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Top Balancing "How to"

Made bigger wires, now charging at 10 amps. I should have thought about that. One other question, now no matter what I set the voltage to, it is charging at 3.5V and 10.21A. it is in constant current mode, not constant voltage mode. does that change as the battery gets closer to 3.65 amps, back to constant voltage mode? This is the Kungber SPS3010 that Will and others recommend .
Yes, once the cells get close enough to 3.65v, it will switch from constant current to constant voltage.
Just make sure to adjust the voltage when it is not connected to the cells. Be very patient, it will take a while.

Excellent resources:

Hopefully you first charged using a BMS until high cell voltage disconnect, that helps a LOT with how long it takes.
Unfortunately a 30 volt power supply won't charge a 16 cell battery, but likely you have some method of charging?
 
The voltage setting to 3.65V should be done with a DMM - the powersupply display may or may not be exact.
If you set it lower it takes longer to reach the full charge.

Set to 3.65V, connect to cells, let it charge until it reaches zero current. It can take a few days depending on the capacity of the cells and how many there are. Remember, you're multiplying your Ah rating times how many cells you have in parallel. 100Ah cells times 16 cells is 1600Ah to charge - if it starts at 30% that's still 1120amps at whatever your supply is putting out. If that's 10A then you have a over a hundred hours of charging.
 
How much benefit is there to doing this with new higher Ah batteries verses just building the 16s pack with a 2A active BMS and hooking it up to the SCC and letting it do its thing over time (however long that might take)?
 
How much benefit is there to doing this with new higher Ah batteries verses just building the 16s pack with a 2A active BMS and hooking it up to the SCC and letting it do its thing over time (however long that might take)?
always top balance, of the difference is too big it will limit your capacity.
 
How much benefit is there to doing this with new higher Ah batteries verses just building the 16s pack with a 2A active BMS and hooking it up to the SCC and letting it do its thing over time (however long that might take)?
In theory you can do this. In practice, it can take a very long time. If you have a 2A balance current, that's probably 2A moved, which I believe is implemented as a 2A draw from high cell, then 2A dump to low cell, or 1A net current, on one cell at a time. Suppose you have 8 cells at 30%SoC and 8 at 70%SoC. For convenience, assume 100Ah. That's 8*20%*100Ah moved, or 160Ah. Balance takes place mostly at the higher part of charging. If you figure 4hr/day in that charging high window, that's 160Ah/(4Ah/day)=40 days to balance. At start, your capacity will be about 20% of the rated capacity of your batteries. To add to the problem, your BMS is likely to shut the system down for cell overvoltage in the early part of this and stop all balance.

If your calculations say this is acceptable to you, then yes, you can try it.

ETA: it's reasonably common, especially if you're in a hurry, to connect in series with BMS, charge to cell overvolt, then disassemble and connect in parallel to top balance. This can drastically reduce the time spent charging at 3.65V.
 
How much benefit is there to doing this with new higher Ah batteries verses just building the 16s pack with a 2A active BMS and hooking it up to the SCC and letting it do its thing over time (however long that might take)?
As long as the cells get top balanced, your objective is achieved. People like to play with settings, but balancing below 3.4v is counterproductive.
 
How much benefit is there to doing this with new higher Ah batteries verses just building the 16s pack with a 2A active BMS and hooking it up to the SCC and letting it do its thing over time (however long that might take)?
That depends on your particular set of cells.
It also depends on your bms and/or active balancer.
Also depends on how you cycle your batteries.
 
How much benefit is there to doing this with new higher Ah batteries verses just building the 16s pack with a 2A active BMS and hooking it up to the SCC and letting it do its thing over time (however long that might take)?
As long as the initial charging voltage can be limited to avoid over volt at the cell level this method is perfectly fine IMO. No issues with mine.

For all the time and trouble that is posted about top balancing, this method could well be superior. Of course if the cells are delivered at a very different state of charge this could again take a long time. I suspect commercial battery makers are not top balancing in parallel.
 
In theory you can do this. In practice, it can take a very long time. If you have a 2A balance current, that's probably 2A moved, which I believe is implemented as a 2A draw from high cell, then 2A dump to low cell, or 1A net current, on one cell at a time.
If the top cell loses 2ah and the bottom cell gains 2ah I see a 4ah net change between the top and bottom cells.
 
