Victron guidiance

[thepartyhound]

I had plans to purchase an EG4 system for an off grid cabin in the mountains. I was just about to pull the trigger on what I needed when I started looking around at all of the negative feedback in reguards to SS after sale support. Also, it seems a lot of people were having problems with their EG4 units. I really wanted to convince myself that this had more to do with user error than any actual problems with the hardware/firmware because the EG4 does appear to be one helluva bargain!
As much as I like a good deal, however, I don't want to end up in a position where I'm having problems and am unable to get the support needed to get it fixed due to the remote location and complete lack of cell service at the location. I need something that as long as I do my part it will just work. Victron seems like it might fit that bill.
One thing I like about the AIO EG4 is that it seemed very simple, beginner friendly. Victron does not seem to be aimed at beginners. It does not sound like a cheap made-in-communist-china kind of unit and I like that a lot more!
To start with, my system will be pretty small. I'm thinking I like the 5kW 48V Quattro inverter. I plan to use one of these to start with. I will use a 2.3kW PV array consisting of (10) 230 watt panels fed into a 150/70 smart MPPT. This part of the system I think I understand pretty clear.
Their "shunt" I am not so clear on. I plan on using their Lynx shunt and Lynx distributor. Along with these items, I have planned on using the Cerbo GX kit (touch screen included).
I do have some questions:

1) As a bare minimum system do I have to use the shunt, distributor, and Cerbo GX? Is there a less expensive way to accomplish the tasks handled by these units?

2) I had planned to use (2) 48v 100Ah Trophy batteries to start with. Will these communicate with the inverter, or do they even need to?

3) I plan to make this purchase through CurrentConnected. I have not seen any bad info on these guys and it seems a good idea to avoid SS for the reasons mentioned above. Is CC a good choice for a vendor? Are there any other better suggestions for a vendor?

4) From my understanding the Victron unit does not suffer from the same problems with using a generator that an EG4 does. Is my understanding correct? I had planned to use the EG4 chargeverter when I was still looking at the EG4 AIO system, but this should not be needed with the Victron, correct?

5) Will the MPPT I have mentioned above be large enough for the 10 panels I plan to use?

 

[sunshine_eggo]

1) Each component provides a specific function. Without a shunt, you don't have accurate voltage and current data. Without a GX, you don't get system integration or VRM. Personally, I don't see the need for the Lynx, but I'm sloppy that way.

2) Without a GX, absolutely not. No battery/BMS can communicate with any Victron component EXCEPT a GX. You'll need to check with Trophy.

3) CurrentConnected is run by @HighTechLab . He has a good reputation.

4) My Quattro tolerates the shitty power from my Harbor Freight Predator just fine. It has additional settings to make them even more tolerant of poor power quality and still retains 80% charge capability. Worth reading.

5)

2300W/48V = 47.9A max
2300W/56.8V = 40.5A min

So a 150/70A will more than take care of it and allow for some expansion.

If the Voc of the panels is 45-55 (72 cell), then you can only put two in series.

If the Voc of the panels is 35-40 (60 cell), then you can put three in series.

What panels?

 

[Yurtdweller]

I have a scratch-built system. I have continuously scaled my system, from 100 watts, to 200, then 400, now 1200 watts. Through all of that, I had to keep buying new CCs. Not a big deal, but I've used a lot of different CCs, until I landed on Victron. It's my favorite. I melted some cheap ones, running them right at the edge of spec. I had one with a fan that sounded like a hair dryer(returned it), and ran even if the unit wasn't actually warm. The Victron(150/100) just silently works. I also have a Lynx combiner(Lynx power In) that I modded to hold fuses. Each of my four LiFePo4 battery packs runs it's own line into the combiner. I had an old Victron BMV-700 coulomb counter, but did not incorporate it into my new build. I never really used it anymore, because I use the battery packs 4 BMSs, and read them with Liontron Multi app software, which reads all four BMSs as a single combined unit. I don't have any advanced monitor at the moment. The only caveat is that my CC does not read an accurate, true pack voltage. I've had to finagle the CC charge cutoff voltage just a tad lower, so that it stops charging the pack before the BMSs hit cutoff voltage. I've been considering getting the more advanced shunt. (The bmv-700 shunt does not have the communication capabilities I would need). That being said, my current system functions adequately. Cutting charging a tad early does not affect me. Sure, I may be missing out on a dozen or so amp hours, but my pack is well over 1100AH, so I'm certainly not missing those few amp hours. I only use between 60 and 200 ah per cycle anyway. Since I only have one Victron Smart component, I don't really see any need for the Cerbo. My app tells me what my charge level is at, and that's all I really need. This is an isolated system with only one charging source, and no grid-tie.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

This'll fix the voltage issue:

Amazon.com

Smartshunt even better.

