V2H status?

[curiouscarbon]

most residential use of EV battery will amount to 0.5C or less discharge / charge, a very gentle task.

really excited for EV battery to be able to serve residential needs.

5000 watts is only like 6 horsepower, and most EV have more than 75 hp ?

 

[fafrd]

most residential use of EV battery will amount to 0.5C or less discharge / charge, a very gentle task.

really excited for EV battery to be able to serve residential needs.

5000 watts is only like 6 horsepower, and most EV have more than 75 hp ?

Yeah, when you are staring at the choice of either purchasing a 20kWh battery for $20,000 dollars or an EV with a 60-80kWh battery for $40,000 dollars, it’s pretty much of a no-brainer.

We just need to wait for bidirectional EV charger technology and hybrid inverter technology to catch up.

Hybrid sees more solar energy coming in than can be consumers during the day and tells bidirectional EV charger to soak up as much of the excess energy as it can.

If/when EV is full, remaining excess solar power either gets exported or throttled-back (in the case of zero-export).

Once solar power drops below loads and throughout the night, hybrid sees load consumption that needs to be offset by EV rather than consuming from grid and tells bidirectional EV charger how much EV energy to convert to AC power in order to offset consumption.

I’m liking the AC-coupled 2-box architecture much more than the idea of an all-in-one (single box).

The only little wrinkle they may have to iron out is going full split-phase on the EV charger output though it seems like a hybrid that can convert 240V single-phase power to a zero-export 120V split-phase should be feasible.

And of course, those of us already on export agreements and now being forced to minimize consumption and export have no issue exporting on one 120V l leg and importing on the other (since the utility only measures and charges for not 240VAC export/import).

 

[Ampster]

Yeah, when you are staring at the choice of either purchasing a 20kWh battery for $20,000 dollars or an EV with a 60-80kWh battery for $40,000 dollars, it’s pretty much of a no-brainer.

My conclusion is different because I have a 42 kWh pack for my home that cost under $5,000 and two EVs that cost significantly more. It all depends on where you are standing.

 

[fafrd]

My conclusion is different because I have a 42 kWh pack for my home that cost under $5,000 and two EVs that cost significantly more. It all depends on where you are standing.

Understand. I was speaking from the perspective of non-DIYers who just want to go plug-and-play.

Cost trends for both off-the-shelf batteries and EVs are clear, and while the cost of both dropping, the cost of cells is not.

So it’s only a matter of time before building a DIY battery from cells will be for hobbyists only (as I believe I stated in a dedicated thread I started on that subject early this year).

I’ve built a 14.8kWh 24V battery for $1400 in cells + $100 for BMS + whatever you want to throw in for wiring and clamping fixture, so I know what you mean.

My issue is that as I look at scaling up to whole-day storage levels of 20kWh, the whole market seems geared toward high-voltage DC and attempting a solution at 24V or even 48V seems like trying to swim upstream.

So yeah, if you’ve already licked yourself in with EVs and a whole-day home storage battery, no need to change.

But if you’re looking at new purchases, getting an EV that supports true bi-directional charging through CCS such as the Volkswagen ID.4 along with a bi-directional-charger / hybrid inverter duo that can handle the task of absorbing excess production during the day and using that stored energy to offset consumption overnight looks like a much aside solution that trying to build your own HV powerwall or trying t cobble together a LV solution…

What voltage is your 42kWh battery and what hybrid inverter are you using to manage it?

 

[fafrd]

I spoke with Emporia.

Their Energy Monitor and smart EV charger are available today.

On the consumption side, this allows you to avoid export by controlling the smart EV charger to only charge when their is excess solar power being generated that would otherwise export to the grid.

The bidirectional EV charger will no be available before 2024 and the major reason for that is that they are awaiting EVs supporting bi-directional charging through CCS to be available.

According to them, the only EV announced to support bi-directional charging through CCS is the Volkswagen ID.4: https://insideevs.com/news/568191/vw-id4-plugcharge-bidirectional-charging/amp/

Until we’ve got both the EVs supporting V2H as well as bidirectional chargers such as the one being developed by Emporia, we can’t be certain whether V2X can be used to offset consumption (while grid-tied) or only for backup power use (off-grid).

