Schneider xw pro 6848 not powering up with eg4 lithium battery

[robby]

I was very much wanting to see the system in person - but at the end of the day we are a supply company and for many liability reasons we can't go on site. A users system has many components that we can't recreate or verify are installed correctly etc.

I was going to say this a few times but bit my Lip because even the mention of Sol-Ark on this forum seems to create an opinion that one is an elitist.
I don't know where you got this Liability Info from but I can tell you that the Retailer who sold me my 12K Sol-Ark followed up on delivery and Installation and to my surprise when it was finished and I called them to let them know everything was working perfectly he said to me that I pass near your location from time to time and would love to see the Installation.
He showed up about a week later in the late afternoon and he not only looked at the Installation but he also went into the Menus and checked my settings. He suggested some changes and I said sure go ahead and he changed them.

 

[Mr-Sandman]

Let’s be clear there is an issue with the EG4 LifePower4 batteries powering up some inverters. It’s been proven. There is 3 other batteries that work perfect in @Koldsimer testing, including your own EG4 LL.

Not sure why you can’t reproduce it but we know from @Koldsimer testing and results something is not right with the EG4 LifePower4 batteries.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

I was going to say this a few times but bit my Lip because even the mention of Sol-Ark on this forum seems to create an opinion that one is an elitist.
I don't know where you got this Liability Info from but I can tell you that the Retailer who sold me my 12K Sol-Ark followed up on delivery and Installation and to my surprise when it was finished and I called them to let them know everything was working perfectly he said to me that I pass near your location from time to time and would love to see the Installation.
He showed up about a week later in the late afternoon and he not only looked at the Installation but he also went into the Menus and checked my settings. He suggested some changes and I said sure go ahead and he changed them.

I might try to make a visit after hours or on a weekend - I was promised a cup of caffeine by @Koldsimer. I don't know the legalities about everything and I won't pretend I do.

Let’s be clear there is an issue with the EG4 LifePower4 batteries powering up some inverters. It’s been proven. There is 3 other batteries that work perfect in @Koldsimer testing, including your own EG4 LL.

Not sure why you can’t reproduce it but we know from @Koldsimer testing and results something is not right with the EG4 LifePower4 batteries.

I agree - there is an issue here. The problem is it isn't a model wide issue - it's a case by case basis. We definitely know the other batteries worked or I'm sure he'd be back here for his refund - but the same batteries that failed at his location worked at ours. Maybe I'll have the "Lets buy this guys inverter from him" conversation again. I'm seriously super interested in figuring out what is going on here. I'm practically begging for ideas at this point. You should see the thread I have with our engineers in China - it's longer than this one (just kidding!).

 

[Bluedog225]

If I’d known there would be lattes……

 

[robby]

Well i said it before .
Saying it again.
Its really puzzling that Will did not even commented on this post as well but from my experience SS did not solve the issue.

I think that "Will" has done a lot more than comment. He has actually taken action as he is just tired of this stuff. Most of it was not a direct hit at SS but just an overall statement to everyone to stop selling stuff using his forum.

We know they are not suppliers.
But you cant blame the customer if you are selling broken items.
I will post the video with the battery going into protect mode but not in the interest of SS but for the forum.

I would like to see it.

I still feel SS not Richard is poor at customer service .To really make my point this is coming from a guy half way around the world from a third world country .

I agree that Richard has been outstanding and I suspect that he even got some flack for giving out four new batteries instead of Demo batteries that they could not sell for retail price.
This went on way to long and the problem is really not solved. Its going to be hell for the other guys. If the owner of SS was reluctant to work with a guy who is just down the road, imagine what is going to happen to people who have to ship back the battery.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

I think that "Will" has done a lot more than comment. He has actually taken action as he is just tired of this stuff. Most of it was not a direct hit at SS but just an overall statement to everyone to stop selling stuff using his forum.

I would like to see it.