 

[thepartyhound]

That was very much worth reading! It seems there is a huge amount of configuration flexibility with a Victron! It also seems that documentation is abundant, thorough, and concise.

The panels are used 230W Trina panels I found locally. Beyond that, I'm not sure if they are 60 or 72 cell, nor would I know how to tell. I have not bought them yet, but the price seemed reasonable. The pic he sent showing the panel was working appeared to show his multimeter connected to the panel and it generating 35 VOC. According to what you said above, I guess that would make it a 60 cell.

I will contact Trophy and see what they have to say about their batteries communicating with the Victron.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

That was very much worth reading! It seems there is a huge amount of configuration flexibility with a Victron! It also seems that documentation is abundant, thorough, and concise.

The panels are used 230W Trina panels I found locally. Beyond that, I'm not sure if they are 60 or 72 cell, nor would I know how to tell. I have not bought them yet, but the price seemed reasonable. The pic he sent showing the panel was working appeared to show his multimeter connected to the panel and it generating 35 VOC. According to what you said above, I guess that would make it a 60 cell.

I will contact Trophy and see what they have to say about their batteries communicating with the Victron.

The panels should have a label on the back. I would request a picture.

If 60 cell, you'll want 3S, which means you'll need 9 or 12 panels, not 10.

 

[Yurtdweller]

There's a reason the vast majority of watercraft feature Victron. They're rock solid. When it's a thousand miles to the nearest resupply, you want quality. On a side note, I did pay more for this CC than I paid for my first car

 

[thepartyhound]

That was a big part of the reason for my change in direction of thinking was quality. I don't want to have to do this again in 5 or even 10 years.

 

[HighTechLab]

Smartshunt functions the same as the Lynx shunt but is much less modular and only 500a rated vs 1000a (not that you'll be pushing either limit with the size system mentioned.

The smartshunt has bluetooth and works standalone, the lynx shunt does not and relies on the Cerbo.

I'd go with the Smartshunt getting started if you don't plan to go with the Cerbo. If you are going to make it a massive system later on, then it might be a good idea to go with the lynx, but you can go a long way on the SmartShunt.

Ah and you can also connect the SmartShunt to the Cerbo-GX with a VE.direct cable, so you don't have to pick one or the other based on a cerbo or no cerbo.

 

[thepartyhound]

@HighTechLab
Dexter, thanks for your input on this.
Will the smart shunt allow for remote monitor capabilities via the internet like the Cerbo does?
In the beginning, while I am building my place, this will be a small system installed in and on top of a shipping container supplying power to just a few small devices in my camp trailer. It will more or less take over the duties currently handled by my little 2kw predator (harbor freight). Once construction is complete I will move it to the basement of the cabin. At that time I may or may not add another inverter for 240, and perhaps a couple more batteries. This is likely enough reason to justify the added expense of the Cerbo from the start.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

@HighTechLab
Dexter, thanks for your input on this.
Will the smart shunt allow for remote monitor capabilities via the internet like the Cerbo does?

No. It is either bluetooth only or VE.Direct to a Cerbo or other GX device. The GX device + an internet connection + VRM is what allows remote monitoring.

For logging, if you select two parameters in the trends tab of VictronConnect, the smartshunt will record those two parameters for 45 days. You can't download them, but they are visible in the app.

In the beginning, while I am building my place, this will be a small system installed in and on top of a shipping container supplying power to just a few small devices in my camp trailer. It will more or less take over the duties currently handled by my little 2kw predator (harbor freight). Once construction is complete I will move it to the basement of the cabin. At that time I may or may not add another inverter for 240, and perhaps a couple more batteries. This is likely enough reason to justify the added expense of the Cerbo from the start.

The remote monitoring and control of the entire system is worth 3X the cost of the Cerbo. I have a CCGX and wish I had bought a Cerbo - didn't know any better.

My spot is 3.5 hours away, and without VRM, I would be a neurotic mess.

 

[thepartyhound]

My spot is 3.5 hours away, and without VRM, I would be a neurotic mess.

My place is only about an hour and a half from my primary residence, but it is all dirt road. In the winter, for the last 7 miles your options are are snowmobiling or hiking in snowshoes. As those last 7 miles represent about a 3500' elevation gain, I recommend the snowmobile option unless you are in peak physical condition and love a challenge!

So, I hate to ask a dumb question, but what is VRM? Victron Remote Management? Is this another device I need in addition to the Cerbo?

 

[sunshine_eggo]

My place is only about an hour and a half from my primary residence, but it is all dirt road. In the winter, for the last 7 miles your options are are snowmobiling or hiking in snowshoes. As those last 7 miles represent about a 3500' elevation gain, I recommend the snowmobile option unless you are in peak physical condition and love a challenge!

