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Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi finally say they will use Tesla’s EV charging plug
The last major automaker to bend the knee to Tesla.
www.theverge.com
Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi finally say they will use Tesla’s EV charging plug
- Thread starter rhino
- Start date
www.theverge.com
teal95
Solar Addict
Has Stellantis (Chrysler, Jeep, Puegot, Citroen, Fiat...) announced anything?
Yeah another supercharged V
IMO it’ll only be time that the feds get involved and break up the Tesla “monopoly” on charging infrastructure and force it to spin off as the Standard Oil of the 21st century.
Yeah they are finally putting a Hellcat in the Pacifica!!!!
IMO it’ll only be time that the feds get involved and break up the Tesla “monopoly” on charging infrastructure and force it to spin off as the Standard Oil of the 21st century.
A charging station not owned by Tesla can support NACS (North American Charging Standard) and many are already doing so or in process of doing so.
ksmithaz1
Solar / EV Junkie
Tesla has fewer charging stations all together than the others, they just have more fast charger plugs than all the rest combined. EA has ~4000, and now that the hardware platforms are starting to improve other companies are building out their networks as well. It gets harder to stay on top as the equipment starts to be commodity. Unlike Standard Oil, all a charging station is providing is an interface to the local grid, so everyone is buying the same electricity on the backend.
That being said, there are those bizarre folks trying to punish Elon for buying Twitter/X, and exposing government involvement in controlling on-line speech and content. Since they can't control him, we will assuredly see regulations designed to hamper any expansion if they can figure out how.
Spoken like a true Rockefeller ?
“Pricing for non-Tesla drivers reflects additional costs incurred to support Supercharging a broad range of vehicles and adjustments to our sites to accommodate these vehicles. Rates vary by site, and you can view prices in the Tesla app. The per kWh price to charge can be lowered with a Supercharging Membership.”
Ampster
Renewable Energy Hobbyist
Not unless they find that Tesla is abusing that position. There is nothing that prevents other manufacturers from using the NACS form factor or protocols. I think the protocol is actually an open standard. As far as I can tell there are no barriers to entry to prevent others from competing. At this point in time the Tesla Superchargers have been the most reliable and the fastest. I have been using them since 2016. They were fairly sparse back then and I owned a Chademo adaptor for the convenience. However the few times I used it, the stations were slow or in some cases only charged for 30 minutes before turning off. I ultimately sold the adaptor after the Supercharger network filled out.
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badazin
New Member
And you like true Communist ?
ImAnIdiotPleaseBePatient
Solar Enthusiast
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2022
- Messages
- 459
Tesla may have fewer charging stations, but they have 10x the amount that actually work.
ksmithaz1
Solar / EV Junkie
No non-Tesla fast chargers AFAIK have J3400 plugs. However a CCS to J3400/NACS adapter has been around for a couple of years, and I've parked next to a few Tesla's charging/complaining about EA when it was the best/only close L3 option, and only delivering 50KW or something.
Grizzle-E has a DCFC under $20K that runs on 105A (125A circuit) Single Phase 240, that supports OCPP, and can be tied into a billing system, (Like chargepoint) that pushes 25KW, your choice of plug NACS/CCS. So now put up a big solar array, three 12KW out inverters in parallel, and stick it all outside of a commercial location someone might be in for an hour, and bill out roughly $0.50/kwh. Put in 200-300KWH of battery, bank grid juice off-peak, sell it on-peak.
Don't need to be a Rockefeller to grab some of the edge market. Everyone is focusing on the 350KW stations, way tougher, and you get billed tether fees if you don't disconnect. If you make plugging in convenient and easy, in settings where people might be there for a longer time, and don't charge tether fee's, you don't really need a couple megawatts to build a couple of stations.
