States/Cities Attempting To Limit You Self Produced Power...

[Nobodybusiness]

No such point has been made. It is not making a point to falsify a straw man fallacy, without having addressed the substance with even ordinary evidence, when the assumption (that we can just add things to a complex system without need for considering at length the long term stability) is extraordinary. What we know from the history of power production and other complex things, is that making more or less random changes to complex systems is more likely to harm stability than improve it.

“large complex systems which are assembled at random may be expected to be stable up to a certain critical level of connectance, and then, as this increases, to suddenly become unstable.”

 

[SparkyJJO]

So, after reading this heres my understanding.
The doofus in office says we need to go green. Solar and wind. Other govt entities say we need to tax you to save the grid if you make your own power.
Got it.
Hi, I'm from the gooberment, I'm here to help.
Lol.

Darn goobers.

 

[Badgerz]

F em and the horse they rode in on

 

[Tulex]

F em and the horse they rode in on

They don't ride in on horses, they ride our backs.

 

[50ShadesOfDirt]

Wrt OP, if one chooses to live in a city (or any highly populated area), and one must recognize that the city *is the AHJ*, then one abdicates the choice over delivery of any service (electricity, water, wastewater, trash, etc), or even over the terms/restrictions of delivery of service.

They can and will force you to "hook up" to said service ... in any way they deem "the way they want to do it". It was always like that in any city I've ever been in, and I didn't get to avoid any of that until I left the cities behind, and went rural, over 10 years ago now.

When was the last time any of you read, in full, the terms of the electricity service contract you sign with your grid, along with the terms of the PUC agreements that the local grid operates under? After my reading of many of these silly things (with all kinds of gotcha's in them), I knew I was going to be not only rural, but off-grid as well.

Wrt such AHJ's, the only real choice is to leave them and get to an area where you can do your own thing, and be self-sufficient (be responsible for providing any service you want) ... with today's technology, this is very possible to achieve in every service category, but does take effort.

 

[Zwy]

The thing that really pisses me off the most about my local power companies is their reaction to huge disasters. We get hurricanes every couple of years that destroy lots of the power infrastructure. Swarms of trucks and crews from around the country show up to rebuild it all. They work around the clock (I imagine the overtime $$$ must be huge?) to get the power back on. But they rebuild it all exactly the same, and the next storm takes it all down again. Then they tell us it would be too expensive to harden the grid. "Oh by the way, we need more money to pay for the repairs so we are adding another $8 "hurricane charge" to your bill." It is pure insanity, and the grid still is no better than it was before the storms.

My utility has been spending the big money here all winter. Underground boring, plowing cable, all new transformers between two small towns. Moving from 25Kv to 50Kv.

They are now moving all utility lines in one of the towns underground. The other town the city owns the local utility and those will still remain above ground. The main line here has had trouble for years, many wooded areas along the lines and having to trim trees constantly. I heard the audit 2 years ago found 1/2 the poles are rotted out, many were replaced 15 years ago when a major ice storm with high winds took power out for 2 weeks.

A major transmission line that runs thru here is getting an upgrade too. I've seen the helicopter dropping guys off at the towers all winter as they string new cable. Crazy bastards up there, even with high winds and they are up there for over 1/2 hour. Must pay good.

More wind farms being built here. Already have a large number. Latest project is to last 3 years. 40 acres was bought along that transmission line and a giant substation is being built. First stage is 80 wind generators going up south of the county line and another 150 north of the county line in second phase. My parents just signed up for the agreement for the farm that pays out for 40 years even if they don't build on it.

The only nuclear power plant in Iowa was shut down in 2020 after the derecho damaged it. Two coal fired plants also shut down that were the major generators for this area. Now the move is to more wind and solar farms due to government subsidies. I'm certain the line upgrades here have federal money attached. I'll wager all the new street lights will have cameras installed so the government can intrude upon privacy more.

 

[Quattrohead]

If you live in an incorporated city trash pickup should be included in your taxes.

