V2H status?

[RayofSunshine]

I have been searching for a while, wondering why string/hybrid inverters (any inverter that DC couples PV panels into MPPTs) don’t offer the capability of direct DC charging of EVs. Heck, they can send DC current to integrated (or closely coupled, or even non-closely coupled) residential battery ESSs; be they low voltage (~48V) or high voltage (I’ve seen up to 600V). And EVs can accept “DC fast charging”. I thought maybe there was some limitation in the EV charging schema that I was missing.

Then a few months ago I found the dcbel 16 that was mentioned earlier in this thread (I didn’t find this thread until a few days ago). “Huh”, says I, “I guess it is possible”. But this solution requires that you use their inverter. I was hoping to find a solution where I could add an EV charger to an inverter that I had in mind (say, something like the Sol-Ark 12K or 15K, or maybe an Outback).

Then I discovered a company called Enteligent. they have some pretty cool DC optimizer/RSD devices that are either available now or are imminent, but they also have just what I described above and more: an EV charger that connects to an inverter, which takes DC current from your PV panels and sends it to their EV charger, which sends it to your EV (without first inverting it to AC). It “can also be powered simultaneously by the AC grid” and battery ESS so that it “is up to three times faster than AC Level 2 EV chargers and delivers at a fraction of the cost of dedicated DC chargers”. It is also bidirectional, so you can use your (appropriately equipped) EV as a battery ESS. It is “Coming Fall 2022”. They are working with several inverter manufacturers (including Sol-Ark). I spoke with Ed Rosenberry. Nice guy. Very helpful. This piece of kit looks really promising. You should check them out.

 

[watchdoc]

Keep in mind to use V2H technology you MUST have a vehicle with DC fast charging. (Not the typical AC charging via a J1772) If your vehicle doesn't have DC fast charging capability you cannot power your home from the main battery. Currently you need a Chadmo or CCS fast charging connector. -Bill

F150 Powerboost will power a home just fine….. just sayin

 

[fafrd]

I have been searching for a while, wondering why string/hybrid inverters (any inverter that DC couples PV panels into MPPTs) don’t offer the capability of direct DC charging of EVs. Heck, they can send DC current to integrated (or closely coupled, or even non-closely coupled) residential battery ESSs; be they low voltage (~48V) or high voltage (I’ve seen up to 600V). And EVs can accept “DC fast charging”. I thought maybe there was some limitation in the EV charging schema that I was missing.

Then a few months ago I found the dcbel 16 that was mentioned earlier in this thread (I didn’t find this thread until a few days ago). “Huh”, says I, “I guess it is possible”. But this solution requires that you use their inverter. I was hoping to find a solution where I could add an EV charger to an inverter that I had in mind (say, something like the Sol-Ark 12K or 15K, or maybe an Outback).

Then I discovered a company called Enteligent. they have some pretty cool DC optimizer/RSD devices that are either available now or are imminent, but they also have just what I described above and more: an EV charger that connects to an inverter, which takes DC current from your PV panels and sends it to their EV charger, which sends it to your EV (without first inverting it to AC). It “can also be powered simultaneously by the AC grid” and battery ESS so that it “is up to three times faster than AC Level 2 EV chargers and delivers at a fraction of the cost of dedicated DC chargers”. It is also bidirectional, so you can use your (appropriately equipped) EV as a battery ESS. It is “Coming Fall 2022”. They are working with several inverter manufacturers (including Sol-Ark). I spoke with Ed Rosenberry. Nice guy. Very helpful. This piece of kit looks really promising. You should check them out.

Thanks for the link. Here’s the ‘datasheet’: https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/ce...directional_EV_Charger_.pdf?ver=1658843703410

It seems to be based on a bi-directional 400VDC to/from the EV.

PV range is 250 to 450VDC, so that implies that it integrated a DC-DC step-up converter.

The storage batteries are 100 to 600VDC so that suggests that the batteries are on a separate DC input/output from the charger (and also stepped up or down as needed).

The diagram is confusing because it suggests that the DC battery and DC PV output are shorted to a single DC input / output from the charger.

It’s a pity they don’t support more consumer-friendly battery options such as 48V but other than that, it is an interesting architecture that allows the DC-side to be completely decoupled from the AC-side (use any inverter you want).

