want to wire a few outlets in the walls before sheetrock. not sure if i need a box. want to make it easy ?

[Checkthisout]

Wow using a remodel box to mount a ceiling fan.

The very definition of a hack!!!!!

Do your parents know you're sneaking into their liquor cabinet and then playing on the internet?

Tell me you know nothing about simple household electrical work without telling me.

Seriously though. I don't really want to be that mean.

Westinghouse 21.5 cu. in. Retrofit Ceiling Fan Saf-T-Brace 0140000 - The Home Depot

This Westinghouse Saf-T-Brace allows you to safely install your ceiling fan or lighting fixture in three easy steps--without having to access attic space. Ideal for installation during new construction

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[GravelRider]

Remodel boxes are not the wrong way. That's being silly.

They get used all the time in New construction for various reasons and are a tried and true method of mounting outlets and switches and fans.

Very handy to be able to do final config after customer and builder have settled on the positioning of things.

They are not a "hack".

I'm not saying there aren't reasons to use them in new construction, but they should be avoided in place of new work boxes whenever possible. And they are not commonly used compared to the new work boxes.

I've used plenty of remodel boxes over the years... so I'm not saying they don't have a place. However, I would never purposely put up sheetrock, with plans of using an old work box later. More work for an inferior final product. There are very few reasons why this would be preferential to using new work boxes from the beginning.

 

[Checkthisout]

Drill a new hole in the metal box and drill through sole plate and pull wire? Or cut sheetrock, remove old box fish wire and install larger box?
What I don't get is how to get past the box without gutting something.

You mean for old wall gang boxes?

Do you have plaster/lath walls?

 

[Checkthisout]

I'm not saying there aren't reasons to use them in new construction, but they should be avoided in place of new work boxes whenever possible. And they are not commonly used compared to the new work boxes.

I've used plenty of remodel boxes over the years... so I'm not saying they don't have a place. However, I would never purposely put up sheetrock, with plans of using an old work box later. More work for an inferior final product. There are very few reasons why this would be preferential to using new work boxes from the beginning.

Yes of course you wouldn't do a whole house that way.

I think they are easier though.

Hold box up to wall, trace around it, use oscillating tool make opening, grab wire and pull into box, set box clamps and done.

Literally less than 5 minutes especially when compared to moving an outlet to clear a mirror, book case or whatever.

You probably just do the electrical stuff and not whole finished projects. Sparkys don't do sheetrock work so I can see why you wouldn't be able to properly gauge the work involved.

Never had a remodel box "pull out of the weak drywall"

 

[Hedges]

You mean for old wall gang boxes?

Do you have plaster/lath walls?

Old boxes, old house.
I've seen some indication of boards similar to sheetrock, but with holes that plaster (?) or cement squeezes through.
I think it is sheetrock thickness in some areas.
Others, where there is tile, about 1" of cement. That overlapped boxes slightly and I was able to chisel it flush so GFCI would fit.

Other properties I have encountered lath and plaster, but not here. This one, upstairs seems like sheetrock while ground floor and garage has more of a hand-tooled finish.

If wires weren't secured, I'd have some chance to tie new wire or something for pulling on them and pull through from box to basement. One outlet there was a wire run to water pipe where I think I could do that.

BX and metal boxes was the first thing I observed, yet even those they don't seem to provide continuity for ground.
I am now thinking that was just added circuits and maybe some upgraded circuits (found cut off knob and tube), but I think some circuits were not upgraded. I'd like to upgrade all if I can do that without tearing up walls. Otherwise, maybe AFCI breakers would be useful protection?

 

[Checkthisout]

Old boxes, old house.
I've seen some indication of boards similar to sheetrock, but with holes that plaster (?) or cement squeezes through.
I think it is sheetrock thickness in some areas.
Others, where there is tile, about 1" of cement. That overlapped boxes slightly and I was able to chisel it flush so GFCI would fit.

Other properties I have encountered lath and plaster, but not here. This one, upstairs seems like sheetrock while ground floor and garage has more of a hand-tooled finish.

If wires weren't secured, I'd have some chance to tie new wire or something for pulling on them and pull through from box to basement. One outlet there was a wire run to water pipe where I think I could do that.

BX and metal boxes was the first thing I observed, yet even those they don't seem to provide continuity for ground.
I am now thinking that was just added circuits and maybe some upgraded circuits (found cut off knob and tube), but I think some circuits were not upgraded. I'd like to upgrade all if I can do that without tearing up walls. Otherwise, maybe AFCI breakers would be useful protection?

The clamp style remodel boxes don't work that well on plaster walls due to thickness. This isn't written in stone, it just depends on the thickness of the wall. If you have plaster you can use the screw in remodel boxes and screw through the plaster into the lath or use the expanding screw thingies.

If sheetrock, you can remove base trim and cut drywall, drill through studs and fish wire along there and up into the cavities as needed.

You can go into the basement through the baseplate as you stated.

You can mutilate the old metal boxes with oscilatting tools, die grinders etc without making a big hole that requires repair...proctology but in some cases it's just too hard and you'll need to blow the drywall open and repair it afterwards. Lots of different ways to fix holes in sheetrock and plaster.

 

[GravelRider]

Yes of course you wouldn't do a whole house that way.

I think they are easier though.