I agree that Richard has been outstanding and I suspect that he even got some flack for giving out four new batteries instead of Demo batteries that they could not sell for retail price.
This went on way to long and the problem is really not solved. Its going to be hell for the other guys. If the owner of SS was reluctant to work with a guy who is just down the road, imagine what is going to happen to people who have to ship back the battery.

Will specifically mentioned that he didn’t ban me because I’m not here to shill our company - I’m here to help. I think my service will do far more to gain trust and rapport in this community than offering sales ever would.

Regarding the batteries - I didn’t even think it would be an issue - they were brand new, just opened (literally one I opened myself, shot a video, and put back in the box). When it was brought up, I could tell he was upset, so I made it right and I am always supported in my decisions. Our management team recognizes my decision making abilities and gives me more freedom than most to make these decisions.

This definitely has gone on longer than I would have liked, and we still don’t have the answer. And maybe the answer will be refunds or returns. We can’t duplicate the issue and unless a user wants to bring their inverter on site for testing (an offer we made), we have no way of knowing what is happening. I’m all ears about any suggestions I may have missed though!

 

[Purgatory]

That would be great, I can’t seem to get past the issue I am having with the 12V version. I can during the day get the system to start up with mppt Producing solar power, but if it’s not running the battery will kick into safe mode at any attempt to start up. The other issue I seem to have is if the system is under much load the safe mode kicks in and kills power to everything. I’m going to rerun all testing this weekend using an agm battery and see what results I have. If everything operates properly from the AGM then I am left with 1 conclusion. Hopefully it’s something I have missed but right now I don’t see it. Will post with updates.

Well I appreciate that Kolds issue has been somewhat resolved. I would however like to know about my issue. Did you test with the Victron Multiplus 2? As I stated I would, I connected my old AGM battery and my inverter fired right up. I also tried a buddies Battleborn who was in town it worked at the flip of a switch. I have now bought a couple of Weize 12v 100ah batteries off of Amazon and guess what? The cheap little batteries work just like they should. What can we do about this brick of a battery pack EG4 12v that wont start anything and protects itself every time you push any decent power? Would love to send it back to you, but don’t want to pay shipping and no longer have the box. What can Signature Solar do about this? Unsatisfied Customer.

 

[robby]

Will specifically mentioned that he didn’t ban me because I’m not here to shill our company - I’m here to help. I think my service will do far more to gain trust and rapport in this community than offering sales ever would.

I agree that it was not aimed at you or SS and I also agree that your CS role will be more of an asset than pushing sales. What worries me is the level of effort that you had to put out in order to get your boss to make right something that was so clearly wrong. Your warranty plus the fact that the guy uploaded a video showing that the product does not work should have triggered an immediate warranty return. Instead you were directed to find every other possible solution and it ended up with the customer juggling for a fix and painfully using a half functioning set of batteries.

Regarding the batteries - I didn’t even think it would be an issue - they were brand new, just opened (literally one I opened myself, shot a video, and put back in the box). When it was brought up, I could tell he was upset, so I made it right and I am always supported in my decisions. Our management team recognizes my decision making abilities and gives me more freedom than most to make these decisions.

I hope your right as your next test is the post preceding mine.

This definitely has gone on longer than I would have liked, and we still don’t have the answer. And maybe the answer will be refunds or returns. We can’t duplicate the issue and unless a user wants to bring their inverter on site for testing (an offer we made), we have no way of knowing what is happening. I’m all ears about any suggestions I may have missed though!

 

[Quattrohead]

The bottom line here is - Almost every single situation the batteries are fine, BUT when they are not sort it out sharpish before customer dis-satisfaction gets out of hand like it has here.
This thread is a classic example of stupid customer service....except you Richard who seems to have swam against the tide.

 

[MrM1]

I also think there needs to be a differentiation between warranty claims and products that arrive and do not work. I can see charging return shipping on a warranty claim within the time period, but an item that does not work out of the box is not a warranty claim, it's a defective item.

SS would have been better served (from an image POV) if they would have offered a return label / replacement from the start.