 

[fafrd]

I just ran into this: https://uploads-ssl.webflow.com/5ff...2de84a391b2e2_V2X Charger Technical Specs.pdf

It claims to support ‘V2X’ including V2H with up to 11.5kW of 240VAC power.

It also states: ‘Pair with the Emporia Vue to automate your energy use and storage to meet your needs, comfort, and budget.’

So the key question will be how well and easily the Emporia Vue allows load consumption to be offset… (at least for the use-case I am interested in).

The advantage of an AC-coupled bidirectional charging solution is that the high-voltage DC to/from the EV is seperate from the PV array.

Going from PVDC to 240VAC to EVDC involves some solar efficiency but allows the PV array to be designed independently of the high-voltage requirements of either the EV or the bidirectional charger.

I’ve got a small 1S3P PV array that I could use to charge an EV with an AC-coupled bidirectional charger such as this but would have to enlarge to a 7S1P string to deliver the 250VDC needed by the Enteligenr DC-coupled bidirectional charger.

And because my array has to deal with some pretty severe shading issues throughout the morning (shifting shadow from a tree), I’d probably need to up the string to at least 9S or accept total loss of power generation until the shading has past (meaning I’ll lose close to ~50% of the power available from a 1SxP string…

So at least go my priorities, it’s the bidirectional charging capability as well as the ability to deliver AC-power throttled to offset home consumption (while grid-tied) that is the key functionality I’m waiting for.

I don’t mind an AC-coupled All-In-One bidirectional charger including an inverter as long as it can easily be controlled for zero-export.

 

[nodoze]

I just ran into this: https://uploads-ssl.webflow.com/5fff2b7694451e66ba2f5a3d/62391e1af2e2de84a391b2e2_V2X Charger Technical Specs.pdf

It claims to support ‘V2X’ including V2H with up to 11.5kW of 240VAC power.

...[Lots of good stuff]...

I don’t mind an AC-coupled All-In-One bidirectional charger including an inverter as long as it can easily be controlled for zero-export.

I am pretty sure awhile back I saw both this V2X potential offering & also their POTENTIAL Energy Storage System (ESS) offering:

Storage - Emporia: Revolutionizing Home Energy

Empower your home with Emporia's Home Battery Storage solutions. Experience resilience, savings, and independence from the grid with the Emporia PowerStation.

www.emporiaenergy.com

The problem with both of the above is those are POTENTIAL offerings... Like pretty much everything else I have seen lots of good ideas and supposedly offerings in the mix but at most they are trials in select areas and certainly not available at retail...

I do think their vision is in the right direction and I would love to see some actual offerings at realistic prices. I already invested in some www.iotawatt.com devices but they are/will not be automatically integrated with any solution like Solark or what not and Emporia Energy may have a fully holistic solution one day (and hopefully at reasonable prices)...

If you do see an actual offering on a V2X (especially if integrated with an ESS) from them (or anyone else) please report back to this thread.

 

[fafrd]

I am pretty sure awhile back I saw both this V2X potential offering & also their POTENTIAL Energy Storage System (ESS) offering:

Storage - Emporia: Revolutionizing Home Energy

Empower your home with Emporia's Home Battery Storage solutions. Experience resilience, savings, and independence from the grid with the Emporia PowerStation.

www.emporiaenergy.com

The problem with both of the above is those are POTENTIAL offerings... Like pretty much everything else I have seen lots of good ideas and supposedly offerings in the mix but at most they are trials in select areas and certainly not available at retail...

I do think their vision is in the right direction and I would love to see some actual offerings at realistic prices. I already invested in some www.iotawatt.com devices but they are/will not be automatically integrated with any solution like Solark or what not and Emporia Energy may have a fully holistic solution one day (and hopefully at reasonable prices)...

If you do see an actual offering on a V2X (especially if integrated with an ESS) from them (or anyone else) please report back to this thread.

Will do.

I’m not in a huge rush to actually purchase anything. I’ve got a 1kW array of setting consumption today using a 24V 14kWh LiFePO4 4 using a pair of 1kW GTILs and the whole system has worked better than I had hoped for over a year now.

And I Al so don’t have an EV yet (probably by 2024 or 2025).

