diy solar

diy solar

Solar/Battery/Grid system based on EG4 18KPV Powerpro

It is more "net metering doesn't do you any good if you are zero exporting."
The 18KPV is adaptable to both.

If you have 100% net metering rules, your economic best plan is keep the batteries fully charged for grid outages and push solar back into the grid as much as you can to offset your night time and peak usage.

If you have discount metering (not sure what you call it when you get less for export than import), then your best plan is to try and use as much of your energy locally because that is 100% offset of your utility bill. That is, zero export first. Use the energy to power local loads and charge the battery. When the battery is fully charged and local loads are low, then and only then pump solar out to the grid for whatever you can get for it. When the sun doesn't shine enough, use the battery to power local loads only. For outages, reserve some battery SOC for that, say 50%. If a hurricane is coming, change modes to keep the battery at 100% and have the most backup power available.

The 18KPV is configurable for both strategies. Presently the state has 100% net metering but that is under legislative threat. Having a system that can adapt to no net metering is good since the economics of the system aren't lost when a law changes.
 
The EG4 18K will absolutely do everything you need. The RSD system will shut everything off as you have found out as long as you have Tigo or some other shut off devices on your solar panels, the inverter sends a keep alive signal to those units until you hit the RSD. I have a fully permitted set of plans that I'm currently implementing here in Florida.
I am actually running my whole house off of a single 18K at the moment and it has only switched to grid bypass a couple of times when the load has been beyond its capabilities, still also charging the batteries from PV. It is the most flexible and sturdy set up when configured correctly.
 
Looks like you have done your research. I'll throw out a simpler and less costly option but it requires human intervention occasionally. Forget about all the critical loads panels and everything else and get one Sol-Ark 15 Inverter and set it up to power the whole house. The automatic transfer switch is amazing and I barely see an LED light flicker and no clocks reset etc. Basically a huge UPS. Now, when the power goes out for any period of time, go manually shut down the pool, AC if you need to etc. The big loads that are going to suck your battery. If it's only out for a few minutes or even a few hours, you'll be OK. Much simpler and your only risk is your parents aren't home or forget to turn off the big loads and you drain your batteries. I have EG-4 PowerPro batteries are working well with my Sol-Ark 15 wired as I described. Since you are going to put these in a garage, you could leave room for another inverter to parallel if it gets to be a routine grid problem.
 
Forget about all the critical loads panels and everything else and get one Sol-Ark 15 Inverter and set it up to power the whole house. The automatic transfer switch is amazing and I barely see an LED light flicker and no clocks reset etc. Basically a huge UPS. Now, when the power goes out for any period of time, go manually shut down the pool, AC if you need to etc.
There is one glaring weakness to this plan and that is the Sol-Ark 15K isn't strong enough to assuredly handle the entire house load at the moment of grid failure.

There are a number of large loads that would not be in the critical panel. HVAC #1 compressor and air handler, HVAC #2 compressor and air handler, water heater, dryer, stove, pool pump, pool heat pump, irrigation pump. If the grid hiccups during a random moment when many of those devices are on, the inverter will be overloaded and the entire house will shut down. Instead of solving the problem, I made it worse.

Further, with my elderly parents, having them flip a bunch of breakers is potentially troublesome if they get the wrong ones. The system should, as much as possible, be hands off for them.

This plan could work if I put in two inverters in the 12-15K size class, or one 30K inverter. Then it is likely the house will never be over that capability (though still possible if literally everything is on at that moment, but highly unlikely). But that is expensive, takes space, and there has to be breaker flipping or the battery will be gone in short order.

Their electrical system is already divided to a large degree between main and critical loads. Left is main, right is sub panel to become the critical panel. All but about a dozen 120 VAC are already in the subpanel.

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I'll need to move some 120 VAC to the subpanel and possibly move some circuits the other way, but that job isn't nearly as big as adding two inverters prior to the main panel. I will need to get a larger subpanel, but that work can be done with the main panel powered. Maybe there are enough non critical 120 VAC that the panels are already sized well enough. Looks like I have one 240 VAC breaker in the sub that can go to the main, and then I have 5 120 VAC spaces, so that might just do it. Or I can buy a few dual QO breakers if I am close.

Since all this work is downstream of the meter feed, I don't have to shut that off to do it, which is a major plus. The biggest disruption is putting in the transfer switch that connects critical panel to either the invert load output or to a main panel breaker so we can bypass the inverter. This will require the critical panel be depowered briefly.

A possible glitch in this plan is if the main panel bus bars are not 225 amp rated. If they aren't, I either have to replace the panel with one that has 225 amp bus bars with a 200 amp main breaker, or I have to change the main breaker to 175 amp (this is the 120% rule for back feeding breakers). If either of those happens, then I have to disconnect at the meter. I won't know until I open the panel and check the bus bar rating. The whole house will have to be down for this change.

The big loads that are going to suck your battery. If it's only out for a few minutes or even a few hours, you'll be OK. Much simpler and your only risk is your parents aren't home or forget to turn off the big loads and you drain your batteries.
The real risk is they are home and they don't notice the grid failure. Now the battery is gone quickly and the backup is depleted. Having a critical loads panel means they will notice (certain things are off) and that the loads are manageable (no heavy loads). They can then turn things off normally, like turning off lights, without having to use breakers.

Since I first posted this, my thinking has evolved in the following ways:

I don't like the breaker interlock system of transferring critical panel to grid or inverter. I think it would be simpler to have a transfer switch and that makes it clear what to do if the inverter fails, just throw this lever.