Statements like this don’t help clear up that question at all:

‘The update will arrive in Vehicle to Home (V2H) form, which means ID.4 owners will be able to power their appliances from the car or the entire house in case of a blackout.’

On the other hand, the EV itself has no way of knowing what the bidirectional charger is going with the DC power it exports and when the Volkswagen exec makes statements such as this, it leaves me optimistic that bidirectional chargers such as the one being developed by Emporia will be capable of offsetting grid consumption using ID.4 battery energy:

“Bidirectional charging will be available this year for all ID. Models with 77 kWh battery, also via OTA update. In the beginning we will only offer Vehicle-to-home. This means you can run your dishwasher with electricity from abroad."

‘Abroad’ was likely a typo/confusion meant to refer to ‘onboard’ (the ID.4) but unless he meant you can run your dishwasher during a blackout, that sure sounds like load offsetting while on-grid…

I spoke with Emporia again and here are some notes on what I was told;

Specs/functionality of their bidirectional charger should be finalized by the end of Q1’23.

Charge functionality and specs will be unchanged from what their Smart Charger delivers today:

-minimum charge current of 1000W

-charge current maintained at 200W above export in ‘zero export’ mode

-so charging won’t start until export reaches ~800W

-real-time adjustments (every second or every few seconds) to ramp-uo and down charge current to follow excess PV production

-everything is a ‘black-box’ where users select operating mode such as ‘zero- export’ using a high-level app and the details of how that gets achieved through control of the charger is proprietary

-user data is sent trough the cloud where it is used to determine control configuration

-user data is not sold or provided to any 3rd parties but user data is proprietary and not accessible by users (apparently this is the biggest complaint they get).

Architecturally, I think theirs is the best solution I’ve seen for use of bidirectional charging to minimize import and export.

The fact that it’s a black box and you are limited to the configuration and settings they have predefined is not ideal (though understandable).

An open-source solution based on the same concept might be preferable, but I fear it’ll take much longer to reach market and will certainly involve much more screwing around.

I’ve already ‘tricked’ my GTIL inverters to ‘unsee’ my grid-tied solar export by splicing together CT sensors and since the only way to control the Emporia solution is through their monitor’s CT-sensor inputs, I’m thinking that’s at least one direction to go here (let their energy monitor ‘see’ 200W of consumption while my GTILS are actually offsetting all but 10-20W of that using battery energy).

Next milestone will be when VW actually releases support for bidirectional charging on the ID.4 and after that, we’ll just need to await bidirectional charger support including that of Emporia to capitalize on that.

 

[Ampster]

My issue is that as I look at scaling up to whole-day storage levels of 20kWh, the whole market seems geared toward high-voltage DC and attempting a solution at 24V or even 48V seems like trying to swim upstream.

I know the Tesla Powerwall and one of the LG Chem offerings are high voltage. I do see more UL listed batteries at 48 volts so I don't see the same trend as you..SimpliPhi, SOK, EG4 are just a few. What high voltage batteries are you seeing?

So it’s only a matter of time before building a DIY battery from cells will be for hobbyists only

I think DIYers and hobbyists are pretty much the same thing, so we are already there. How do you distinguish DIYers and hobbyists? I don't know anybody who professionally installs batteries that do it from cells. I can think of a half a dozen professional installers I have talked to or seen YT videos promoting their services like Engineer 775. They either do Powerwalls or one of the battery systems like LGChem, BYD, Simpliphi, Generac or the few others out there. No question DIYers are also doing some of those systems too but based on the content here, the majority are doing DIY packs using cells.

 

[fafrd]

I know the Tesla Powerwall and one of the LG Chem offerings are high voltage. I do see more UL listed batteries at 48 volts so I don't see the same trend as you..SimpliPhi, SOK, EG4 are just a few. What high voltage batteries are you seeing?

Just saw in another thread that you own an Emporia Energy Monitor. Interested to learn more from your experience (and just sent you a PM to that effect).