My whole thing is to try to nail down a target architecture for how I want to evolve my system by the time I have an EV and some form of EV charger.

I’ve got to redo my roof next yesr or by 2024 at the latest, and that’s going to require pulling down all of the solar.

Rebuilding the solar array is the same work/cost whether it’s an identical 3P1S array or the larger array I’d need to offset the added consumption of charging an EV so I want to upgrade the array at that time and would it to be future-proofed to work with whatever longer-term SCC / Inverter / charger / All-in-One I will be moving two once the EV arrives.

So I’m just tracking all of these architectures and hoping we see some clarity on the winning approaches within the next 12-24 months.

Using V2L to power an AC charger to push energy from the EV battery will function today, but god is it inefficient!

I’m hoping we see a bidirectional charger controlled by a smart energy meter that allows an EV to offset consumption the way my GTILs do foday.

California is driving us towards minimum export & minimum import and I’d much rather achieve that with an EV than a bigger more expensive home battery…

 

[fafrd]

I am pretty sure awhile back I saw both this V2X potential offering & also their POTENTIAL Energy Storage System (ESS) offering:

Storage - Emporia: Revolutionizing Home Energy

Empower your home with Emporia's Home Battery Storage solutions. Experience resilience, savings, and independence from the grid with the Emporia PowerStation.

www.emporiaenergy.com

The problem with both of the above is those are POTENTIAL offerings... Like pretty much everything else I have seen lots of good ideas and supposedly offerings in the mix but at most they are trials in select areas and certainly not available at retail...

I do think their vision is in the right direction and I would love to see some actual offerings at realistic prices. I already invested in some www.iotawatt.com devices but they are/will not be automatically integrated with any solution like Solark or what not and Emporia Energy may have a fully holistic solution one day (and hopefully at reasonable prices)...

If you do see an actual offering on a V2X (especially if integrated with an ESS) from them (or anyone else) please report back to this thread.

I spoke with Emporia.

Their Energy Monitor and smart EV charger are available today.

On the consumption side, this allows you to avoid export by controlling the smart EV charger to only charge when their is excess solar power being generated that would otherwise export to the grid.

The bidirectional EV charger will no be available before 2024 and the major reason for that is that they are awaiting EVs supporting bi-directional charging through CCS to be available.

According to them, the only EV announced to support bi-directional charging through CCS is the Volkswagen ID.4: https://insideevs.com/news/568191/vw-id4-plugcharge-bidirectional-charging/amp/

Until we’ve got both the EVs supporting V2H as well as bidirectional chargers such as the one being developed by Emporia, we can’t be certain whether V2X can be used to offset consumption (while grid-tied) or only for backup power use (off-grid).

Statements like this don’t help clear up that question at all:

‘The update will arrive in Vehicle to Home (V2H) form, which means ID.4 owners will be able to power their appliances from the car or the entire house in case of a blackout.’

On the other hand, the EV itself has no way of knowing what the bidirectional charger is going with the DC power it exports and when the Volkswagen exec makes statements such as this, it leaves me optimistic that bidirectional chargers such as the one being developed by Emporia will be capable of offsetting grid consumption using ID.4 battery energy:

“Bidirectional charging will be available this year for all ID. Models with 77 kWh battery, also via OTA update. In the beginning we will only offer Vehicle-to-home. This means you can run your dishwasher with electricity from abroad."

‘Abroad’ was likely a typo/confusion meant to refer to ‘onboard’ (the ID.4) but unless he meant you can run your dishwasher during a blackout, that sure sounds like load offsetting while on-grid…

 

[fafrd]

This Forum is specific to the Chevy Bolt but it focuses on which EVs present and future, support bi-directional charging through and V2H through CCS: https://www.chevybolt.org/threads/bidirectional-charging.41341/

The short answer is none today but the Volkswagen ID.4 soon (hopefully)…

 

[fafrd]

This is a good but deeper read on the ISO 15118-20 standard needed to enable bi-directional charging trough CCS: https://www.switch-ev.com/news-and-events/new-features-and-timeline-for-iso15118-20

It is supposed to be finalized and published before the end of this year, but this is the long pole in the tent as far as CCS chargers supporting but-directional charging - until this standard is at least published if not also finalized, no CCS EV charger companies are going to release bi-directional EV chargers.