 

[Mr-Sandman]

If they plan on continuing to sell the batteries having issues, their issues will continue to multiple, along with more dissatisfied customers showing up. I would NOT recommend the EG4 LifePower4 to anyone that isn't running Growatt style inverters.

I’m all ears about any suggestions I may have missed though!

I think the issue is in the BMS programming for when and/or how long the pre-charge circuit is utilized. You failed to test changing that parameter with @Koldsimer, you mentioned it wouldn't take the setting or something. You failed to update the firmware supplied by the China man. It sounds to me like you have a serious BMS issues in these batteries, when you, the exclusive dealer for them, can't update firmware or make BMS parameter changes. Not being able to reproduce it yourself is certainly a huge issue. You should take any opportunity you have with customers to aggressively work the issue with setting changes, firmware, etc.

You now KNOW due to you swapping the EG4 LL batteries out with @Koldsimer "good move by the way", that the LL batteries solve the issue. WHAT IS DIFFERENT IN THEM? Look at the parameter difference on pre-charge timing and how they work. Pre-charge resisters the same? etc etc.... FIND THE DIFFERENCE!

Upper management has a very tough decision to make, since this isn't resolved and there is new people showing up every day stating they have the same issues with them. And more importantly the manufacture unable to supply you with a fix or even a working firmware upgrade or way to troubleshoot.

Signature Solar could:
1. Roll the dice, keep selling them. Risk ruining your reputation selling batteries with known issues "It will hurt more than your LifePower4 battery sales, people will be afraid of all of your batteries and products"... You and your support team will spend countless hours beating around the bush about an issue that you know about and can't fix. Eventually many will demand a refund and you SHOULD pay for return shipping in these cases, costing you thousands of $$$. You then will have a stack of used batteries to do something with.

2. Stop sale of them until resolved. Put pressure on the China Manufacture threatening to return them if they don't provide you with at least working firmware and a way to troubleshoot. You guys no doubt have spend hundreds of thousands $ with this company, sounds like they aren't providing the level of support your business relationship warrants.... It's a show of good faith by stopping sell until resolved or at a min put a disclaimer up that they may have issues starting non-growatt inverters. It will slow the support issues and returns down, giving you more $ and bandwidth to work on the issues.

Good luck and I do you hope you solve this. I've been here since the beginning of this thread. I was lucky enough to read @Koldsimer having issues with my exact inverter in time to get my order of EG4 LifePower4 switched to EG4 LL batteries. It cost me $750 to avoid this problem.... Not the solution I wanted, but I chose it over going thru the hell he did.

 

[Hedges]

Upper management has a very tough decision to make, since this isn't resolved and there is new people showing up every day stating they have the same issues with them.

Signature Solar could:
1. Roll the dice, keep selling them. ... Eventually many will demand a refund and you SHOULD pay for return shipping in these cases, costing you thousands of $$$. You then will have a stack of used batteries to do something with.

2. Stop sale of them until resolved.

Reportedly, only 0.05% of units sold were an issue for the customer:

EG4 Battery and Inverter Power Compatibility - Demo Videos

Richard, THANK you for the support, and I have had nothing but wonderful results from my EG4 48V battery installs. (4 different installs, various configurations) I have found using the voltage settings with Sol-Ark, Outback and Victron, the SOC is within 1 point once it gets dialed in (no direct...

diysolarforum.com

And maybe the answer will be refunds or returns. ... I’m all ears about any suggestions I may have missed though!

So keep selling them.
If one doesn't work for a customer, immediately offer full refund including shipping and provide a return label.
Offer to send a replacement, same return/refund policy if that doesn't work.

Have a pull-down list (including "other") for inverter make/model on your order form. Track success/issue statistics by model, so future approach (or recommendation for compatible inverters) can be adjusted.

 

[drh]

Let’s be clear there is an issue with the EG4 LifePower4 batteries powering up some inverters. It’s been proven. There is 3 other batteries that work perfect in @Koldsimer testing, including your own EG4 LL.

