diy solar

diy solar

SunGoldPower Low Frequency Inverter UL1741

Ok, so I got in my Growatt 12k Clone (which is a sungoldpower 8k)

If I understand the issue correctly, the growatt 12k bonds neutral to ground in offgrid mode and then in on-grid/passthrough mode the growatt disconnects this bond? Is that the root of the issue with these units? (autotransformer things aside).

balance imbalances in the legs.
 
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When you switch input away from grid the inverter phase will start to drift away from grid.

If you wait long enough (and Growatt is smart enough to release from an open circuit AC input, which is not a sure thing), when switch reconnects to grid, inverter will go through a resync'g before closing pass-through relay.

If you switch off grid then switch back to grid in a short to moderate amount of time, there may be a loud bang, inverter pass through relay may still be engaged with an out of phase alignment between inverter and grid. If you are lucky only the AC input breaker pops and the inverter shuts down for overload condition.
 
Fingers crossed for it being an isolation transformer.
It is almost certainly acting as an isolation transformer when in battery/inverter mode. The question is how the AC hooks up when in pass-through mode. At least some of these low cost AIO units have the AC hooked up to the output of the transformer.... meaning the transformer is acting as an autotransformer when in pass-through mode.
 
Ok, so I got in my Growatt 12k Clone (which is a sungoldpower 8k)

If I understand the issue correctly, the growatt 12k bonds neutral to ground in offgrid mode and then in on-grid/passthrough mode the growatt disconnects this bond? Is that the root of the issue with these units? (autotransformer things aside).



The problem is how to handle the neutral.

GW has never stated exactly how to handle it, plus when clarification was requested there never was a response. There is not any neutral input port and much confusion over whether it is a isolation transformer or autotransformer under grid power.

It will work fine if you treat it as a off grid inverter with no ac input. If you want a type of grid connection for backup purposes, do not input ac power into the GW and install a 3 pole transfer switch after the GW so you can treat the GW as a SDS system with a switched neutral.

Post up how you intend to wire this up.
 
Duh ... yeah, if it isn't connected to the grid, well, it isn't connected to the grid. Can the Growatt's relay be used to trigger the transfer switch and is the transfer switch fast enough for it to be invisible to electronics?
Use a UPS for electronics. You do not want a fast switch due to phasing issues. This is why there is always a delay when using a transfer switch. It's also the reason the clocks in my house need to be reset when the local power company switches source.
 
Use a UPS for electronics. You do not want a fast switch due to phasing issues. This is why there is always a delay when using a transfer switch. It's also the reason the clocks in my house need to be reset when the local power company switches source.

I contacted sungoldpower about these units. They said the ETL listed unit has an isolation transformer inside.

I can confirm in offgrid mode that this unit for sure acts like an isolation transformer when offgrid.

Here is a photo of the transformer, which looks exactly the same as the GW to me.

PXL_20221126_152355788.MP.jpg

The biggest difference I see with this unit is that it's listed. It has an intertek number on this side and I don't know how they get that if it's not safe to connect to the grid.

Ideally I would have just this one inverter grid connected. However I have 6 MPP 8048 units that I can use to do battery charging from the grid if need be. (Pretty much just use it as a battery charger)

Maybe I should change the title of this thread as it's going a little longer than I thought it would.
 
When a Growatt LF, AIMS LF, or like inverters are connected with grid input and pass-through relays are closed, the inverter is synchronized to, and operating in parallel with grid. The center tapped output transformer secondary winding of inverter is also acting as an autotransformer to provide 240/120 vac output. With no AC input neutral connection (240ac input only), all imbalanced 120vac loading on output of inverter is being carried by inverter output transformer and the 120vac power is supplied by the output transformer transforming AC input 240vac input power down to 120vac.

The reason they do not provide AC input neutral connection is they do not have any provision to check for excessive neutral current due to output transformer trying to correct for any AC input L1-N, L2-N imbalance. (other than transformer getting too hot)

If AC input neutral is connected to AC output neutral, as more transformer neutral balancing current happens, less transformer core peak magnetization range is available for inverter primary winding transfer power. In the extreme case of imbalance, the transformer can overheat without any actual inverter AC output load on inverter. The primary issue come into play when the low voltage primary side is required to transfer power for charging or AC output load supplementing. These model inverters do not provide AC output load supplementing (load shaving).

If a significant percentage of the transformer VA capability is eaten up trying to balance AC input L1-N-L2 there is less transformer VA capacity available for inverter transformer primary winding side power transfer. This can result in transformer core getting closer to saturation with a given charging load that should be no problem for transformer to handle. When this happens the current in primary side switching MOSFET's can shoot up to destructive levels due to transformer core approaching saturation.

Xantrex, Outback, and like LF inverters, monitor for the neutral imbalance current carried by output transformer. They will release pass-through relay connection to grid if AC input neutral imbalance correction current gets greater than a few amps. This allows them to have common connection between input-output neutral. To these inverters, AC input neutral imbalance is just another AC input qualifying criteria, just like min-max AC input voltage and AC input frequency range limits.

Having the extra current sensing points on AC paths within the inverter has a couple of other benefits.

Any 120vac output load current is carried directly to L-N AC input so 120vac loads do not consume transformer VA capacity during AC pass-through.

The extra AC current sensing also allows inverter to load shave and load supplementing, allowing output power to be supplemented by inverter battery power resulting in output power capability greater than inverter or AC input (as in case of generator input) is capable of alone. This also allows inverter to limit the maximum AC input current drawn which is very useful when operating from a generator to stay within limits of generator capability and with battery power supplementing allowing more AC output load than can be provided by generator alone.
 