A ~1 year delay between publication of the standard and first commercial products is probably the minimum to expect…

 

[fafrd]

This is a good but deeper read on the ISO 15118-20 standard needed to enable bi-directional charging trough CCS: https://www.switch-ev.com/news-and-events/new-features-and-timeline-for-iso15118-20

It is supposed to be finalized and published before the end of this year, but this is the long pole in the tent as far as CCS chargers supporting but-directional charging - until this standard is at least published if not also finalized, no CCS EV charger companies are going to release bi-directional EV chargers.

A ~1 year delay between publication of the standard and first commercial products is probably the minimum to expect…

Wallbox claims that their Sono bidirectional charger is already compliant with ISO 15118-20: https://sonomotors.com/en/bidirectional-wallbox/

Vector released a software library complaint with USI 15118-20 in mid-June: https://www.vector.com/us/en/news/n...lable-in-the-controller-software-vsecclibccs/

So it’s theoretically possible.

Now when will Volkswagen release a SW update for the id.4 to make it compliant with ISO 15118-20?

Bleeding-edge stuff (but exciting).

With an ISO-1511-20-conpluant charger and an ISO-1511-20-compliant EV such as the id.4, you’ll be able to charge your EV up using available excess PV energy during the day, then use that energy to offset load overnight.

The id.4 has a 77kWh battery option and I consume less than 15kWh between sundown and sunrise.

So cycling less than 20% of battery capacity daily should allow folks like me to avoid any grid consumption at all except in December/January and during extended periods of bad weather….

 

[curiouscarbon]

most residential use of EV battery will amount to 0.5C or less discharge / charge, a very gentle task.

really excited for EV battery to be able to serve residential needs.

5000 watts is only like 6 horsepower, and most EV have more than 75 hp ?

 

[fafrd]

most residential use of EV battery will amount to 0.5C or less discharge / charge, a very gentle task.

really excited for EV battery to be able to serve residential needs.

5000 watts is only like 6 horsepower, and most EV have more than 75 hp ?

Yeah, when you are staring at the choice of either purchasing a 20kWh battery for $20,000 dollars or an EV with a 60-80kWh battery for $40,000 dollars, it’s pretty much of a no-brainer.

We just need to wait for bidirectional EV charger technology and hybrid inverter technology to catch up.

Hybrid sees more solar energy coming in than can be consumers during the day and tells bidirectional EV charger to soak up as much of the excess energy as it can.

If/when EV is full, remaining excess solar power either gets exported or throttled-back (in the case of zero-export).

Once solar power drops below loads and throughout the night, hybrid sees load consumption that needs to be offset by EV rather than consuming from grid and tells bidirectional EV charger how much EV energy to convert to AC power in order to offset consumption.

I’m liking the AC-coupled 2-box architecture much more than the idea of an all-in-one (single box).

The only little wrinkle they may have to iron out is going full split-phase on the EV charger output though it seems like a hybrid that can convert 240V single-phase power to a zero-export 120V split-phase should be feasible.

And of course, those of us already on export agreements and now being forced to minimize consumption and export have no issue exporting on one 120V l leg and importing on the other (since the utility only measures and charges for not 240VAC export/import).

 

[Ampster]

Yeah, when you are staring at the choice of either purchasing a 20kWh battery for $20,000 dollars or an EV with a 60-80kWh battery for $40,000 dollars, it’s pretty much of a no-brainer.

My conclusion is different because I have a 42 kWh pack for my home that cost under $5,000 and two EVs that cost significantly more. It all depends on where you are standing.

 

[fafrd]

My conclusion is different because I have a 42 kWh pack for my home that cost under $5,000 and two EVs that cost significantly more. It all depends on where you are standing.

Understand. I was speaking from the perspective of non-DIYers who just want to go plug-and-play.

Cost trends for both off-the-shelf batteries and EVs are clear, and while the cost of both dropping, the cost of cells is not.

So it’s only a matter of time before building a DIY battery from cells will be for hobbyists only (as I believe I stated in a dedicated thread I started on that subject early this year).

I’ve built a 14.8kWh 24V battery for $1400 in cells + $100 for BMS + whatever you want to throw in for wiring and clamping fixture, so I know what you mean.

