space heater and dryer. Attempt to operate circular saw. Failed to operate circular saw, inverter tripped and full load was lost. After a few moments, the Schneider restarted and operated the space heater again and dryer was able to be started again.
3 batteries: Upon starting 3 batteries, the Schneider inverter began to power on normally. After several seconds, a humming noise indicated it was fully operating and ready to invert. Turn on space heater. Successfully operated space heater. Turn on dryer. 2 batteries successfully allowed operation of space heater and dryer. Attempt to operate circular saw. Successfully started and maintained circular saw operation for 10+seconds.

Test Subject 2 - LifePower4 batteries
Test Parameters - Using 1, 2, and 3 batteries, attempt to power on the inverter. Attempt to measure load of 1 single 1500w Space Heater. Attempt to operate electric dryer while space heater is on. Attempt to operate circular saw while space heater and dryer are operating. Measure peak DC current, and report.
Test Results - 1 battery: Upon starting 1 battery, the Schneider inverter began to power on normally. After several seconds a humming noise indicated it was fully operating and ready to invert. Turn on space heater. Successfully operated space heater. Turn on dryer. 1 battery failed to operate both battery and space heater.
2 batteries: Upon starting 2 batteries, the Schneider inverter began to power on normally. After several seconds a humming noise indicated it was fully operating and ready to invert. Turn on space heater. Successfully operated space heater. Turn on dryer. 2 batteries successfully allowed operation of space heater and dryer. Attempt to operate circular saw. Failed to operate circular saw, inverter tripped and full load was lost. After a few moments, the Schneider restarted and operated the space heater again and dryer was able to be started again.
3 batteries: Upon starting 3 batteries, the Schneider inverter began to power on normally. After several seconds, a humming noise indicated it was fully operating and ready to invert. Turn on space heater. Successfully operated space heater. Turn on dryer. 2 batteries successfully allowed operation of space heater and dryer. Attempt to operate circular saw. Successfully started and maintained circular saw operation for 10+seconds.

For your consideration, I have included video evidence showing our quick set up. Please excuse the background noise. Also, in the final video, during the video we attempted to turn on the circular saw before the 3rd battery was fully started. We were able to operate the saw using only 3 batteries. Linked to youtube because the files are too large to attach here.

At this point we are going to have an internal discussion to see what our next steps will be for testing and to fix these issues on an internal level. I invite anyone who hasn't already messaged me that is experiencing issues with this set up to please MESSAGE ME DIRECTLY with contact information so I can solve this issue for you in one way or another.

Youtube Links:
Lifepower4:

EG4LL:

AGAIN - IF YOU ARE EXPERIENCING THIS ISSUE, MESSAGE ME DIRECTLY SO I CAN TRY AND FIND OUT WHAT EXACTLY IS CAUSING THIS ISSUE!
EDIT: If there is something we are doing wrong to test this, please also let me know so I can FIX IT and retest.

It appears the wires are #2 awg about 10 feet each. The OP may be using wire with less resistance. I currently have FLA connected to my SW6848+ with 2 parallel sets of 2/0 awg. I haven’t calculated the resistance difference.

 

[Quattrohead]

That delay is way too much.
It will depend on the total capacitance of the inverter and the value of the resistor so we can only guess.
So I am going with 20,000uF of capacitance and a 50ohm resistor. This would need a charge time of 1000ms.
If the capacitors are 10,000uF and resistor is 10ohms then the delay needs to be 100ms.

 

[Mr-Sandman]

I agree 4000ms seems like a long time. @signaturesolarrichard I assume the Setting "CHG_UT_Delay" = 4000ms can be adjusted in the BMS. Can you provide the procedure to turn this to 3000ms or even 2000ms to see if this fixes the issue?

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

I agree 4000ms seems like a long time. @signaturesolarrichard I assume the Setting "CHG_UT_Delay" = 4000ms can be adjusted in the BMS. Can you provide the procedure to turn this to 3000ms or even 2000ms to see if this fixes the issue?

We can do this as well. I will note, however, that the units we successfully tested were using this setting.