I'm not sure this is clear.
Koldismer's own LifePower4 batteries powered up the exact same brand and model inverter when tested back at SS and they went to great lengths to prove this with video documentation of serial numbers etc. when the units were returned.

What I think is a more accurate statement is Koldismer had a particular set-up that didn't play nicely with the LifePower4 batteries. Whether that was to do with other equipment in the loop or cabling etc (which was significantly discussed earlier in this thread), we will probably now never know!

 

[robby]

So keep selling them.
If one doesn't work for a customer, immediately offer full refund including shipping and provide a return label.
Offer to send a replacement, same return/refund policy if that doesn't work.

That is going to typically be about $400 expense for shipping both ways.
I suspect that at that point they have lost money on the deal and that's why they refuse to do it. As I said, I suspect that the warranty is useless.
Even if a battery does not power up i suspect they are going to make you jump through hoops trying everything in the book. As a last resort they may send out a replacement BMS. I am not sure how many people can replace a BMS and why would I want to do it with a brand new battery.

Have a pull-down list (including "other") for inverter make/model on your order form. Track success/issue statistics by model, so future approach (or recommendation for compatible inverters) can be adjusted.

I thought about that but I could see the possible issues from their perspective.
If I was in the market for a rack of batteries and given the many choices now available, I would probably skip the one that had a compatibility issue list.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

I agree that it was not aimed at you or SS and I also agree that your CS role will be more of an asset than pushing sales. What worries me is the level of effort that you had to put out in order to get your boss to make right something that was so clearly wrong. Your warranty plus the fact that the guy uploaded a video showing that the product does not work should have triggered an immediate warranty return. Instead you were directed to find every other possible solution and it ended up with the customer juggling for a fix and painfully using a half functioning set of batteries.


I hope your right as your next test is the post preceding mine.

I hear you - in hindsight we would have done things differently. We were really thinking we would be able to duplicate the issue at least one time with the 25+ inverters we have purchased (to no avail). After all this, we decided to make it right for the initial customer. We will likely have a conversation Monday regarding our position on this moving forward. I know our current return policy is a 'case by case' basis - but like we did with our chargers that had a manufacturing issue this is in a similar boat to me.

If they plan on continuing to sell the batteries having issues, their issues will continue to multiple, along with more dissatisfied customers showing up. I would NOT recommend the EG4 LifePower4 to anyone that isn't running Growatt style inverters.

I hear you loud and clear - both options you stated are possible moving forward. The issue STILL exists, but its obviously not a direct issue with the batteries working with XX model of inverter. There is some other factor in these systems that we can't determine, duplicate, or remotely troubleshoot. I really wish we could get one of these inverters in house - we have another pretty large order of inverters headed this way to test (about another 15-20). I'll keep posting updates.

The bottom line here is - Almost every single situation the batteries are fine, BUT when they are not sort it out sharpish before customer dis-satisfaction gets out of hand like it has here.
This thread is a classic example of stupid customer service....except you Richard who seems to have swam against the tide.

We are making changes to these processes -- for example the newest battery charger issue that I lead the ship on. As fast as we have grown, there were some issues falling by the wayside and I've picked a lot of them up and made them right. Trust me - it's only getting better from here.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

That is going to typically be about $400 expense for shipping both ways.
I suspect that at that point they have lost money on the deal and that's why they refuse to do it. As I said, I suspect that the warranty is useless.
Even if a battery does not power up i suspect they are going to make you jump through hoops trying everything in the book. As a last resort they may send out a replacement BMS. I am not sure how many people can replace a BMS and why would I want to do it with a brand new battery.

I thought about that but I could see the possible issues from their perspective.
If I was in the market for a rack of batteries and given the many choices now available, I would probably skip the one that had a compatibility issue list.