If the top cell loses 2ah and the bottom cell gains 2ah I see a 4ah net change between the top and bottom cells
Thing is, it takes 2A for, say, 1s from the top cell, then dumps the power it collected at 2A for 1s. I suppose you could argue it's still 2A balance, because the two cells approach each other in SoC at 2Ah/hr.
 
OK and my example assumed an accumulated 2 amps for a full hour. When one has lost 2 the other has gained 2.

If one is 267 and the other is 275 there is 8 difference.

After transferring 2 one is at 269 and the other is 273 with just 4 difference.
 
Just in case people have not had benefit of viewing Steve at Overkill's battery building manual...

Appendix C: About Cell Balancing
In Section Section 2.3 , we asserted that each battery cell must be top-balanced separately, before assembling
the battery pack.
Here, we will prove why.
Q: But Steve, doesn’t the BMS have a built-in balancer?
A: Yes, the BMS has a built-in balancing function. HOWEVER no, it is not capable of doing an initial balance
on new cells.
The balancer works by connecting a tiny bleed resistor (see Figure C.1 below) to the cells with the highest
voltage, and the excess energy in those cells turns into waste heat. This is a slow process. The intention is that
the BMS can maintain the balance on the cells as they slowly drift over their lifetime.

A batch of new cells needs to be top-balanced before they can be expected to charge properly as a battery
pack.
Q: Why?
A: Because of the nature of the LiFePO4 voltage curve. At the top end of a charge cycle, the cell voltage spikes
quickly, and charging must be stopped to prevent damage to the cells. If one cell is at a higher state of charge,
(in terms of amp-hours or coulombs), even by a small amount, it will spike while the other cells are still in the
"bulk" phase of their charge cycle (See Figure C.1 below). On the linked graph, the red line is the highest
cell, which triggers a "cell overvoltage" alarm before the pink/green cells get to a full charge. The BMS must
then disconnect to protect the high cell, and the battery pack will be at a lower voltage than expected. You
want all the cells to spike up at the same time, and the only way this can happen is for them to be well
balanced.

Q: OK, so how would one go about top-balancing their cells?
A: There are several ways to manually balance cells, depending on what equipment you have access to:
The best way in my opinion, is to use a regulated power supply to charge the cells to 3.65 volts each. The cells
would be connected in parallel as a single cell and charged together (without the BMS), then re-assembled
into the series-connected pack with the BMS. Will Prowse demonstrates in this video:
Cheapest way: Connect a load to the high cell in your pack to quickly bleed off the excess energy. I tried this
method using a random car light bulb with some alligator clips on the leads. (see Figure C.3 below) You need
to watch the cell voltages closely because it’s easy to go too far.

What does NOT work is the old recommendation of connecting your new cells in parallel and letting them
passively equalize for hours or days. This does not work because of the flat charge curve. They are at almost
the same voltage even if they are far apart in state-of-charge. Basically the cells don't know that they aren't
balanced unless you can push them into the very top end of the charge cycle.
Q: What about cell matching?
A: Cells have a certain internal resistance. Grade-A cells are tested at the factory to confirm that their internal
resistance is acceptable, usually <1 milliohm. If your battery pack is made of grade-B cells or cells of different
ages or if they have been damaged before, then they are not matched. Mismatched cells will quickly become
unbalanced when the pack is cycled. This is one reason why you should pay for good grade-A cells.
I bought 4 of the very cheapest low grade garbage cells from Aliexpress (See Figure C.4 below), just for
experimenting. I balanced them several times, but after even 1 cycle of charging and discharging, they are way
out of balance. This is because they are not matched at all. Some cells have a high internal resistance, so they
get hotter than the better cells, and this puts them at a lower state of charge. If you are trying to use crappy
cells like this, you will only be able to charge them up to ~80% to avoid constant cell over-voltages. This might
be good for a big cheap solar storage bank, but it can cause big problems for a pack that you cycle daily, or
use with large loads.