On battteries, 48V is considered LV.

The Powerwall is certainly HV and I believe other vendors including LG Chem have off-the-shelf HV battery offerings, but they are not cheap (nowhere near DIY battery prices).

By HV, we are generally speaking about batteries that are around 400VDC. Most every HV inverter spec I’ve seen has a minimum voltage of 200V if not 250V.

The dcbel unit is a good example. It has a battery voltage range of 240-500V: https://www.dcbel.energy/r16-specs

The Huayu AC-coupled battery chargers are another product I’ve been keeping my eye on. Their HV models support a battery voltage range of 150-550VDC: https://www.huayu-energy.com/cpxq?product_id=67

While their ‘LV’ products support a battery range of 40-60VDC:https://www.huayu-energy.com/cpxq?product_id=69

These 400V products are designed to support EV -class batteries and cobbling together your own 400V battery seems out of reach of today’s budget BMS technology.

Promoted by this exchange, I just checked Renvu’s site and I see they now offer a 400VDC battery from Growatt: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VYetn0XZNAth-XOLUoGii9dKcd-CHJv_/preview


$7000 for 9.9kWh, so that’s a solid discount off of what Tesla and LG Chem are charging..,

And that means my backup solution based on a 20kWh HV battery + Huayu AC inverter is getting more affordable .

 

[Ampster]

Okay, now I understand, you are talking about DC devices that support EV batteries, not a trend toward the typical hybrid inverter moving toward a higher nominal voltage above 48 volts. Those Growatt offerings are probably for a market other that the US where UL listing has become a NEC requirement and I do not see UL relaxing that restriction or increasing the voltage limit. Remember the Tesla Powerwall at $15,000 for a 13 kWh battery also includes an inverter that can AC couple with any GT inverter and includes a automatic transfer switch. The entire system is UL listed. Are any of the Growatt devices UL listed?

 

[fafrd]

Okay, now I understand, you are talking about DC devices that support EV batteries, not a trend toward the typical hybrid inverter moving toward a higher nominal voltage above 48 volts. Those Growatt offerings are probably for a market other that the US where UL listing has become a NEC requirement and I do not see UL relaxing that restriction or increasing the voltage limit. Remember the Tesla Powerwall at $15,000 for a 13 kWh battery also includes an inverter that can AC couple with any GT inverter and includes a automatic transfer switch. The entire system is UL listed. Are any of the Growatt devices UL listed?

Yes, they are (and I suspect their HV batteries are as well). Renvu only sells UL listed and CA-certified equipment…

 

[Ampster]

Yes, they are (and I suspect their HV batteries are as well). Renvu only sells UL listed and CA-certified equipment…

Then that very well may be the trend if UL listing becomes the name of the game for batteries. A UL listing may be the only way to qualify under NEC 2020.
EDIT:
I just checked the CEC website and Growatt inverters. are not listed there. Perhaps you should fact check before posting something like that on a public forum if you have not verified the facts. So much for Renvu selling only CEC approved equipment. I have bought lots of stuff from Renvu that was not "UL listed and CA certified".

 

[fafrd]

Then that very well may be the trend if UL listing becomes the name of the game for batteries. A UL listing may be the only way to qualify under NEC 2020.
EDIT:
I just checked the CEC website and Growatt inverters. are not listed there. Perhaps you should fact check before posting something like that on a public forum if you have not verified the facts. So much for Renvu selling only CEC approved equipment. I have bought lots of stuff from Renvu that was not "UL listed and CA certified".

Interesting.

Growatt was all over the CEC list when I last checked this Spring but they are completely gone now (while Goodwe is all over the place).

So Growatt must be blacklisted and I suspect it may have something to do with the Autotransformer hack to convert their 230V single-phase into a 120V split-phase (of Signature Solar fame).

Don’t blame Renvu - they probably spent months setting up supply agreements and getting inventory established from the moment Growatt first got approved earlier this year. No idea when the blacklist dropped but Renvu may not even know (as didn’t I).