We 100% stand behind the battery warranty. The user returned working batteries - as shown in the video and through testing with multiple inverters in house. There is something else going on with this system that we cannot pinpoint. Still - we replaced with 4 new batteries for the user. I completely heard the frustration in his voice and took care of the issue - and in the end the user got a free $1000 battery upgrade, unopened brand new units, and returned 4 batteries that had been used for 2 months, have dozens of cycles, and for all intents and purposes are working. We have 20ish more inverters headed this way so I'll keep you posted if they ever duplicate the issue.

 

[Hedges]

That is going to typically be about $400 expense for shipping both ways.

For one sale out of 2000 ($0.20 per sale), that is totally a non-issue.

 

[robby]

For one sale out of 2000 ($0.20 per sale), that is totally a non-issue

You know I was talking on a per battery sale level. Losing $400 on a $1500 sale means money lost. I doubt they have a markup on each battery that can cover that.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

You know I was talking on a per battery sale level. Losing $400 on a $1500 sale means money lost. I doubt they have a markup on each battery that can cover that.

Ya, but you don't look at individual sales as a company - at least you shouldn't. You look at the spreadsheet at the end of the month. Hedges is right - once we determine the exact costs associated with this we will make a decision based on big picture numbers which in the end is better for everyone. There's definitely a conversation here to prevent fraud/malicious returns etc, but the conversation will happen.

 

[robby]

Ya, but you don't look at individual sales as a company - at least you shouldn't. You look at the spreadsheet at the end of the month. Hedges is right - once we determine the exact costs associated with this we will make a decision based on big picture numbers which in the end is better for everyone. There's definitely a conversation here to prevent fraud/malicious returns etc, but the conversation will happen.

I know at places I use to work at that we looked at it from both sides. It was the accounting dept and managements job to look at the big picture on returns or recalls but on the individual returns it was up to a supervisor to decide if we bring the whole unit back and send out a new one, or send out a replacement part or we send someone out to troubleshoot the problem and fix it on site. It was up to that dept head to make the call and it was based on many factors including if it would end up being a loss for the company and how best to avoid that. I hope Richard that they give you that kind of latitude in your decision making because the next one is not going to be a guy driving up to your offices.

 

[GVSolar]

I'm not sure this is clear.
Koldismer's own LifePower4 batteries powered up the exact same brand and model inverter when tested back at SS and they went to great lengths to prove this with video documentation of serial numbers etc. when the units were returned.

What I think is a more accurate statement is Koldismer had a particular set-up that didn't play nicely with the LifePower4 batteries. Whether that was to do with other equipment in the loop or cabling etc (which was significantly discussed earlier in this thread), we will probably now never know!

Absolutely. Good point.

I speak from personal experience - with both EG4 batteries and GYLL Batteries - and Schneider inverters, SCCs, and accessory equipment - and with Signature Solar.

1. Schneider equipment is very particular - with dozens of menus and sub-menus - all of which can affect performance with different battery chemistries, manufacturers, and cabling. Ask anyone who owns one - they will love the gear - and still express frustration with the sometimes byzantine software. (And there is always the possibility that @Koldsimer 's individual XW has a hardware anomaly with respect to capacitor function.)

2. Signature Solar did made some mistakes in their Lifepower4 product introduction - not pointing out the different BMS and software from the GYLL and LL series. I bought a Lifepower4 to add to my GYLLs and then had to make a workaround to monitor both models. Yet when informed of this problem, SigSolar offered to switch the unit with an LL or apply an appropriate credit. Both @RichardfromSignatureSolar and James Showalter were active in resolving that situation. As noted, they have done the same for @Koldsimer , albeit less quickly, but his was obviously a more complicated situation.

BTW, I've been off-grid for 30+ years and have dealt with any number of other outfits. I am not affiliated and have no personal relationships with any of them. But I do compare SS's willingness to listen and respond to customers with other distributors/companies. I think you'll find their track record is pretty good - I've yet to see them blow off issues as many others have.

Best to all.