A lot of cities are doing away with recycling because of the cost. They can’t recover the cost of doing it.

The last city we lived in stopped doing recycling.

Where we live now ( In the sticks) Republic Services does our Trash pickup weekly and recycling every 2 weeks.

$68 a month..

Okay I must be a complaining arsehole lol because trash is going from $35 per quarter to $20 a month. Gotta love Florida.

 

[NCislander]

Wrt OP, if one chooses to live in a city (or any highly populated area), and one must recognize that the city *is the AHJ*, then one abdicates the choice over delivery of any service (electricity, water, wastewater, trash, etc), or even over the terms/restrictions of delivery of service.

They can and will force you to "hook up" to said service ... in any way they deem "the way they want to do it". It was always like that in any city I've ever been in, and I didn't get to avoid any of that until I left the cities behind, and went rural, over 10 years ago now.

When was the last time any of you read, in full, the terms of the electricity service contract you sign with your grid, along with the terms of the PUC agreements that the local grid operates under? After my reading of many of these silly things (with all kinds of gotcha's in them), I knew I was going to be not only rural, but off-grid as well.

Wrt such AHJ's, the only real choice is to leave them and get to an area where you can do your own thing, and be self-sufficient (be responsible for providing any service you want) ... with today's technology, this is very possible to achieve in every service category, but does take effort.

Fully agree. Don't like the towns/cities, get out. Moved rural many years ago and never looked back.

 

[cs1234]

Okay I must be a complaining arsehole lol because trash is going from $35 per quarter to $20 a month. Gotta love Florida.

Might be nobody left to pick up your trash anyway, if they can't pass expanded E-verify checks..

 

[wattmatters]

Also ad hominem fallacy is not supporting evidence.

It wasn't presented as evidence that failure cannot occur, but that such media has repeatedly blamed any/all failures on VRE as part of a campaign in support of fossil fuel lobby. It's tiresome nonsense.

It isn't reasonably in question that large complex systems can fail catastrophically, in ways which range from difficult to practically impossible to repair in a timely fashion, it's history.

I've never said otherwise. I was just posting an example of a grid which has not failed in such a manner despite such having a high proportion (70%) of demand met by VRE. I make no generalisation from that example but what it does demonstrate is that catastrophic failure of a grid is not a given when a high proportion of VRE enters the mix.

 

[wattmatters]

On one of Andy's early videos (off grid garage) I believe he comments on his home has three phase, but one phase is set for critical loads, to enable the utility to quickly shead loads (when required) while maintaining some power supply to each home to run things like fridges and freezers (medical devices come to mind), I wondered if you can comment. Is this a 'thing' in Australia?

His supply is a little unusual in that I believe he has two phases of a 3-phase supply connected to power the house. Normally a home with 3-phase supply would have all three phases connected to the home's regular anytime supply (enabling 3-phase appliances to be connected - things like large ducted aircon systems, in-floor slab heating systems, or 3-phase EV chargers).

Most homes here have single phase supply. I have 3-phase supply and my grid-tied PV system is 3-phase.

His other phase is dedicated to a controlled load, namely his water heater (and perhaps previously also his pool pump which he now runs off-grid).

The timing of the power supplied to controlled loads is managed by the utility. In his State of QLD (and mine, NSW) it is common for ripple control devices in main circuit boards to control a relay so that power supply to these designated loads is not available during peak demand periods.

The utility sends a high frequency signal over the grid and these devices respond to that signal. Here they are referred to a "controlled loads" or "dedicated circuits". Such devices/appliances must be hardwired - a controlled load is not permitted to be used for regular power outlets - those must only be connected to the regular anytime supply.

This is a pic of my ripple control device:



Andy will have something similar, although some older controlled loads use a mechanical timer controlled device.