It should be a warning to any attracted to cheap Chinese equipment that makes it into the CEC list - mistakes happen and if they approve equipment based on vendors mistaken/false assertions, they can drop that vendor off of the list the moment a misrepresentation and/or oversight is brought to light…

I remember being surprised to see Growatt on the list this Spring knowing all the debate that was going on on this Forum as fas as whether the split-phase architecture being promoted by they and Signature Solar was up to snuff or not…

I’m going to start tracking those 400V Growatt batteries on Renvu - I suspect they’ll end up needing to give them away .

 

[fafrd]

Interesting.

Growatt was all over the CEC list when I last checked this Spring but they are completely gone now (while Goodwe is all over the place).

So Growatt must be blacklisted and I suspect it may have something to do with the Autotransformer hack to convert their 230V single-phase into a 120V split-phase (of Signature Solar fame).

Don’t blame Renvu - they probably spent months setting up supply agreements and getting inventory established from the moment Growatt first got approved earlier this year. No idea when the blacklist dropped but Renvu may not even know (as didn’t I).

It should be a warning to any attracted to cheap Chinese equipment that makes it into the CEC list - mistakes happen and if they approve equipment based on vendors mistaken/false assertions, they can drop that vendor off of the list the moment a misrepresentation and/or oversight is brought to light…

I remember being surprised to see Growatt on the list this Spring knowing all the debate that was going on on this Forum as fas as whether the split-phase architecture being promoted by they and Signature Solar was up to snuff or not…

I’m going to start tracking those 400V Growatt batteries on Renvu - I suspect they’ll end up needing to give them away .

Wanted to correct this misstatement I made.

The CEC list looks like it may have been reorganized since I last checked it in the spring but regardless, when I quickly searched for ‘Growatt’ prior to this mistaken post, nothing came up.

By taking a bit more time scanning all vendors, I found:

‘Shenzhen Growatt New Energy Technology Co., Ltd’

There are 103 approved Growatt inverters (at least as many as we’re on the list last Spring).

 

[Ampster]

Good to know. Thanks for the update.

 

[fafrd]

Good read about Emporium and their plans for bidirectional charging: https://chargedevs.com/features/emp...res-for-the-bidirectional-ev-charging-future/

 

[Ampster]

I hope he can deliver on the promise of a reasonably priced bidirectional interface. I probably won't be able to use one because I do not see Tesla allowing that and I am already invested in a stationary pack that may live longer than me. I do love my Energy Monitor and the price point it came in at.

 

[fafrd]

I hope he can deliver on the promise of a reasonably priced bidirectional interface. I probably won't be able to use one because I do not see Tesla allowing that and I am already invested in a stationary pack that may live longer than me. I do love my Energy Monitor and the price point it came in at.

Yeah, Tesla is kind of the Apple of EVs (Their Way or the Highway), so who knows if we’ll ever see open-standards bidirectional chargers for Tesla EVs?

I like what Emporia is doing and think it was brilliant strategy to focus on Energy Monitoring first. No matter how many boxes you may have in your system, a good energy monitor is positioned to be the best ‘brain’ for the overall system.

I’m likely to be getting an Emporia Energy Monitor as soon as the design of their bidirectional charger is frozen and I can be certain the existing Energy Monitor supports all of the capability of their bidirectional charger.

My only concern with the Empiria approach is that it is black box (similar to Tesla in some ways). You can choose among the functions they have established but cannot deliver any functionality that goes beyond that.

Hopefully it’s all great kit and does everything you’d like it to do, but to my mind, the ‘right’ solution architecture for Solar + EV will involve an Energy Monitor / Brain, a bidirectional EV charger, and a Hybrid Inverter including a small but separate House Battery.

There are already some AIO bidirectional charger concepts including all of that capability in a single box (attractive if you are making a new install but less attractive for retrofitting a legacy PV system).

So my concern with Emporia’s solution is to understand what flexibility it will offer to work alongside a central Hybrid Imverter with its own Modestly-sized House Battery.

Sounds like you’ve already invested in a House Battery big enough to meet all your needs, so all this V2X stuff is less likely to be necessary for you.