There seem to be more choices in hybrid inverters. Sol-Ark is the most expensive, EG4 18KPV is a bit less, and there are a number of lower cost ones like Deye, Growatt, Sungold, etc. Still trying to research what units will do the job, but the lower cost ones are enticing. I think anything capable of 10 KW VAC on battery would do it. I still want the super fast transfer to battery when grid fails and most inverters don't seem to spec that parameter (and I want to see it demonstrated regardless).

I'm not a fan of the EG4 PowerPro battery and the way it stacks. Makes battery servicing too hard since you have to unstack the inverter to get to it. I do like the server rack battery systems. More serviceable, more expandable.

I'll be visiting them soon and plan to install an Emporia monitor to see what their loads are really like.

Mike C.
 
This project isn't complete yet but you see where it's going. You don't HAVE to stack the EG4 Power Pro batteries under the EG4 inverter. You can use them with almost any inverter - in my case the Sol-Ark 15 which I much prefer to the EG4. I did have to custom fab some 2/0 cables with Amphenol connectors on the battery end and 3/8 rings on the Inverter end because the cables you get with the EG4 PowerPro batteries are only long enough to get to the inverter if it's directly overhead. If you are putting them in a garage you can set them on the floor if you wanted. They have feet.
 

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Update on my project:

After educating myself in this forum for the last 2 months (thanks to all who suffered my questions), I have come to the following proposed design:

Inverter: Amensolar N3H-X10-US (aka Sungold SG10KHB-48, Watts247 HWX series, and a few others). Likely source is Watss247.com, $2200. Rated 10 KW AC, 4 MPPT, IP65 (useful in Florida even indoors), fast transfer time, grid interactive. Appears to have the certs needed.


Battery: One or two Ruixu Lithi2-16, 16 KWH, 512. V, 314 AH. Cost is $3000 each. Unclear if it has all the certs, but I may run with no battery initally for inspection and add them later.


Panels: CanadianSolar CS6R-390MS-HL, 390W mono facial, 30 units in 3 strings of 10 each. Totals 11.7 KW name plate rating, which is just under the 11.764 KW max rating for tier 1 connection with FPL. Price is a full pallet of 30 for $3570. Likely source is Sig Solar.


I'd like to get the 395 watt rated version, also a pallet of 30, but that puts me over the line. Maybe I can argue my inverter is capped at 10 KW regardless. The 395 watt pallet is $3496, so actually cheaper for more power. Oh well.

I am resigned to the ugly fact I will have to put some sort of MLPE on each panel for the NEC rules on rapid shutdown. If I do that, I might as well get per panel monitoring to better aid in diagnosing issues and just being a data geek.

MLPE: Tigo TS4-A-S rapid shutdown and monitoring per panel, one Tigo TAP access point on the roof in the center of the array, one Tigo CCA connection box by the inverter. Cost about $1450.

Roof mount: TBD. The roof is "W" style concrete tiles. there appears to be two options: brackets the slide out from the tiles, or tile replacement mounts. I will definitely need to hire someone to do the mount install, add the rails, wire up the MLPE and panels, and bolt the panels down. I'm leaning to finding a roofer who can do solar, rather than a solar guy who claims to be good with roofs. This part of the project is the most undefined. There is enough room for the panels.

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The lighter area was a former pool water heater panel setup (constantly leaked, was removed recently). The taller trees on the left side of the picture are going to be removed. Two 15 panel rows will cover most of this roof area but still leave the 3 ft clearance to the ridge.

My estimate from https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/ is about 18.5 MWH per year. This is pretty much what is used over a year, so the system should be close to energy neutral. They have 100% net metering, so there is no benefit to going over.

Breaker panels: I am preserving the existing main panel and converting the existing subpanel into the backup panel. The main panel has 200 amp bus bars and this needs to have its breaker changed to 175 amps to meet code with an inverter grid back feed breaker installed. The backup panel will get a 100 amp main breaker installed (it is now lugs), and that will interlock with the inverter load breaker. The backup panel main breaker will be the bypass if the inverter fails.

I have measured the power usage on the backup circuits and a 10 KW inverter is plenty (have yet to see it go above 2.5 KW at any time). The backup circuits total about 7 KWH per day, so we might be good with one 16 KWH battery that would last 2 days of no sun. In a long duration grid down situation, managing loads could likely extend that to 5+ days. Any solar during this time greatly extends the duration, possibly for very long periods of time.

My most critical question:

Is my set of equipment going to pass permitting, inspection, and interconnection with the authorities? if not, what do I need to change?

Other questions:

Will Ruixu 16 KWH battery talk nicely with the Amensolar inverter? Anybody know?

Are there better choices for the primary equipment involved?

Anybody know a proper roof/solar guy near Sarasota, FL that will take on a panel install job?

Mike C.
 
Green Lancer or another similar service will tell you what will pass inspection in your location.
Their software will only allow them to design a system based on your address and desired equipment that will pass.
 
Green Lancer or another similar service will tell you what will pass inspection in your location.
Their software will only allow them to design a system based on your address and desired equipment that will pass.
Thanks, good advice.

My reading of the regs suggest the Amensolar inverter will pass (has the right certifications) and the Ruixu Lithi2-16 does not yet have the required certifications. The EG4 Indoor battery does, but more expensive and less capacity.

My instinct is to do a no battery grid tie system with the Amensolar inverter, get that permitted, inspected, interconnected. After that's all done, then hook up a battery or two. The complexity of the rules around the battery system is quite high, so avoiding those seems prudent.

The other strategy is to wait for Ruixu to get their certs done and try to certify it with the battery.

Mike C.
 
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