There are usually a couple of options for having a controlled load. One enables power supply for about 15-18 hours/day, the other for 6-9 hours/day, and consumption by these controlled loads is charged at lower off-peak tariff rates. Suitable for things like water heaters, pool pumps, slab heating. I have one such circuit and a dedicated utility meter for it (my regular supply has a separate 3-phase meter):



But given my water heater now draws almost all of its energy from my grid-tied PV via a smart diverter, I am rarely drawing energy via that controlled load. That register reading of 6408 kWh has not moved since October. I use this to divert my PV energy instead:



So yes, in the scenario where these controlled loads are on, and the grid needs to rapidly shed load (like what happened when the Callide B coal power station in QLD exploded) then the grid operators can send the signal out to turn off these loads. In that particular case it either wasn't fast enough or sufficient to prevent grid outage / load shedding across regions of the state.

Larger aircon systems here also have the ability to be controlled via DRED, whereby the unit can be instructed to operate at either 0% power (i.e. off), 50% power, 75% power or normal operation. While DRED capability is a standard requirement of aircon systems, DRED control by grid operators has never really taken hold here.

My ducted AC does have this capability, and I am contemplating using it myself as I would like to reduce how much power it consumes at certain times (especially at night).

 

[OffGridForGood]

Thanks for posting all this detail Wattmatters, very interesting.
I myself use programable electronic hot water tank timers (intermatic 30) for self-limiting some items in my set up to 'make them' operate durng sunny part of the day in Summer, or during off peak rate TOU in winter.
In Australia the three phase residential service is not a requirment then, since the control signals can be sent out via the conductors themselves, super idea.
@Hedges will no doubt be interested in all these systems of load shedding - and that Three-phase residential service no doubt!

 

[OffGridForGood]

It is interesting to see so many options to allow load shedding based on pretty simple signals that would allow the grid operators a measure of control to lower total demand, while allowing some power service to continue, ie for things like fridges and freezers, while cutting high demand non-essential items A/C and electric HWT. Clearly a good idea, with many practical applications potentially.

 

[NPhil]

It wasn't presented as evidence that failure cannot occur, but that such media has repeatedly blamed any/all failures on VRE as part of a campaign in support of fossil fuel lobby. It's tiresome nonsense.


I've never said otherwise. I was just posting an example of a grid which has not failed in such a manner despite such having a high proportion (70%) of demand met by VRE. I make no generalisation from that example but what it does demonstrate is that catastrophic failure of a grid is not a given when a high proportion of VRE enters the mix.

Media repeatedly blaming is not evidence which refutes my claim. Neither is your opinion that "it's tiresome nonsense". Do your comments have a purpose, if they are not attempts to cast, eh, FUD on the substance of my comment, or defend yours?
I think it's fairly clear that there are sound reasons to proceed with considerable caution when tinkering with power systems, and accusing people who dare to say so of bad motives is unlikely to encourage proceeding with caution. Do you disagree?

 

[NPhil]

...

So yes, in the scenario where these controlled loads are on, and the grid needs to rapidly shed load (like what happened when the Callide B coal power station in QLD exploded) then the grid operators can send the signal out to turn off these loads. In that particular case it either wasn't fast enough or sufficient to prevent grid outage / load shedding across regions of the state.

Larger aircon systems here also have the ability to be controlled via DRED, whereby the unit can be instructed to operate at either 0% power (i.e. off), 50% power, 75% power or normal operation. While DRED capability is a standard requirement of aircon systems, DRED control by grid operators has never really taken hold here.

My ducted AC does have this capability, and I am contemplating using it myself as I would like to reduce how much power it consumes at certain times (especially at night).

That all strikes me as quite a lot of complexity, which I doubt 1 in 10 people around here (Silicon Valley) would have time and talent enough to learn to to even guess usefully what happens in a situation where many devices got their logic scrambled.

 

[wattmatters]

That all strikes me as quite a lot of complexity

What, controlled loads? Millions of them have been in use on the grid here for many decades. The controller in my home has been there for at least 30 years. DRED is used in many places as well, it is hardly a new thing. I think grids can cope with these pretty easily without fear of causing system chaos. If anything they help with grid stability, not hinder it.

