Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi finally say they will use Tesla’s EV charging plug

[webbbn]

You appear to have completely mis-read the article.

277v is a common voltage you can tap from 3-phase power and is used for L2 charging in some places. The brick that runs your laptop is probably happy with anything from 90-250VAC, most will work even with 277v (ask me how I know). Most newer "L2" EVSE's are happy with anything from 110v-250v which would be most US split-phase service. Supporting 277V is all about the EVSE and on-board not blowing up if the vehicle happens to see the voltage that high, not about moving everything to 277v.

The double-ended cable is something you CAN use if you want to set up chargers in an area that might have nighttime vandalism or where leaving a permanent cable would have people running over or destroying it, like at a parallel parking spot on a curb in a city. You put in a box with a cover or maybe a locking door over the outlet. You open it and connect your cable while you are there charging. Disconnect and close the door when you leave. This is also where 277 comes in as it is often used for lighting circuits coming off commercial 3-phase, so you could just tap it on say a light pole at a curb or in a parking lot.

Basically the article is saying you have more options with NACS/J3400 than CCS or J1772, which is going to work out better.

Maybe you're correct, which is why I was hoping to see the actual standard, but the article is far from clear IMO.


"The main reason for this is the standard is preserving NACS’ support for 277 volts, as opposed to the 208-240 voltage of J1772"

I read that as NACS is supporting 277V "as opposed to the 208-240 voltage of J1772". Why wouldn't they just say that it expands the voltage up to 277V?


"J1772 standard requires a permanently attached cable, which means that streetside cables get dropped, broken, laid around, and otherwise abused.

The new NACS standard instead uses a standardized receptacle"

This clearly says "The new NACS standard instead uses a standardized receptacle", not "adds the option of using a standardized receptacle".

 

[zanydroid]

The article does have issues, but the interpretations are at worse 50/50 on those ambiguous points. All I know about this was from that article and reading threads involving people whose knowledge was mostly from that article.

Well I did know beforehand that NACS supports up to 277, and Tesla was one of the few with guaranteed 277v AC charging up to now. And of course NACS works for 208 and 240, otherwise you couldn’t have installed home charging for a Tesla.

 

[ksmithaz1]

Having read thru the various standards mentioned multiple times I guess my mind danced passed the grammatical issues. The whole article was a bit of a puff piece touting NACS as the savior of the EV charging industry. Meh. NACS-J3400/J1772 are connector and signaling specs. Since the NACS plug supports 1000vdc at the AC/DC pins, the AC voltage limit was somewhat of a moot point, and the tesla on-board charger was simply designed to work with up to 277vac nominal. J1772 had dedicated pins for AC rated nominally at 240v/80a(on the latest rev). Some tesla destination chargers are connected to 277 for the reasons outlined above. Since AC and DC are riding the same bus The NACS spec specifies that anything connected to the power pins of the connector must tolerate seeing dc voltages up to 1000v and/or ac up to whatever. Higher AC capability of the conductors is sort of a given at that point, but it means the on-board charger and DC charging circuits are responsible for making sure they like what they see before using it, and can stop using if we see something we doesn't like. This was not part of the J1772 specifications since AC and DC rode different busses. This is really a total non-issue for using a CCS-NACS DC adaptor because it splits the pins back out, and doesn't support AC charging anyway. I have a NACS to J1772, it could be an issue if the on-board doesn't like 277v and I happen to connect to a destination charger that is passing 277 thru instead of 240. Moving forward the car's on-board will figure it out, so not something we need to be concerned with. Could possibly be a concern if you are using an tesla destination unit with a J1772 adaptor to an older model EV.

From an electrical standpoint, an extra 30v, ~15% hot is probably not going to create an issue, but it could.

 

[G00SE]

Now that SAE has finalized the NACS Standard MUCH WILL CHANGE !