For us, it's just distance - about 180 miles. The last 1.25 miles is well maintained cinders (neighbor is further down the road than us, and he's maintained it for 25 years). 99% of the time, we get there in an old Prius (my neighbor's wife commutes daily from their spot in an old Prius). It's only an issue when it rains... which isn't much in the high desert of AZ... about 11" per year.

So, I hate to ask a dumb question, but what is VRM? Victron Remote Management? Is this another device I need in addition to the Cerbo?

VRM - Remote Monitoring - Victron Energy

Monitor, manage and optimise your Victron Energy systems remotely and catch potential issues early by setting alerts and alarms.

www.victronenergy.com

The Cerbo or other GX device enables use of VRM provided you have an internet connection or use one of their LTE cellular options.

 

[Nan_wpg]

1) Each component provides a specific function. Without a shunt, you don't have accurate voltage and current data. Without a GX, you don't get system integration or VRM. Personally, I don't see the need for the Lynx, but I'm sloppy that way.

2) Without a GX, absolutely not. No battery/BMS can communicate with any Victron component EXCEPT a GX. You'll need to check with Trophy.

3) CurrentConnected is run by @HighTechLab . He has a good reputation.

4) My Quattro tolerates the shitty power from my Harbor Freight Predator just fine. It has additional settings to make them even more tolerant of poor power quality and still retains 80% charge capability. Worth reading.

5)

2300W/48V = 47.9A max
2300W/56.8V = 40.5A min

So a 150/70A will more than take care of it and allow for some expansion.

If the Voc of the panels is 45-55 (72 cell), then you can only put two in series.

If the Voc of the panels is 35-40 (60 cell), then you can put three in series.

What panels?

So Victron is suggesting a non inverter generator? I thought the inverter generators were “better”?

 

[HRTKD]

So Victron is suggesting a non inverter generator? I thought the inverter generators were “better”?

I don't think that's what Victron is saying at all. My Onan 5500 genset is not an inverter generator and it works great. What Victron is saying is that some generators suck and you need to be careful when purchasing one. There are settings within the Multiplus that make allowances for less than ideal power, but there's only so much the inverter can do when you buy crap.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

So Victron is suggesting a non inverter generator? I thought the inverter generators were “better”?

Nope. They give guidance here:

"If you do want an inverter based generator (eg for noise reasons under lower loading), get one that is at least 30% larger than required than an equivalent AVR based model to help prevent nuisance overloads."

I'm guessing you're an adult living in the real world, and you've seen for yourself that the world is not comprised primarily of blacks and whites, but various shades of grey. Things work better in some situations for different reasons.

Victron is pointing out that there are some disadvantages to inverter generators. Brief overloads of an inverter generator are handled by the electronics, which may not be as robust. Non-inverter generators can partially rely on the rotational inertia of the engine/alternator to handle the overload with a corresponding drop in voltage and frequency without necessarily giving up. The governor will dry to compensate with more fuel even if the rpm has decreased, up to a point. A standard generator may have several seconds to recover from an overload situation for this reason, where an inverter generator may have milliseconds.

 

[z_zk_z]

Deleted

 

[Nan_wpg]

Nope. They give guidance here:

"If you do want an inverter based generator (eg for noise reasons under lower loading), get one that is at least 30% larger than required than an equivalent AVR based model to help prevent nuisance overloads."

I'm guessing you're an adult living in the real world, and you've seen for yourself that the world is not comprised primarily of blacks and whites, but various shades of grey. Things work better in some situations for different reasons.

Victron is pointing out that there are some disadvantages to inverter generators. Brief overloads of an inverter generator are handled by the electronics, which may not be as robust. Non-inverter generators can partially rely on the rotational inertia of the engine/alternator to handle the overload with a corresponding drop in voltage and frequency without necessarily giving up. The governor will dry to compensate with more fuel even if the rpm has decreased, up to a point. A standard generator may have several seconds to recover from an overload situation for this reason, where an inverter generator may have milliseconds.

Definately many shades of grey in solar.

my take is that the multipluss will take care of the generator (via charger current adjustment).

just generator shopping right now.

 

[thepartyhound]

So Victron is suggesting a non inverter generator? I thought the inverter generators were “better”?

I, personally, am of the mindset that simple is better. While I have a couple smaller inverter generators, and love them for the purposes I use them for, I don't think they even qualify as a "standby" generator, let alone a "prime" generator. I think most inverter generators are used as portable generators for camping and such. In short, I think most inverter generators would experience relatively short lives if used regularly to handle heavy loads (battery charging).
This is a good bit of info discussing this topic: https://www.generatorsource.com/Standby_vs-_Prime_vs-_Continuous_Generator_Power.aspx

 

[HighTechLab]

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View attachment 136518

wow. This needs some more love.