Media repeatedly blaming is not evidence which refutes my claim. Neither is your opinion that "it's tiresome nonsense". Do your comments have a purpose, if they are not attempts to cast, eh, FUD on the substance of my comment, or defend yours?

You are misrepresenting what I have written.

I think it's fairly clear that there are sound reasons to proceed with considerable caution when tinkering with power systems

I agree, but equally we have pressing reasons to get the F on with some changes because we are causing irreparable damage to our environment. Fortunately we are able to observe how the grid performs in those regions which are forging ahead with rapid change.

 

[NPhil]

What, controlled loads? Millions of them have been in use on the grid here for many decades. The controller in my home has been there for at least 30 years. DRED is used in many places as well, it is hardly a new thing. I think grids can cope with these pretty easily without fear of causing system chaos. If anything they help with grid stability, not hinder it.

You are misrepresenting what I have written.

I agree, but equally we have pressing reasons to get the F on with some changes because we are causing irreparable damage to our environment. Fortunately we are able to observe how the grid performs in those regions which are forging ahead with rapid change.

You might be projecting. It is your comments which have repeatedly misrepresented mine. No one has claimed that controlled loads don't exist, or haven't been in use in some places. The easily verifiable experience of operators of power distribution systems, over many decades, is that the systems tend to grow in complexity past the ability of people to predict or control the system's behavior reliably, while the majority of users become more dependent on it, not less, and recent history is characterized by politicians hand out policy and "tax incentives" (taxpayer dollars) which tend to add complexity, reduce capacity, and discourage good practices.
. Your comment dismissed that experience, and knowledge, with, essentially: "Rupert has bad motives". I dared to point out the room elephant. Now you are escalating the accusations, language, and going political, stating as fact relevant matters which are in dispute (it certainly is not generally agreed that any particular purported solution to "climate change" must be got on with at any level or risk).

 

[Quattrohead]

I can definitely piss higher up the wall than either of you too LOL.
I don't know why anyone would argue with someone from another country or continent when you don't know how theirs works.

 

[NPhil]

I can definitely piss higher up the wall than either of you too LOL.
I don't know why anyone would argue with someone from another country or continent when you don't know how theirs works.

Oh yeah? I have a story:
Years ago, my brother and I (and my dog) were spending a few nights in a campground, and got to talking with the neighbors, a young couple from Australia (my brother and I were young then). Somewhere in the conversation, I asked them what about the US impressed them the most. The answer was immediate, and emphatic: "The expanses of wild country!" They explained that most of their impression of the US was from US TV, and it was mostly urban (crime dramas, if I remember), so, "we thought you had paved the whole country." My answer was "It's a big country."

But there are some things which are fairly universal. Power distribution, and...

Australian vegan pens nasty note to neighbor for hosting BBQ

A vegan in Australia claiming to be sickened by the smell of meat from a neighbor's BBQ threatened to file a formal complaint and take her case to social media.

www.foxnews.com

 

[wattmatters]

You might be projecting.

Perhaps. Let's leave it, it's adding no value.

Instead we can all watch the natural experiment taking place here, with South Australia at the vanguard (with other States following closely behind). Next Spring and Summer (Sep-Feb) will be particularly interesting as the grid there pushes beyond 80% VRE and more of the distributed supply and demand control mechanisms take effect.

Last year the State was powered with 73.5% VRE in Spring and 80.1% VRE in Summer. Those are numbers to scare the pants off any grid operator I reckon.

Western Australia has also instituted grid operator remote supply control mechanisms for rooftop PV, and QLD is doing the same, albeit with a far cruder (but reliable) method of using ripple control signals.

Meanwhile electricity distributors here will be introducing new fee structures for power flowing in both directions (up to know all charges have related to power flowing to premises, not from them), but such changes need to be revenue neutral. IOW at times there will be an additional cost for supplying power to the grid when it's not needed. This will come with additional incentive to supply power when it is.