 

[Mr-Sandman]

We can do this as well. I will note, however, that the units we successfully tested were using this setting.

I understand. But as you can see in @Koldsimer video his is not. Additional a Discover Lithium battery and his old Lead Acid batteries power it up just fine, so there is something in HIS system that the EG4's are not working with right.

 

[Koldsimer]

It appears the wires are #2 awg about 10 feet each. The OP may be using wire with less resistance. I currently have FLA connected to my SW6848+ with 2 parallel sets of 2/0 awg. I haven’t calculated the resistance difference.

Mine are 4/0 at 10'. I wonder if that matters?

 

[Mr-Sandman]

Mine are 4/0 at 10'. I wonder if that matters?

No, that's plenty. No issue with that. I don't think having less resistance would matter either.

 

[Koldsimer]

There's something up with the EG4's in your setup for sure.

2 things,

1, Have you verified what this setting is set to in your LifePower4 batteries?: Setting is "CHG_UT_Delay" and by default is 4000ms.

Maybe yours is set different? I'd double check that.

I have not verified this setting. Hopefully, i can get into the bms today and verify. Having tested all 4 batteries independently, all four would have to be set wrong but it's worth checking.

2. Have you tried turning your midnight charge controller on FIRST "WITHOUT the solar hooked up, just the batteries breaker on". THEN power the XW? Maybe the midnights will trigger the initial pre-charge and not pull as much, then the XW can power? I don't fully understand what triggers the pre-charge timer or how it work, so I'm just guessing on things to try here.

Have not tried that yet. Interesting idea. Will give it a shot this afternoon. Thanks

 

[Hedges]

That delay is way too much.
It will depend on the total capacitance of the inverter and the value of the resistor so we can only guess.
So I am going with 20,000uF of capacitance and a 50ohm resistor. This would need a charge time of 1000ms.
If the capacitors are 10,000uF and resistor is 10ohms then the delay needs to be 100ms.

0.020 uF x 50 ohm = 1 second time constant.
With that, voltage rises to within 1/e of final voltage, about 1/3 of the way left to go.

At 4 seconds, (1/3)^4 = 0.012 remaining, so 98.8% charged
I would call that "about right" rather than way too much. Assuming 50 ohms, and assuming relatively small 20,000 uF.
I think 100,000 uF is more likely in a large low-frequency inverter.
A fast digital meter, maybe one with a bar graph, could show the charging. Analog would be preferred.

"Too long" a delay is only if somebody gets impatient, like inverter automatically starts operating with loads connected.

 

[Mr-Sandman]

"Too long" a delay is only if somebody gets impatient, like inverter automatically starts operating with loads connected.

In the XW's case, there can be too long. It doesn't wait to power on and has some "bootup" current as it goes thru it's internal test, EVEN if loads aren't connected. Another words, as soon as it see's DC power, it's going to start pulling DC amperage to "boot up". This is in ADDITION to the in-rush for the capacitors all inverters have.

 

[Hedges]

Yep. tried it that way as well. Tried it with just one battery and every combination imaginable with same result every time.

Determine how fast inverter AC output comes up, after DC is provided by a battery that is able to start this inverter. Time from closing breaker to lightbulb illuminating, for instance.
Determine what DC voltage rises to in that amount of time, as inverter capacitors are precharged by the battery from SS.

It needs to have pretty much full voltage, then hard connected by BMS, prior to current being drawn.
If precharge isn't complete when BMS fully connects, there will still be a current surge instantaneously completing charge of caps.
If BMS isn't fully connected when inverter begins drawing higher current, voltage on capacitors will drop back down (linear ramp) then there will be a current surge when BMS connects.

 

[Mr-Sandman]

That's what it seems, that the pre-charge isn't finished when the inverters is trying to pull current to boot, has low voltage and doesn't finish "booting". Maybe needs less pre-charge timer OR more pre-charge current. Timer can be changed easily it seems, but that might not solve it, if it's not on long enough to charge the capacitors before locking.