Q: I’m still not convinced.
A: Here’s a real-world scenario that happened. A vendor in China that won’t be named shipped four 280Ah
LiFePO4 cells to a customer in Florida. This vendor was nice enough to email a video of the battery voltages
being measured before they were shipped. Here were the voltages, screen-captured :
● Cell 1: 3.3298V
● Cell 2: 3.2999V
● Cell 3: 3.3281V
● Cell 4: 3.3269V
Measuring Cells Like This Doesn’t Mean Much
From this info, we can work out that the cell delta is 29.9 millivolts. No need to top-balance these cells, right?
They’re almost identical, right? The customer figured as much, because he didn’t top-balance them. He was
in a hurry. Here was the output from the BMS iPhone app during the initial bring-up of the pack, after less
than 1/2 hour of charging::
Figure C.6: The effects of a badly-balanced cell
Steve’s advice to the customer, thinking that these might be crappy cells, was to top-balance the batteries.
The customer did so, and reported that three of the cells took approximately 7.5Ah, but cell #2 charged for
over a day, and when it was finished took a total of around 140 Ah. With that, we can work out a timeline of
what happened:
1. The supplier from China shipped three of the batteries at 90% charge, and one battery at 50% charge.
This should never happen. But it happened.
2. The supplier’s reassuring video of the cell voltages didn’t mean anything. Recall that LiFePO4 battery
discharge curves are extremely flat. This means that the capacity can vary wildly, but the voltage
won’t change much. We can actually see in the measurements from the vendor that the delta was 30
millivolts. Consulting the discharge curve for the battery above, a 30 millivolt delta (which we saw in
cell #2) can mean as much as a 40% state of charge difference.
3. During the battery pack bring-up, the cell overvoltage protection kicked in on cell #1, and cut off the
charging current. This happened because the cells were not balanced.
4. Steve recommended a top-balance, which was done, taking over a day at a charge rate of 10 amps.
After the pack was reassembled, the cell delta was around two millivolts (much better). The battery
successfully discharged down to its cutoff limit, and charged back up to 100% with no issue.
This, dear reader, is why you top balance. Don’t trust voltages when working with LiFePO4 batteries. When
it comes to vendors, the rule is: Trust, but verify . Verify by top-balancing.
Figure C.7: LiFePO4 battery discharge curves are extremely flat


If anyone needs or wants the figures and illustrations just ask and I'll capture and post them.
You can also download the whole manual from Overkill Solar.

The moral of the story is, TOP BALANCE YOUR CELLS BEFORE ASSEMBLING THEM INTO A BATTERY.
 
Just in case people have not had benefit of viewing Steve at Overkill's battery building manual...

Appendix C: About Cell Balancing
In Section Section 2.3 , we asserted that each battery cell must be top-balanced separately, before assembling
the battery pack.
Here, we will prove why.
Q: But Steve, doesn’t the BMS have a built-in balancer?
A: Yes, the BMS has a built-in balancing function. HOWEVER no, it is not capable of doing an initial balance
on new cells.
The balancer works by connecting a tiny bleed resistor (see Figure C.1 below) to the cells with the highest
voltage, and the excess energy in those cells turns into waste heat. This is a slow process. The intention is that
the BMS can maintain the balance on the cells as they slowly drift over their lifetime.

A batch of new cells needs to be top-balanced before they can be expected to charge properly as a battery
pack.
Q: Why?
A: Because of the nature of the LiFePO4 voltage curve. At the top end of a charge cycle, the cell voltage spikes
quickly, and charging must be stopped to prevent damage to the cells. If one cell is at a higher state of charge,
(in terms of amp-hours or coulombs), even by a small amount, it will spike while the other cells are still in the
"bulk" phase of their charge cycle (See Figure C.1 below). On the linked graph, the red line is the highest
cell, which triggers a "cell overvoltage" alarm before the pink/green cells get to a full charge. The BMS must
then disconnect to protect the high cell, and the battery pack will be at a lower voltage than expected. You
want all the cells to spike up at the same time, and the only way this can happen is for them to be well
balanced.