My issue is that as I look at scaling up to whole-day storage levels of 20kWh, the whole market seems geared toward high-voltage DC and attempting a solution at 24V or even 48V seems like trying to swim upstream.

So yeah, if you’ve already licked yourself in with EVs and a whole-day home storage battery, no need to change.

But if you’re looking at new purchases, getting an EV that supports true bi-directional charging through CCS such as the Volkswagen ID.4 along with a bi-directional-charger / hybrid inverter duo that can handle the task of absorbing excess production during the day and using that stored energy to offset consumption overnight looks like a much aside solution that trying to build your own HV powerwall or trying t cobble together a LV solution…

What voltage is your 42kWh battery and what hybrid inverter are you using to manage it?

 

[fafrd]

I spoke with Emporia.

Their Energy Monitor and smart EV charger are available today.

On the consumption side, this allows you to avoid export by controlling the smart EV charger to only charge when their is excess solar power being generated that would otherwise export to the grid.

The bidirectional EV charger will no be available before 2024 and the major reason for that is that they are awaiting EVs supporting bi-directional charging through CCS to be available.

According to them, the only EV announced to support bi-directional charging through CCS is the Volkswagen ID.4: https://insideevs.com/news/568191/vw-id4-plugcharge-bidirectional-charging/amp/

Until we’ve got both the EVs supporting V2H as well as bidirectional chargers such as the one being developed by Emporia, we can’t be certain whether V2X can be used to offset consumption (while grid-tied) or only for backup power use (off-grid).

Statements like this don’t help clear up that question at all:

‘The update will arrive in Vehicle to Home (V2H) form, which means ID.4 owners will be able to power their appliances from the car or the entire house in case of a blackout.’

On the other hand, the EV itself has no way of knowing what the bidirectional charger is going with the DC power it exports and when the Volkswagen exec makes statements such as this, it leaves me optimistic that bidirectional chargers such as the one being developed by Emporia will be capable of offsetting grid consumption using ID.4 battery energy:

“Bidirectional charging will be available this year for all ID. Models with 77 kWh battery, also via OTA update. In the beginning we will only offer Vehicle-to-home. This means you can run your dishwasher with electricity from abroad."

‘Abroad’ was likely a typo/confusion meant to refer to ‘onboard’ (the ID.4) but unless he meant you can run your dishwasher during a blackout, that sure sounds like load offsetting while on-grid…

I spoke with Emporia again and here are some notes on what I was told;

Specs/functionality of their bidirectional charger should be finalized by the end of Q1’23.

Charge functionality and specs will be unchanged from what their Smart Charger delivers today:

-minimum charge current of 1000W

-charge current maintained at 200W above export in ‘zero export’ mode

-so charging won’t start until export reaches ~800W

-real-time adjustments (every second or every few seconds) to ramp-uo and down charge current to follow excess PV production

-everything is a ‘black-box’ where users select operating mode such as ‘zero- export’ using a high-level app and the details of how that gets achieved through control of the charger is proprietary

-user data is sent trough the cloud where it is used to determine control configuration

-user data is not sold or provided to any 3rd parties but user data is proprietary and not accessible by users (apparently this is the biggest complaint they get).

Architecturally, I think theirs is the best solution I’ve seen for use of bidirectional charging to minimize import and export.

The fact that it’s a black box and you are limited to the configuration and settings they have predefined is not ideal (though understandable).

An open-source solution based on the same concept might be preferable, but I fear it’ll take much longer to reach market and will certainly involve much more screwing around.

I’ve already ‘tricked’ my GTIL inverters to ‘unsee’ my grid-tied solar export by splicing together CT sensors and since the only way to control the Emporia solution is through their monitor’s CT-sensor inputs, I’m thinking that’s at least one direction to go here (let their energy monitor ‘see’ 200W of consumption while my GTILS are actually offsetting all but 10-20W of that using battery energy).

Next milestone will be when VW actually releases support for bidirectional charging on the ID.4 and after that, we’ll just need to await bidirectional charger support including that of Emporia to capitalize on that.

 

[Ampster]

My issue is that as I look at scaling up to whole-day storage levels of 20kWh, the whole market seems geared toward high-voltage DC and attempting a solution at 24V or even 48V seems like trying to swim upstream.