The problem is even at that you lose your shirt. I think people don't grok business markup., but if you are charging 0.50/kwh and paying 0.25/kw for grid, your net is 0.25/kw. For round figures say you are charging at 100KWH you are talking $25/hour. Say you can keep the stall full for 12 hours. That's $300/day. A typical DCFC 350KW pedestal costs $150K. The math really doesn't work, in particular if you have to do any kind of maintenance you are upside down before you even get going. Compare it to a much less expensive ~$20K gas station pump that makes 0.25-0.50/gal that shoves 15 gallons of fuel in your car in under 5 minutes. Call it $3x12 = $36/hour (actually much higher). We just are not quite there yet.
badazin
New Member
Well they make a product that work, the other comp can do the same!!!
ksmithaz1
Solar / EV Junkie
DCFC about 4 times as many plugs as all the rest combined as of 2023/Q3. EA has gotten quite a bit better since this mess started, but I'd say closer to 6x working. The ratio gap will narrow, since if both put in another 1000 plugs the ratio will drop. The problem is just the cost of the equipment is still too high.
Chademo is actually superior in one aspect, in that it supports bidirectional charging (if you can find a charger that supports it).
I've never used a public charging station, so I don't know the details, but from what I understand, adapters are/will be available, so I don't see why it matters.
That said, I'm all for standards as long as they're open, and my understanding is that NACS is. I've never cared about what gas station I go to, as long as it's convenient and priced competitive, but nothing is more convenient and price competitive than my home charger. The charging plug is pretty much at the bottom of my list of considerations.
zanydroid
Solar Wizard
Technically true. The best kind of true.
TWIL that Chademo has a last hurrah as part of a Sino-Japanese charging standard.
I bought a nicer non-Tesla EV with features that would be nice for long distance driving, and I want NACS to succeed ASAP so that I don't feel like I made a horrible lifestyle choice.
Adapters may not work for all EVs.
For AC charging, J3400 expects the car to tolerate 277V (but perhaps not accept it), while J1772 was limited to 240V. So potentially some OEMs will not support it, and if you fry your port with the wrong kind of adapter, sucks to be you. (Probably unlikely. I think it's possible to build a low cost, small adapter that can protect against this, and most EVs probably can tolerate 277V with no damage. Different question whether they'll CHARGE from 277V)
For CCS, it's not immediately clear to me how Tesla SuperChargers with no payment UI nor hardware would be updated to work with cars that were never updated by OEM to support plug & charge (I don't know if they always transmit VIN/other unique ID already. Most CCS chargers were NOT plug & charge so there's a high probability to be sad).
Teslas have always had plug & charge, which is why the UI is optional/not present on SuperChargers.
Does NACS not share bidirectional charging with CCS2 protocol? (I don't have a direct reference but that was my assumption all along)
My coworker bought a Tesla for exactly that reason, and he left today on a drive around the country for the holidays, which is great, but not for me.
It's up to Tesla to figure out how to win the charger race, but I would try to avoid them if I couldn't just drive up and pay like everything else.
zanydroid
Solar Wizard
My coworker bought a Tesla for exactly that reason, and he left today on a drive around the country for the holidays, which is great, but not for me.
My sly strategy is to wait until 2025 to do a road trip, then my brother (serial Tesla owner) and my wife won't have concrete data with which to make fun of me for my terrible lifestyle choice.
But then you lose the big value of NACS. Tesla chargers have much less downtime. (Though, if you added in potential handshaking headaches, maybe not).
I guess Tesla could just implement app-based payment.
Would you want to have to install an app and sign up for some payment service for every gas station you filled up your ICE car at? I'm sure they can figure out how to install a standard credit card / NFC reader in their chargers.
hwy17
Anti-Solar Enthusiast
That's what I was thinking about the other day when some family was talking about charging. Why don't they just take a card payment like a gas pump yet. Sometimes we get ahead of ourselves and downgrade an experience in the name of advancement.
zanydroid
Solar Wizard
Non-Tesla owners already have to install the app for every charge network along your route to hedge against the station being busted, and to hedge against your preferred charge network having busted chargers where you need a charger.
Very few people are installing apps for random independent charge networks.
Could be showing my age. It's either activate remotely via app or with a special NFC card, during my time of using non-Tesla EVs. Currently I activate via app on my EV, so that I can use the free charging ($25 value per month), and b/c the EV/charge network not have plug & charge.
ksmithaz1
Solar / EV Junkie
Honestly, I don't think so. I think, at least in the US, NACS will dominate so much that everything else will be mostly gone in 5 years. The bulk of the EV's in the US are already NACS and CCS just hasn't been around long enough to create a relevant market share. I think most people with EV's today home charge the vast majority of the time. I would say this is even more true of non-Tesla owners with CCS, simply because the charging network is just barely functional compared to Tesla. Thus in about a year the percentage of CCS vehicles will start to take a nose dive, as all the new models will have a NACS outlet. People who travel with CCS will tote an adapter anyway to take advantage of the drastically larger percentage of NACS plugs that will be available, so the incentive to have a "native" CCS plug on new stations will fall like a rock. Since the adapter is a fairly trivial device it isn't even that inconvenient.