 

[Mr-Sandman]

@Koldsimer one other thought that just popped in my head while explaining the "bootup" test it does to Hedges. What firmware are you running in your XW Pro? Maybe that's been covered, but I'm at the latest on mine. They certainly could change the bootup procedure in their firmware, so that it waits longer or draws less possibly. Latest is 1.11.01bn49

 

[Hedges]

In the XW's case, there can be too long. It doesn't wait to power on and has some "bootup" current as it goes thru it's internal test, EVEN if loads aren't connected. Another words, as soon as it see's DC power, it's going to start pulling DC amperage to "boot up". This is in ADDITION to the in-rush for the capacitors all inverters have.

Yes, that is why I suggested earlier timing within inverter firmware could be the problem. You want a longer delay, a programmable delay, or handshaking. Coordination of inrush limiting with downstream loads determining "power good" and turning on is a problem in product designs.

If "bootup" current can be determined, precharge resistor value (ohms) and wattage could be selected accordingly. I've suggested a coil of Romex for resistor of DIY precharge circuits, could even supply current for modest inverter output wattage.

For BMS built-in precharge, if inverter settings can't be changed it is a race. Careful adjustment might make it work.

 

[Koldsimer]

That's what it seems, that the pre-charge isn't finished when the inverters is trying to pull current to boot, has low voltage and doesn't finish "booting". Maybe needs less pre-charge timer OR more pre-charge current. Timer can be changed easily it seems, but that might not solve it, if it's not on long enough to charge the capacitors before locking.

One of the things i did in the past was to measure voltage at the terminals in my ebox when attempting to power up. As soon as I connected breaker, voltage immediately dropped from 52.8 to low 30's and just hovered there while the inverter clicked away and wouldn't start.

 

[Koldsimer]

@Koldsimer one other thought that just popped in my head while explaining the "bootup" test it does to Hedges. What firmware are you running in your XW Pro? Maybe that's been covered, but I'm at the latest on mine. They certainly could change the bootup procedure in their firmware, so that it waits longer or draws less possibly. Latest is 1.11.01bn49

That was one of the first things Schneider suggested. I'm running that exact version.

 

[Hedges]

If AC loads are disconnected, I think an external DIY precharge circuit (with optimal resistor value and size) enabled after the battery's BMS is done ought to work.
Of course, that's not what you're looking for in a ready-made battery.

One of the things i did in the past was to measure voltage at the terminals in my ebox when attempting to power up. As soon as I connected breaker, voltage immediately dropped from 52.8 to low 30's and just hovered there while the inverter clicked away and wouldn't start.

"ebox" being between the SS battery and Schneider inverter? Sounds like voltage drop through battery's precharge circuit due to current draw. Meaning current starts flowing before fully precharged and FETs on hard.

That was one of the first things Schneider suggested. I'm running that exact version.

Check time for inverter to turn on output (with other battery that works), as I suggested earlier.
Can you measure (i.e. clamp meter) current draw during boot-up? Detect time when this starts? If a moderate current draw begins instantly, any precharge circuit must supply that current while maintaining voltage.

Can you try my suggestion of putting a switch between battery and inverter. Switch open, turn on battery. Use a coil of romex as resistor to precharge, then close switch. (Wire nut joining white and black at one end of romex, use white and black at other end to precharge, so the coil doesn't act as an inductor.)

 

[Quattrohead]

Hedges you are over thinking this
The evidence 100% says the pre-charge delay is wayyyy too long for this particular inverter in this situation. I don't know why SS are getting a different result, no AC load perhaps ?
AFAIK the capacitors are right on the battery input on all inverters I have ever seen.
I bet you a 6 pack the delay needs to be 100-1000ms.
The battery and inverter are chasing each other around in a non booting loop.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

I understand. But as you can see in @Koldsimer video his is not. Additional a Discover Lithium battery and his old Lead Acid batteries power it up just fine, so there is something in HIS system that the EG4's are not working with right.

Totally agreed. I'm simply saying that if it was isolated to just this setting specifically, we could duplicate it.