I’m barely getting by on NEM1 and since it’s clear the CPUC and my utility plan on changing the rules going forward, I’m trying to plan for a bidirectional-EV-based home energy storage solution to capture and consume most all of my excess solar production for when the time comes.

Exciting times .

 

[fafrd]

The Hyundai Ioniq 5 may (or may not) already support bidirectional charging: https://thedriven.io/2022/04/25/ion...world-first-bi-directional-energy-system/amp/

At l east with proprietary idirecrional chargers similar to how Ford came out with the Ford F-150 Lightening.

The big unknown is whether any customization was needed on the Ioniq 5 was required or not.

Any hardware customization would be somewhat of a showstopper but SW/FW customization would probably mean that the capability could be released on stock Ioniq 5s through a SW/FW update…

 

[nodoze]

Thanks @fafrd for all the informative posts & please let us know if you see their Energy Storage System (ESS) &/or bi-directional charger (V2X) actually become available.

I am very interested & am planning on starting a home build later this year & an ideal setup for me would be an ESS with a V2X and something like the Lighting as I would love to be able to tap that large battery in a seamless manner in an emergency...

If you do get the "EMPORIA VUE WHOLE HOME ENERGY MONITOR" please report back after you get it in place and have data. My main question is whether you have direct access to the data or whether it is a closed "black box" with no external interface. Currently for energy monitoring I already have the Open Source "IoTaWatt" system and am pretty happy with it as I have full access to the data and don't need to upload it anywhere nor do I need have an internet connection to use it:

IoTaWatt™ Open WiFi Electric Power Monitor

Electric Power Monitor. Residential and Commercial. Single, split and three-phase. Any voltage. Local data storage and analysis and also upload to your cloud service. Economical. Ships worldwide, in use in dozens of countries on four continents.

www.iotawatt.com

 

[Ampster]

If you do get the "EMPORIA VUE WHOLE HOME ENERGY MONITOR" please report back after you get it in place and have data. My main question is whether you have direct access to the data or whether it is a closed "black box" with no external interface.

I have had an Emporia Energy monitor and have not found a way to interface with the data other than export. . It is all accessible through a web interface. There is an ability to export historical data via a CSV file but that is the extent of it as far as I know. There is a user forum where you might find a more definitive answer.

 

[nodoze]

I have had an Emporia Energy monitor and have not found a way to export data. It is all accessible through a web interace. There is an ability to export historical data via a CSV file but that is the extent of it as far as I know. There is a usder forum where you might find a more definitive answer.

Thanks for the info. Can you tell whether it is a locally hosted web interface on the Emporia Energy Monitor itself or do you have to connect to an externally "cloud" hosted Emporia web interface to get the CSV file?

 

[Ampster]

...... Can you tell whether it is a locally hosted web interface on the Emporia Energy Monitor itself or do you have to connect to an externally "cloud" hosted Emporia web interface to get the CSV file?

It is an external interface using a url of web.emporiaenergy.com

 

[fafrd]

I have had an Emporia Energy monitor and have not found a way to interface with the data other than export. . It is all accessible through a web interface. There is an ability to export historical data via a CSV file but that is the extent of it as far as I know. There is a user forum where you might find a more definitive answer.

Emporia seems to be largely a black-box in terms of functionality / capability (pre-canned functionality, no ability to customize).

They told me they do not allow us timers to do any customization of functionality other than select amount the settings and parameters they have established.

I was told a WiFi connection to the web was a requirement to use their products but that data was never sold to 3rd parties.

I did not ask about data download but it makes sense that they’d support that.

When I raised privacy concerns I was told they have not had any real issue with privacy concerns but that many customers complain about having their hands tied and having no way to add scripts / code to add functionality…

 

[fafrd]

Thanks @fafrd for all the informative posts & please let us know if you see their Energy Storage System (ESS) &/or bi-directional charger (V2X) actually become available.

I am very interested & am planning on starting a home build later this year & an ideal setup for me would be an ESS with a V2X and something like the Lighting as I would love to be able to tap that large battery in a seamless manner in an emergency...