Faster Roll Outs at a much LOWER EXPENSE (installation & powering chargers)
Much easier/cheaper to deploy in commercial/retail & multi-unit residential lots.
Common Post Interface (no dangling cables, EV owner supplies cable that plugs into std charger port then their EV)
Enables simplified kWh Billing (finally, charging for actual amount of juice used)

READ HERE !!! https://electrek.co/2023/12/15/saes...d-itll-fix-every-ev-charging-problem-at-once/

I don’t know why this would be a game changer. Elon released his patents to the public a decade ago for his EV.
He allowed others to use his plug from the beginning, they chose to compete.

I realize that now, it should help moving forward, but lunacy is why we are even here

 

[G00SE]

EV skeptic company Toyota? With really far behind platforms like solterra / bz4x? And sometimes acting like hydrogen is a better investment than EVs?

Are they bad and far behind because they are far more conservative in their battery demand?
I look at Toyota as typically the “smartest in the room”
If they are choosing to intentionally have something “not quite as ground breaking” in the name of reliability, that’s fine by me

 

[Ampster]

If they are choosing to intentionally have something “not quite as ground breaking” in the name of reliability, that’s fine by me

I would be fine with that as well if I truly believed it. I have had a few Toyotas and they are definitely reliable. However owning three Teslas since 2016 there is a whole other aspect of reliability that I think Toyota is missing. No oil changes, brakes that last over 100,000 miles, much lower overall cost of operation and convenience of charging at home.
I also do not think EVs are ground breaking since there have been EVs for over 100 years. The battery technology has been around for thirty years in cell phones and laptops.

 

[G00SE]

I would be fine with that as well if I truly believed it. I have had a few Toyotas and they are definitely reliable. However owning three Teslas since 2016 there is a whole other aspect of reliability that I think Toyota is missing. No oil changes, brakes that last over 100,000 miles, much lower overall cost of operation and convenience of charging at home.
I also do not think EVs are ground breaking since there have been EVs for over 100 years. The battery technology has been around for thirty years in cell phones and laptops.

I consider Tesla on an island tbh. No one can seem to replicate them effectively at the moment.
From my reading on the bz4x it appeared many qualms were slow charge rate which I attributed to Toyota design, rather than say try and emulate Hyundai with their 350 charging rates that seem hit or miss at times
It does appear that the Toyota/Subaru platform is the highest ground clearance available sub 50k price though

 

[zanydroid]

Are they bad and far behind because they are far more conservative in their battery demand?
I look at Toyota as typically the “smartest in the room”
If they are choosing to intentionally have something “not quite as ground breaking” in the name of reliability, that’s fine by me

A big part of it is related to Japanese car industry and government desires. A huge proportion of the economy is dependent on ICE supply chain, and would be out of luck after an EV transition.

For instance they sink money into hydrogen ICE (lol) as a Hail Mary to keep that part of their intellectual property and economy relevant.

That said I think they are also betting on PHEVs playing a bigger role in the transition.

 

[zanydroid]

From my reading on the bz4x it appeared many qualms were slow charge rate which I attributed to Toyota design, rather than say try and emulate Hyundai with their 350 charging rates that seem hit or miss at times

Hyundai “350kW” charge rate in theory is OK. The issue is interop problems with 400V stations.

Here’s an article going over some of the issues. Note that a ton of companies leapfrogged Tesla to 800V. Lucid, Volkswagen, Hyundai, …

Hyundai's E-GMP Can Use 400/800V DC Chargers But What Is The Efficiency?

The 800 V battery system is one of the solutions that allows increasing the charging power, without increasing current. But what is the efficiency?

insideevs.com

Meanwhile Toyota was two generations behind with the bz4x architecture.

 

[chrisski]

My biggest beef with the Tesla stations is they are not that convenient when driving. Very rarely in my drives in AZ has it been located at a place you can grab a bite to eat. The restaurants if by one, would take longer than the charging and that leads to a mystery parking fee if you stay past full charge. Some are outside hotels not located by anything else.

Even though my diesel truck costs five times as much in fuel than my tesla uses in electricity, the convenience of being able to enjoy more on these longer trips without having to stop for 45 minutes and charge and either have no where to eat or be forced to eat at the Burger King, I really may take the truck on the next trip.