 

[400bird]

Well I appreciate that Kolds issue has been somewhat resolved. I would however like to know about my issue. Did you test with the Victron Multiplus 2? As I stated I would, I connected my old AGM battery and my inverter fired right up. I also tried a buddies Battleborn who was in town it worked at the flip of a switch. I have now bought a couple of Weize 12v 100ah batteries off of Amazon and guess what? The cheap little batteries work just like they should. What can we do about this brick of a battery pack EG4 12v that wont start anything and protects itself every time you push any decent power? Would love to send it back to you, but don’t want to pay shipping and no longer have the box. What can Signature Solar do about this? Unsatisfied Customer.

It seems like no one noticed or commented on your issue? Does it feel like they're trying to ignore you?

What's "decent power"? How much wattage are you talking about?

The 12v version is pretty limited as far as current.
60a recommend and 200a "max continuous"?

 

[GXMnow]

I had one other thought about Koldsimer's original issue.

What else is on the battery bus? Charge controllers can also have some hefty capacitors across their output.
Is either side of the DC bus grounded? When I was looking at adding the Schneider MPPT 60-150 to my system, it grounds the negative through a fuse in the charge controller to make a ground fault detection system.

In the tests that Richard did back at Signature Solar, he just had a pair of DC cables from the battery to the inverter. Noting else at all, not even a load on the inverter output. It would be nice to see it loaded p to 3,000 watts and have a pair of charge controllers on the DC bus as well.

And this one is a question for Koldsimer.
When you had the original batteries wired into your system, what order did you turn everything on? Are there breakers or other disconnects to the charge controllers or the XW-Pro that were not on when the battery breaker was turned on? My battery bank does not have any pre charge circuit, so I need to manually connect a resistor to charge up the caps in the XW-Pro, then close my DC disconnect switch. If you have a DC disconnect between the EG4 battery and the XW-Pro inverter, that could completely defeat the pre charge system. Any means of disconnect between the XW-Pro and the battery should all be closed first, then when the breaker on the EG4 battery is turned on, it will use it's pre-charge circuit to bring up the caps in the XW-Pro inverter. Maybe the LL version BMS can take the surge a tiny bit longer and it "works" by pulling the caps up enough before the BMS can disconnect. Just a thought.

Richard, just for giggles.... What happens if you have one of the EG4 batteries already turned on, and then close a disconnect switch into an XW-Pro inverter? This will make a huge inrush current, no doubt. It has been the death of several BMS units as well as popped Class T fuses. The XW-Pro capacitor bank is a beast for sure. The manual has a lot of warnings about the extreme inrush current. Once the caps are charged up, the idle current is nothing. Mine will stay running in standby with my 8 ohm series resistor to the battery bank indefinitely until I close the DC disconnect switch. I have not measured the voltage drop, but it's not much. The inrush with 8 ohms is about 7 amps. And it takes about 1 to 2 seconds for the LED display to light up. The 8 ohm resistor I use is complete over kill. It is one of my audio amplifier dummy loads, rated at 500 watts continuous. That initial inrush only peaks at 380 watts. I don't even feel it get warm. A 100 watt incandescent light bulb also works pretty well. It charges it up a bit slower, at just about 0.4 amps of inrush current. The bulb lights up to a nice orange, and then fades out.

 

[Bluedog225]

maybe kold will upgrade to one of your test inverters and you can have his.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

Well I appreciate that Kolds issue has been somewhat resolved. I would however like to know about my issue. Did you test with the Victron Multiplus 2? As I stated I would, I connected my old AGM battery and my inverter fired right up. I also tried a buddies Battleborn who was in town it worked at the flip of a switch. I have now bought a couple of Weize 12v 100ah batteries off of Amazon and guess what? The cheap little batteries work just like they should. What can we do about this brick of a battery pack EG4 12v that wont start anything and protects itself every time you push any decent power? Would love to send it back to you, but don’t want to pay shipping and no longer have the box. What can Signature Solar do about this? Unsatisfied Customer.

We are getting about 20 more inverters, I'll check to see if that is one of them.