I know the Tesla Powerwall and one of the LG Chem offerings are high voltage. I do see more UL listed batteries at 48 volts so I don't see the same trend as you..SimpliPhi, SOK, EG4 are just a few. What high voltage batteries are you seeing?

So it’s only a matter of time before building a DIY battery from cells will be for hobbyists only

I think DIYers and hobbyists are pretty much the same thing, so we are already there. How do you distinguish DIYers and hobbyists? I don't know anybody who professionally installs batteries that do it from cells. I can think of a half a dozen professional installers I have talked to or seen YT videos promoting their services like Engineer 775. They either do Powerwalls or one of the battery systems like LGChem, BYD, Simpliphi, Generac or the few others out there. No question DIYers are also doing some of those systems too but based on the content here, the majority are doing DIY packs using cells.

 

[fafrd]

I know the Tesla Powerwall and one of the LG Chem offerings are high voltage. I do see more UL listed batteries at 48 volts so I don't see the same trend as you..SimpliPhi, SOK, EG4 are just a few. What high voltage batteries are you seeing?

Just saw in another thread that you own an Emporia Energy Monitor. Interested to learn more from your experience (and just sent you a PM to that effect).

On battteries, 48V is considered LV.

The Powerwall is certainly HV and I believe other vendors including LG Chem have off-the-shelf HV battery offerings, but they are not cheap (nowhere near DIY battery prices).

By HV, we are generally speaking about batteries that are around 400VDC. Most every HV inverter spec I’ve seen has a minimum voltage of 200V if not 250V.

The dcbel unit is a good example. It has a battery voltage range of 240-500V: https://www.dcbel.energy/r16-specs

The Huayu AC-coupled battery chargers are another product I’ve been keeping my eye on. Their HV models support a battery voltage range of 150-550VDC: https://www.huayu-energy.com/cpxq?product_id=67

While their ‘LV’ products support a battery range of 40-60VDC:https://www.huayu-energy.com/cpxq?product_id=69

These 400V products are designed to support EV -class batteries and cobbling together your own 400V battery seems out of reach of today’s budget BMS technology.

Promoted by this exchange, I just checked Renvu’s site and I see they now offer a 400VDC battery from Growatt: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VYetn0XZNAth-XOLUoGii9dKcd-CHJv_/preview


$7000 for 9.9kWh, so that’s a solid discount off of what Tesla and LG Chem are charging..,

And that means my backup solution based on a 20kWh HV battery + Huayu AC inverter is getting more affordable .

 

[Ampster]

Okay, now I understand, you are talking about DC devices that support EV batteries, not a trend toward the typical hybrid inverter moving toward a higher nominal voltage above 48 volts. Those Growatt offerings are probably for a market other that the US where UL listing has become a NEC requirement and I do not see UL relaxing that restriction or increasing the voltage limit. Remember the Tesla Powerwall at $15,000 for a 13 kWh battery also includes an inverter that can AC couple with any GT inverter and includes a automatic transfer switch. The entire system is UL listed. Are any of the Growatt devices UL listed?

 

[fafrd]

Okay, now I understand, you are talking about DC devices that support EV batteries, not a trend toward the typical hybrid inverter moving toward a higher nominal voltage above 48 volts. Those Growatt offerings are probably for a market other that the US where UL listing has become a NEC requirement and I do not see UL relaxing that restriction or increasing the voltage limit. Remember the Tesla Powerwall at $15,000 for a 13 kWh battery also includes an inverter that can AC couple with any GT inverter and includes a automatic transfer switch. The entire system is UL listed. Are any of the Growatt devices UL listed?

Yes, they are (and I suspect their HV batteries are as well). Renvu only sells UL listed and CA-certified equipment…

 

[Ampster]

Yes, they are (and I suspect their HV batteries are as well). Renvu only sells UL listed and CA-certified equipment…

Then that very well may be the trend if UL listing becomes the name of the game for batteries. A UL listing may be the only way to qualify under NEC 2020.
EDIT:
I just checked the CEC website and Growatt inverters. are not listed there. Perhaps you should fact check before posting something like that on a public forum if you have not verified the facts. So much for Renvu selling only CEC approved equipment. I have bought lots of stuff from Renvu that was not "UL listed and CA certified".