There could be a business model for these new charging stations that make it an “experience.”

 

[Quattrohead]

The future is actually exchangeable battery units where you can just drive up to a station, get your battery pack swapped and drive on.

 

[zanydroid]

The future is actually exchangeable battery units where you can just drive up to a station, get your battery pack swapped and drive on.

Tesla talked a lot about this and did a few pilots , didn’t go very far.

The battery swap model is very popular for electric motor scooters in Asia though. In that situation the batteries are much smaller and do not require special machinery / facilities. You just… use your hands to pull it out.

 

[webbbn]

Tesla talked a lot about this and did a few pilots , didn’t go very far.

The battery swap model is very popular for electric motor scooters in Asia though. In that situation the batteries are much smaller and do not require special machinery / facilities. You just… use your hands to pull it out.

It's becoming more popular in Europe and China from what I've been reading.

 

[Steve_S]

I don’t know why this would be a game changer. Elon released his patents to the public a decade ago for his EV.
He allowed others to use his plug from the beginning, they chose to compete.

I realize that now, it should help moving forward, but lunacy is why we are even here

Because the SAE Standards make it an Industry Standard which every company can now adopt & conform to.

SAE International, formerly named the Society of Automotive Engineers, is a United States-based, globally active professional association and standards developing organization for engineering professionals in various industries.

Now the Standard is not in any single hands, it is fully public.

 

[justinm001]

My biggest beef with the Tesla stations is they are not that convenient when driving. Very rarely in my drives in AZ has it been located at a place you can grab a bite to eat. The restaurants if by one, would take longer than the charging and that leads to a mystery parking fee if you stay past full charge. Some are outside hotels not located by anything else.

Even though my diesel truck costs five times as much in fuel than my tesla uses in electricity, the convenience of being able to enjoy more on these longer trips without having to stop for 45 minutes and charge and either have no where to eat or be forced to eat at the Burger King, I really may take the truck on the next trip.

There could be a business model for these new charging stations that make it an “experience.”

I disagree with this. Seems most are strategically placed in grocery stores and shopping centers. Every one I've been to is perfect for me to park, grab lunch or something and leave when 70%+

 

[ksmithaz1]

The future is actually exchangeable battery units where you can just drive up to a station, get your battery pack swapped and drive on.

I been saying this would have to happen for the last 10 years. . . Still nuthin. The problem is packing enough juice in the frame of the car makes it difficult to create a standardized removable pack.

 

[chrisski]

I disagree with this. Seems most are strategically placed in grocery stores and shopping centers. Every one I've been to is perfect for me to park, grab lunch or something and leave when 70%+

Wish the convenience was there at the dozen or so that I used. The best I had was a gas station with upper end gas station food. Not something I really looked forward to on a 8 hour drive.

 

[ksmithaz1]

I disagree with this. Seems most are strategically placed in grocery stores and shopping centers. Every one I've been to is perfect for me to park, grab lunch or something and leave when 70%+

Wow, where is this mythical world you live in? I took a trip AZ-MS, not one DCFC was in a particularly convenient location. Most were buried well off the hiway, two near convenience stores, one in the middle of a small town about 2 miles off the hiway in front of the local electric co-op, Several in Wal-marts that were a little spooky at 12AM, El Paso I had my 9mm handy. One at a hotel relatively close to the hiway. One in front of a hotel at the top of the mountain, I didn't stay there either.

 

[justinm001]

Wish the convenience was there at the dozen or so that I used. The best I had was a gas station with upper end gas station food. Not something I really looked forward to on a 8 hour drive.

Closest to me is behind a Chipotle, another at a Kroger

Wow, where is this mythical world you live in? I took a trip AZ-MS, not one DCFC was in a particularly convenient location. Most were buried well off the hiway, two near convenience stores, one in the middle of a small town about 2 miles off the hiway in front of the local electric co-op, Several in Wal-marts that were a little spooky at 12AM, El Paso I had my 9mm handy. I at a hotel relatively close to the hiway. One in front of a hotel at the top of the mountain, I didn't stay there either.