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This from the add copy of a retailer that frequents this forum:
An all-in-one unit that can provide power via solar array, 48v battery bank or generator/utility.
Compatible to mains voltage or generator power
This from Growatt's very lackluster manual:
The whole system also need other devices to achieve complete running such as PV modules, generator, or utility grid.
Configurable AC/ solar input priority via LCD setting
AC Input/Output Connection CAUTION!! Before connecting to AC input power source, please install a separate AC breaker between inverter and AC input power source. This will ensure the inverter can be securely disconnected during maintenance and fully protected from over current of AC input. The recommended spec of AC breaker is 40A for 4KW~6KW, 80A for 8KW~12KW.
 
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So if they aren't safe to connect to the grid, how do they get ETL? I don't understand that part.

The title to my OP is confusing because I thought the SGP UL compliant inverter and the growatt were the same. However it appears that they are not. I plan to confirm this by checking to see if neutral /ground bond maintains the same state (floating neutral) in bypass mode.

I will report back with my findings.


I asked sungoldpower to confirm what type of transformer is in this particular unit.in an email and here was the response.
"
Hi Donny D,

Thank you for your inquiry.

The the SGP 12k UL inverters use an isolation transformer.

If you have any other questions, please be free to contact us.

Best Regards
"
 
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The the SGP 12k UL inverters use an isolation transformer.
Output transformer is an isolation transformer to 48v inverter circuitry. It is an autotransformer to AC input.

With only 240vac input, and inverter in standby, it is the way AC input passthrough to AC output produces 120vac.

Inverter does not have to be in standby mode but it makes the point clearer as to how the 120vac output is created.
When charging, the transformer 48v inverter side is a load on the transformer supplied by 240vac AC side winding of transformer.

Some similar inverters manufacturers allow 120vac only input operation by applying the 120vac input between neutral and one 'L' leg. In this case, 240vac output is stepped up by autotransformer secondary windings.

Another way that allows full inverter power with only 120vac is to reconfigure the two 120vac winding halves of the output side of transformer in parallel configuration. Xantrex XW series allow this 120vac only reconfiguration of output transformer.
 
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Output transformer is an isolation transformer to 48v inverter circuitry. It is an autotransformer to AC input.

With only 240vac input, and inverter in standby, it is the way AC input passthrough to AC output produces 120vac.

Inverter does not have to be in standby mode but it makes the point clearer as to how the 120vac output is created.
When charging, the transformer 48v inverter side is a load on the transformer supplied by 240vac AC side winding of transformer.

Some similar inverters manufacturers allow 120vac only input operation by applying the 120vac input between neutral and one 'L' leg. In this case, 240vac output is stepped up by autotransformer secondary windings. Another way that allows full inverter power with only 120vac is to reconfigure the two 120vac winding halves of the output side of transformer in parallel configuration. Xantrex XW series allow this 120vac only reconfiguration of output transformer.
That still doesn't answer how these units are getting listed if its unsafe to connect to the grid.

I will ask SGP for what they submitted to ETL so we can see for sure what was reviewed.

There may be some confusion because *I* messed this thread up with an incorrect title. I have updated it now so it accurately reflects the question I am asking. Many apologies for this oversight.

There are two inverters that look the same, but aren't the same. One is listed and one is not. The unlisted model is pretty much the same as the growatt.


 
I would not trust any Chinese 'certified' product. I have previously worked in and with China on product development for 17 years and certification in China is more a result of payment 'fees' for certification.

Certification criteria also have use case boundaries that if a particular setup is defined as outside these boundaries, it can be excluded from certification requirements. This is one reason why there is not any input AC neutral terminal connection on these inverters.

Certification does not assure local electrical code compliance.
 
I would not trust any Chinese 'certified' product. I have previously worked in and with China on product development for 17 years and certification in China is more a result of payment 'fees' for certification.

Certification criteria also have use case boundaries that if a particular setup is defined as outside these boundaries, it can be excluded from certification requirements. This is one reason why there is not any input AC neutral terminal connection on these inverters.

Certification does not assure local electrical code compliance.
Well it isn't being certified, its listed by ETL. So ETL isn't reliable? These are genuine questions.

PXL_20221128_153355780.MP.jpg


 
I will make a video and post it up so people can see how these units work and maybe poke some holes in my test methods.
 
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So I haven't gotten a chance to make the video yet, but in some initial testing it would appear this unit is in fact different.

I connected 240v to the unit from a genset and ran it in passthrough mode and there is no continuity between ground and neutral. My genset has a bonded ground/neutral so when I hook up the ground wire there is continuity between ground and neutral, but the ohms between ground and neutral is 600+

In battery mode there is also no continuity between ground and neutral.

Not sure if this changes anyone's opinions of the SGP unit or not, but hoping I can get some feedback on my testing methods.

If there was a ground neutral bond being created in the unit, there would be a very low ohm load between the two and the continuity meter would go off.
 
From when Filterguy was helping me try and figure out the spfxxxxt ...
 
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From when Filterguy was helping me try and figure out the spfxxxxt ...

When the inverter is being powered by the grid and no load on the output, check the voltage between neutral and ground on the output.
  • If the voltage is millivolts, there is a bond provided by the inverter while on the grid.
  • If there is a significant voltage, there is no bond provided by the inverter while on the grid.
Well I can check this, but there isn't even continuity between neutral and ground. Did you watch the video?
 
From when Filterguy was helping me try and figure out the spfxxxxt ...

When the inverter is being powered by the grid and no load on the output, check the voltage between neutral and ground on the output.
  • If the voltage is millivolts, there is a bond provided by the inverter while on the grid.
  • If there is a significant voltage, there is no bond provided by the inverter while on the grid.
The difference is 6+ volts between neutral and ground when in pass through mode. The continuity part of the meter is also showing no connection.

Here is the video.
 
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