CHADEMO was already dead in the US, Nissan was going to shift to the CCS plug in the US anyway, so for the Leaf, not so big a deal. There are already CCS->CHADEMO adapters being worked on as well, probably see a NACS version if there is enough demand.
I also expect to see conversion kits at some point for existing CCS vehicles.
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ksmithaz1
Solar / EV Junkie
Plugshare is a must-have for non-tesla people if you want to travel. The problem with credit card payment at some of the CCS stations is it's hit-or-miss whether it will work or not. Back in the day, ... My old man had a Gulf card, a Texaco card, and an Esso card for whenever we traveled. So what you are intimating is not exactly "un-precedented". At this point the places I'm tripping to are only covered by EA, so I killed all the other apps, but I had chargepoint, and evgo as well at one time. I've seen a number of people fighting EA and cursing EVGO in the past over the CC readers, so short term I expect multiple apps to be the norm. Also some of the "EA" stations are sponsored and not eligible for the 'Free' leccy promo's which really trips people's triggers. Strange that a station hooked up to the main electrical grid cannot have a reliable CC reader, but they don't.
wattmatters
Solar Wizard
In Australia Tesla superchargers are CCS Type 2, as are all Teslas models sold here. CC2 Type 2 is the standard for here. Chademo still exists for the few older cars that use it but I'd imagine it will fade away.
Most of the Tesla charge stations are for Tesla vehicles only, but they are gradually opening up some stations for non-Tesla vehicles. They charge a premium for non-Tesla cars, although you can pay Tesla a monthly fee to get the same per kWh tariff.
Tesla's charge locations have more stations and are more reliable (better maintained) but still have some issues. Else we are dealing with a dozen other charge station providers, all with their own apps and payment processes. It's a crappy user experience, and their reliability isn't great.
Governments here are helping to subsidise charge stations to be installed at strategic locations to fill gaps in the highway network, and they are introducing some reliability standards and also consistency with payment processes. We really shouldn't need a dozen apps on our phone to charge a car. Tap 'n' go should be standard. It's tricky with such a big country, long highways with 1/15th the population.
It is improving but highway travel here does require some planning and having alternative options in mind. If you are a regularly driving the highways here, then a Tesla car is a better choice because of their superior charger network, and since they use the same CCS Type 2 plugs, they can use all the other charge station networks as well.
Else if highway trips are infrequent then it's manageable most of the time, but at times it's also a real PITA and I sure would not want to be highway travelling in an EV here during peak holiday periods. Expect long waits for a working charger.
Most of the Tesla charge stations are for Tesla vehicles only, but they are gradually opening up some stations for non-Tesla vehicles. They charge a premium for non-Tesla cars, although you can pay Tesla a monthly fee to get the same per kWh tariff.
Tesla's charge locations have more stations and are more reliable (better maintained) but still have some issues. Else we are dealing with a dozen other charge station providers, all with their own apps and payment processes. It's a crappy user experience, and their reliability isn't great.
Governments here are helping to subsidise charge stations to be installed at strategic locations to fill gaps in the highway network, and they are introducing some reliability standards and also consistency with payment processes. We really shouldn't need a dozen apps on our phone to charge a car. Tap 'n' go should be standard. It's tricky with such a big country, long highways with 1/15th the population.
It is improving but highway travel here does require some planning and having alternative options in mind. If you are a regularly driving the highways here, then a Tesla car is a better choice because of their superior charger network, and since they use the same CCS Type 2 plugs, they can use all the other charge station networks as well.
Else if highway trips are infrequent then it's manageable most of the time, but at times it's also a real PITA and I sure would not want to be highway travelling in an EV here during peak holiday periods. Expect long waits for a working charger.
jonas
New Member
NACS support bidirectional charging but Tesla has not implemented it for any of their cars.
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