Interesting. I'm in Columbus, OH. Closest to my office was just built and is behind a Chipotle with restaurants all around. Next Closest is 2 miles away and in a Kroger. Other I know is in a Meijer and another was in a giant eagle, we crossed the street and grabbed chic-fil-a while it charged.

In Tampa one was at a gas station by bunch of shops, another in a piggly wiggly and the 3rd was at another shopping lot.

 

[chrisski]

Sounds like this business model is working better out East.

Closest to me is behind a Chipotle, another at a Kroger

When I've seen places like Chipotle or McDonalds with Tesla chargeres, the place is usually trashed do to the amount of non-paying customers from the Tesla going through and using the facilities. Trash piled high in the cans and falling on to the floor.

Interesting. I'm in Columbus, OH. Closest to my office was just built and is behind a Chipotle with restaurants all around. Next Closest is 2 miles away and in a Kroger. Other I know is in a Meijer and another was in a giant eagle, we crossed the street and grabbed chic-fil-a while it charged.

Most of the places I'm at if you cross the street its a four lane divided highway to the other side. I get out so little, I'm looking for more than just Chick Filet to eat on these long trips.

 

[zanydroid]

I've noticed two models of fast charging here in the San Francisco area.

One is sort of embedded near shopping / housing / etc. The others are convenient to freeway / long distance driving routes. So on the peninsula, that corresponds to El Camino (ish, IE 10-15 min away from the freeway sometimes) for the former and US101 (ish) for the latter. A lot of Superchargers are near 101, so they used to be a reasonably efficient way to exploit free Supercharging when that was still a thing.

 

[justinm001]

I've noticed two models of fast charging here in the San Francisco area.

One is sort of embedded near shopping / housing / etc. The others are convenient to freeway / long distance driving routes. So on the peninsula, that corresponds to El Camino (ish, IE 10-15 min away from the freeway sometimes) for the former and US101 (ish) for the latter. A lot of Superchargers are near 101, so they used to be a reasonably efficient way to exploit free Supercharging when that was still a thing.

This makes sense. It seems they initially built them so you can travel anywhere so they placed them near the highways. Now Teslas are mass produced they're placing them in shopping areas better suited for rapid charging.

When traveling I'd rather stop right off the freeway and sit in the car then drive 20 minutes out of my way to charge with a restaurant.

 

[zanydroid]

This makes sense. It seems they initially built them so you can travel anywhere so they placed them near the highways. Now Teslas are mass produced they're placing them in shopping areas better suited for rapid charging.

When traveling I'd rather stop right off the freeway and sit in the car then drive 20 minutes out of my way to charge with a restaurant.

It's another reason why having planning to use multiple charging networks is important. It doesn't really make sense for every charging network to be in every location. Depending on when the network entered the area, they might pick different deployment concepts.

 

[wattmatters]

The only two companies I would ever trust for an EV purchase would be Tesla and Toyota.

Given Toyota has shown very little interest in manufacturing BEV, that's an interesting take.

Then there is this:

Toyota recalls 1.85 million RAV4s in the US due to fire risk, Australian impact unclear

More than 1.85 million Toyota RAV4s have been recalled in the US, due to incorrectly-sized battery clamps which increase the risk of a fire.

www.drive.com.au

Most EVs sold here, including Tesla, are made in China. Better quality than the US made cars.

 

[G00SE]

Given Toyota has shown very little interest in manufacturing BEV, that's an interesting take.

Then there is this:

Toyota recalls 1.85 million RAV4s in the US due to fire risk, Australian impact unclear

More than 1.85 million Toyota RAV4s have been recalled in the US, due to incorrectly-sized battery clamps which increase the risk of a fire.

www.drive.com.au

Most EVs sold here, including Tesla, are made in China. Better quality than the US made cars.

How many bolt, kona, and niros got batteries replaced, as a percentage?
Ram had a massive recall as well.
Happens to em all