The Ford F-150 Lightening is the only EV supporting bidirectional charging and V2H through CCS ports/plugs today, but they do so only through their proprietary bidirectional charger (designed by Siemens) and based on a proprietary protocol (developed and released before publication of the new standard).

So if you are interested in a Ford-150 Lightening anyway, I think you are good to go.

You’ll be able to charge other EVa through CCS but only unidirectional”y (no V2H).

If you get another WV supporting bidirectional charging and V2H, you’ll probably need to invest in a new charger to enable that capability.

But for only using your Ford F-150 Lightening for V2H in your own home, you’ll have it as good as it gets…

If you do get the "EMPORIA VUE WHOLE HOME ENERGY MONITOR" please report back after you get it in place and have data. My main question is whether you have direct access to the data or whether it is a closed "black box" with no external interface. Currently for energy monitoring I already have the Open Source "IoTaWatt" system and am pretty happy with it as I have full access to the data and don't need to upload it anywhere nor do I need have an internet connection to use it:

IoTaWatt™ Open WiFi Electric Power Monitor

Electric Power Monitor. Residential and Commercial. Single, split and three-phase. Any voltage. Local data storage and analysis and also upload to your cloud service. Economical. Ships worldwide, in use in dozens of countries on four continents.

www.iotawatt.com

You certainly do need connection to WiFi and internet to use the Emporia…

But in fairness, it is much more than just data collection. If it is able to control other devices such as EV chargers and possibly hybrid inverters through algorithms available in the cloud, it would be more expensive and less flexible to integrate that capability locally for use off-line…

 

[nodoze]

The Ford F-150 Lightening is the only EV supporting bidirectional charging and V2H through CCS ports/plugs today, but they do so only through their proprietary bidirectional charger (designed by Siemens) and based on a proprietary protocol (developed and released before publication of the new standard).

So if you are interested in a Ford-150 Lightening anyway, I think you are good to go.

You’ll be able to charge other EVa through CCS but only unidirectional”y (no V2H).

If you get another WV supporting bidirectional charging and V2H, you’ll probably need to invest in a new charger to enable that capability.

But for only using your Ford F-150 Lightening for V2H in your own home, you’ll have it as good as it gets…

You certainly do need connection to WiFi and internet to use the Emporia…

But in fairness, it is much more than just data collection. If it is able to control other devices such as EV chargers and possibly hybrid inverters through algorithms available in the cloud, it would be more expensive and less flexible to integrate that capability locally for use off-line…

Thanks again for all the good info. Hopefully Emporium ends up providing a way that the system can be monitored/maintained in a true internet down or even worse full grid down situation. I really like that https://www.iotawatt.com/ is fully Open Source so the community can verify no spyware/etc and that it does not need any internet or external connection. There is no reason why the community couldn't write algorithms to integrate via APIs to chargers/etc. Your other comments are valid in that, while anything is possible, it could require a bunch of tinkering with "duck-tape & bailing wire" to get er done and many folk are not up for that... There are those that will as can be seen in this thread:

Sol-Ark - Inverter Monitoring

In short real-time monitoring is possible with the Sol-Ark! I decided to post a dedicated thread on this topic given the ongoing interest and research that has been done by some members. I am pointing folks to the resources that I used for the primary setup but will highlight the Sol-Ark...

diysolarforum.com

In the end if they don't release their products in time (nor anyone else releases an ESS with V2X) my current plan is to move the IoTaWatts to the new home & go with SolArk & some server rack batteries. For now our only current plug in vehicle likely will never support bi-directional charging so we will just have a regular charger for it & I will likely see if I can find a manual way in an emergency to convert electricity out in a manner that will not adversely affect the vehicle. If they figure out a way to do bi-directional to an external source (like the SolArk) from a Lighting then I may go with something like that.

 

[curiouscarbon]

thanks for the info.

any option that requires a connection to internet is a complete non starter, personally.

half the entire exercise is about resiliency. internet goes out more than power

appreciate the info, thanks!