Q: OK, so how would one go about top-balancing their cells?
A: There are several ways to manually balance cells, depending on what equipment you have access to:
The best way in my opinion, is to use a regulated power supply to charge the cells to 3.65 volts each. The cells
would be connected in parallel as a single cell and charged together (without the BMS), then re-assembled
into the series-connected pack with the BMS. Will Prowse demonstrates in this video:
Cheapest way: Connect a load to the high cell in your pack to quickly bleed off the excess energy. I tried this
method using a random car light bulb with some alligator clips on the leads. (see Figure C.3 below) You need
to watch the cell voltages closely because it’s easy to go too far.

What does NOT work is the old recommendation of connecting your new cells in parallel and letting them
passively equalize for hours or days. This does not work because of the flat charge curve. They are at almost
the same voltage even if they are far apart in state-of-charge. Basically the cells don't know that they aren't
balanced unless you can push them into the very top end of the charge cycle.
Q: What about cell matching?
A: Cells have a certain internal resistance. Grade-A cells are tested at the factory to confirm that their internal
resistance is acceptable, usually <1 milliohm. If your battery pack is made of grade-B cells or cells of different
ages or if they have been damaged before, then they are not matched. Mismatched cells will quickly become
unbalanced when the pack is cycled. This is one reason why you should pay for good grade-A cells.
I bought 4 of the very cheapest low grade garbage cells from Aliexpress (See Figure C.4 below), just for
experimenting. I balanced them several times, but after even 1 cycle of charging and discharging, they are way
out of balance. This is because they are not matched at all. Some cells have a high internal resistance, so they
get hotter than the better cells, and this puts them at a lower state of charge. If you are trying to use crappy
cells like this, you will only be able to charge them up to ~80% to avoid constant cell over-voltages. This might
be good for a big cheap solar storage bank, but it can cause big problems for a pack that you cycle daily, or
use with large loads.

Q: I’m still not convinced.
A: Here’s a real-world scenario that happened. A vendor in China that won’t be named shipped four 280Ah
LiFePO4 cells to a customer in Florida. This vendor was nice enough to email a video of the battery voltages
being measured before they were shipped. Here were the voltages, screen-captured :
● Cell 1: 3.3298V
● Cell 2: 3.2999V
● Cell 3: 3.3281V
● Cell 4: 3.3269V
Measuring Cells Like This Doesn’t Mean Much
From this info, we can work out that the cell delta is 29.9 millivolts. No need to top-balance these cells, right?
They’re almost identical, right? The customer figured as much, because he didn’t top-balance them. He was
in a hurry. Here was the output from the BMS iPhone app during the initial bring-up of the pack, after less
than 1/2 hour of charging::
Figure C.6: The effects of a badly-balanced cell
Steve’s advice to the customer, thinking that these might be crappy cells, was to top-balance the batteries.
The customer did so, and reported that three of the cells took approximately 7.5Ah, but cell #2 charged for
over a day, and when it was finished took a total of around 140 Ah. With that, we can work out a timeline of
what happened:
1. The supplier from China shipped three of the batteries at 90% charge, and one battery at 50% charge.
This should never happen. But it happened.
2. The supplier’s reassuring video of the cell voltages didn’t mean anything. Recall that LiFePO4 battery
discharge curves are extremely flat. This means that the capacity can vary wildly, but the voltage
won’t change much. We can actually see in the measurements from the vendor that the delta was 30
millivolts. Consulting the discharge curve for the battery above, a 30 millivolt delta (which we saw in
cell #2) can mean as much as a 40% state of charge difference.
3. During the battery pack bring-up, the cell overvoltage protection kicked in on cell #1, and cut off the
charging current. This happened because the cells were not balanced.
4. Steve recommended a top-balance, which was done, taking over a day at a charge rate of 10 amps.
After the pack was reassembled, the cell delta was around two millivolts (much better). The battery
successfully discharged down to its cutoff limit, and charged back up to 100% with no issue.
This, dear reader, is why you top balance. Don’t trust voltages when working with LiFePO4 batteries. When
it comes to vendors, the rule is: Trust, but verify . Verify by top-balancing.
Figure C.7: LiFePO4 battery discharge curves are extremely flat


If anyone needs or wants the figures and illustrations just ask and I'll capture and post them.
You can also download the whole manual from Overkill Solar.

The moral of the story is, TOP BALANCE YOUR CELLS BEFORE ASSEMBLING THEM INTO A BATTERY.
Interesting and relevant, but I do believe he's also discussing in general terms and assuming the use of a more traditional passive BMS.

I might be wrong (I often am), but in my mine the end result should be similar if top balancing first or just hooking up a battery w/o top balancing and letting an active balancer do it's job. But yes, that "end" result could take quite a long time if the batteries are initially at a significantly different SOC, especially in a higher Ah pack with many cells.

Right or wrong, I agree initial top balancing makes the most sense. The downside is having to purchase a regulated power supply (assuming most folks don't have one kicking around). All these "it's just another $50-$100" items add up pretty quick. But if a $80 investment means potentially getting 40% more output from a $2500 battery, I suppose that's money well spent... Or possibly wait weeks for an active balancing BMS to earn its keep.
 
Just in case people have not had benefit of viewing Steve at Overkill's battery building manual...

Appendix C: About Cell Balancing
In Section Section 2.3 , we asserted that each battery cell must be top-balanced separately, before assembling
the battery pack.
Here, we will prove why.
Q: But Steve, doesn’t the BMS have a built-in balancer?
A: Yes, the BMS has a built-in balancing function. HOWEVER no, it is not capable of doing an initial balance
on new cells.
The balancer works by connecting a tiny bleed resistor (see Figure C.1 below) to the cells with the highest
voltage, and the excess energy in those cells turns into waste heat. This is a slow process. The intention is that
the BMS can maintain the balance on the cells as they slowly drift over their lifetime.

A batch of new cells needs to be top-balanced before they can be expected to charge properly as a battery
pack.
Q: Why?
A: Because of the nature of the LiFePO4 voltage curve. At the top end of a charge cycle, the cell voltage spikes
quickly, and charging must be stopped to prevent damage to the cells. If one cell is at a higher state of charge,
(in terms of amp-hours or coulombs), even by a small amount, it will spike while the other cells are still in the
"bulk" phase of their charge cycle (See Figure C.1 below). On the linked graph, the red line is the highest
cell, which triggers a "cell overvoltage" alarm before the pink/green cells get to a full charge. The BMS must
then disconnect to protect the high cell, and the battery pack will be at a lower voltage than expected. You
want all the cells to spike up at the same time, and the only way this can happen is for them to be well
balanced.

Q: OK, so how would one go about top-balancing their cells?
A: There are several ways to manually balance cells, depending on what equipment you have access to:
The best way in my opinion, is to use a regulated power supply to charge the cells to 3.65 volts each. The cells
would be connected in parallel as a single cell and charged together (without the BMS), then re-assembled
into the series-connected pack with the BMS. Will Prowse demonstrates in this video:
Cheapest way: Connect a load to the high cell in your pack to quickly bleed off the excess energy. I tried this
method using a random car light bulb with some alligator clips on the leads. (see Figure C.3 below) You need
to watch the cell voltages closely because it’s easy to go too far.

What does NOT work is the old recommendation of connecting your new cells in parallel and letting them
passively equalize for hours or days. This does not work because of the flat charge curve. They are at almost
the same voltage even if they are far apart in state-of-charge. Basically the cells don't know that they aren't
balanced unless you can push them into the very top end of the charge cycle.
Q: What about cell matching?
A: Cells have a certain internal resistance. Grade-A cells are tested at the factory to confirm that their internal
resistance is acceptable, usually <1 milliohm. If your battery pack is made of grade-B cells or cells of different
ages or if they have been damaged before, then they are not matched. Mismatched cells will quickly become
unbalanced when the pack is cycled. This is one reason why you should pay for good grade-A cells.
I bought 4 of the very cheapest low grade garbage cells from Aliexpress (See Figure C.4 below), just for
experimenting. I balanced them several times, but after even 1 cycle of charging and discharging, they are way
out of balance. This is because they are not matched at all. Some cells have a high internal resistance, so they
get hotter than the better cells, and this puts them at a lower state of charge. If you are trying to use crappy
cells like this, you will only be able to charge them up to ~80% to avoid constant cell over-voltages. This might
be good for a big cheap solar storage bank, but it can cause big problems for a pack that you cycle daily, or
use with large loads.

Q: I’m still not convinced.
A: Here’s a real-world scenario that happened. A vendor in China that won’t be named shipped four 280Ah
LiFePO4 cells to a customer in Florida. This vendor was nice enough to email a video of the battery voltages
being measured before they were shipped. Here were the voltages, screen-captured :
● Cell 1: 3.3298V
● Cell 2: 3.2999V
● Cell 3: 3.3281V
● Cell 4: 3.3269V
Measuring Cells Like This Doesn’t Mean Much
From this info, we can work out that the cell delta is 29.9 millivolts. No need to top-balance these cells, right?
They’re almost identical, right? The customer figured as much, because he didn’t top-balance them. He was
in a hurry. Here was the output from the BMS iPhone app during the initial bring-up of the pack, after less
than 1/2 hour of charging::
Figure C.6: The effects of a badly-balanced cell
Steve’s advice to the customer, thinking that these might be crappy cells, was to top-balance the batteries.
The customer did so, and reported that three of the cells took approximately 7.5Ah, but cell #2 charged for
over a day, and when it was finished took a total of around 140 Ah. With that, we can work out a timeline of
what happened:
1. The supplier from China shipped three of the batteries at 90% charge, and one battery at 50% charge.
This should never happen. But it happened.
2. The supplier’s reassuring video of the cell voltages didn’t mean anything. Recall that LiFePO4 battery
discharge curves are extremely flat. This means that the capacity can vary wildly, but the voltage
won’t change much. We can actually see in the measurements from the vendor that the delta was 30
millivolts. Consulting the discharge curve for the battery above, a 30 millivolt delta (which we saw in
cell #2) can mean as much as a 40% state of charge difference.
3. During the battery pack bring-up, the cell overvoltage protection kicked in on cell #1, and cut off the
charging current. This happened because the cells were not balanced.
4. Steve recommended a top-balance, which was done, taking over a day at a charge rate of 10 amps.
After the pack was reassembled, the cell delta was around two millivolts (much better). The battery
successfully discharged down to its cutoff limit, and charged back up to 100% with no issue.
This, dear reader, is why you top balance. Don’t trust voltages when working with LiFePO4 batteries. When
it comes to vendors, the rule is: Trust, but verify . Verify by top-balancing.
Figure C.7: LiFePO4 battery discharge curves are extremely flat


If anyone needs or wants the figures and illustrations just ask and I'll capture and post them.
You can also download the whole manual from Overkill Solar.

The moral of the story is, TOP BALANCE YOUR CELLS BEFORE ASSEMBLING THEM INTO A BATTERY.

Or you could just get a BMS that tapers charge current to match balancing capacity when one cell reaches balancing voltage.

The only disadvantage of not top balancing is loss of capacity. With a decent BMS you will gain 1% capacity/day. If your cells have a 30% delta in SOC, that is a month to full. If you want it faster, without dismantling the pack you can individually charge the cell(s) that are preventing you getting your desired capacity.

The real moral of this story is it is false economy to buy a cheap BMS. This story will unfold on this forum in the next few years.
 
Or you could just get a BMS that tapers charge current to match balancing capacity when one cell reaches balancing voltage.

Well, BMS itself can't to that. It can only measure current & voltage, and request current & voltage.
This would require charge controller to communicate with BMS and perform that function.

Otherwise, charge controller set to a fixed voltage above knee of the curve and below maximum. So long as cells aren't too far apart, this would slow charging and allow balancing to occur.
 
I am going to charge the 4s battery to a maximum of 14.08V to maximize cycle life. Is it worth making 3.52v or 3.6v as the top balance?

What about BMS's overcharge setting, does it matter it is 14.08v or 14.60v?
 
What about BMS's overcharge setting, does it matter it is 14.08v or 14.60v?
The primary BMS overcharge setting is at the cell level. For that, 3.65V is the standard safety number.
Abruptly cutting off charging at 14.08V (3.52Vpc) is too low for a BMS.

And most importantly, you should control your charging with your charge controller, which is why its called a charge controller.
 
Charging comes through the victron dc/dc converter where the set 14.08v.

But what about that top balance does it really matter if it's made of 3.52v or 3.6v?
 
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