Hold box up to wall, trace around it, use oscillating tool make opening, grab wire and pull into box, set box clamps and done.

Literally less than 5 minutes especially when compared to moving an outlet to clear a mirror, book case or whatever.

You probably just do the electrical stuff and not whole finished projects. Sparkys don't do sheetrock work so I can see why you wouldn't be able to properly gauge the work involved.

Never had a remodel box "pull out of the weak drywall"

I do everything on my own, not on a professional basis, but I've built a home addition, finished a basement, built a full bar, built a full pole barn with electric and water, solar projects, and plenty more. I can certainly properly gauge the work involved. I believe it is you who is not able to properly gauge the work involved. Installing the boxes before drywall, and then measuring and cutting is not hard work. In fact, I find it to be easier, faster, and of better quality to install it right the first time, rather than put in old work boxes later in new work. I just don't know why you're putting so much effort into convincing everyone that this is the right way. New construction = new work boxes. To convince people otherwise is baffling to me. If there is a good reason not to put the box in right away, than this is a reasonable alternative, but certainly not the preferred method.

But this is why I insist on always doing my own work. Too many contractors who do what's easier, not what's right. How many contractors have said "I've never had a [fill in the blank] fail" because they don't know and don't care about what happens a couple of years down the road when their hack jobs start falling apart.

 

[Checkthisout]

I do everything on my own, not on a professional basis, but I've built a home addition, finished a basement, built a full bar, built a full pole barn with electric and water, solar projects, and plenty more. I can certainly properly gauge the work involved. I believe it is you who is not able to properly gauge the work involved. Installing the boxes before drywall, and then measuring and cutting is not hard work. In fact, I find it to be easier, faster, and of better quality to install it right the first time, rather than put in old work boxes later in new work. I just don't know why you're putting so much effort into convincing everyone that this is the right way. New construction = new work boxes. To convince people otherwise is baffling to me. If there is a good reason not to put the box in right away, than this is a reasonable alternative, but certainly not the preferred method.

But this is why I insist on always doing my own work. Too many contractors who do what's easier, not what's right. How many contractors have said "I've never had a [fill in the blank] fail" because they don't know and don't care about what happens a couple of years down the road when their hack jobs start falling apart.

Have you had a remodel box fail?

New work vs old work boxes are not a matter of right or wrong. They are lateral in nature.

Old work boxes take 5 minutes to install and are easier for a novice and do not require knowing the exact final location. They can be shifted to accommodate countertops, cabinets, backsplash, bookshelves, trim etc during final install. They also lay flush on the finished surface so the equipment does not need any final shimming or box extenders to sit flush with the trim plate and be tight.
Not to mention how often the sheetrock is overcut. Remodel box immunizes you against the hassle of correcting that with shims or more drywall work.

So many benefits to everyone except the electrician who would much rather nail a box to a stud, pull wire and then come back after everyone else is done and do final connection.

 

[SparkyJJO]

Have you had a remodel box fail?

Yes I have seen it, particularly on poorly/rough cut holes where the drywall was crumbly on the edges.

 

[GravelRider]

Have you had a remodel box fail?

New work vs old work boxes are not a matter of right or wrong. They are lateral in nature.

Old work boxes take 5 minutes to install and are easier for a novice and do not require knowing the exact final location. They can be shifted to accommodate countertops, cabinets, backsplash, bookshelves, trim etc during final install. They also lay flush on the finished surface so the equipment does not need any final shimming or box extenders to sit flush with the trim plate and be tight.
Not to mention how often the sheetrock is overcut. Remodel box immunizes you against the hassle of correcting that with shims or more drywall work.

So many benefits to everyone except the electrician who would much rather nail a box to a stud, pull wire and then come back after everyone else is done and do final connection.

Yes, I have. Not one I installed. I had to fix it though.

Keep in mind, I'm not anti-old work box. I have a few that I personally have put in the house I currently live in. But, they're not "lateral in nature."

 

[Checkthisout]

Yes I have seen it, particularly on poorly/rough cut holes where the drywall was crumbly on the edges

Yeah, substrate integrity is important.

 

[Checkthisout]

But, they're not "lateral in nature."

If that's the case why did you use them if their use makes for inferior workmanship?

 

[GravelRider]

If that's the case why did you use them if their use makes for inferior workmanship?

I used the old work boxes on old work. I recognize they are inferior to stud-mounted new-work boxes, but was okay with the trade-off. But I didn't pretend they were just as good, and I sure as hell wasn't putting old work boxes in new work, when I can put in new work boxes more easily.

 

[mikeyoungvcu89]

I would also note that it is not to code to install a old-work box after the fact when you could have installed a proper box to a stud before the wall covering was installed. Old work box is legal ONLY where you would have to remove the wall covering that you wouldn't have otherwise. I only know because I did it once and failed an inspection.

 

[Checkthisout]

I used the old work boxes on old work. I recognize they are inferior to stud-mounted new-work boxes, but was okay with the trade-off. But I didn't pretend they were just as good, and I sure as hell wasn't putting old work boxes in new work, when I can put in new work boxes more easily.

Agree with everything you have said here except the part where you say there is a tradeoff.

 

[Checkthisout]

I would also note that it is not to code to install a old-work box after the fact when you could have installed a proper box to a stud before the wall covering was installed. Old work box is legal ONLY where you would have to remove the wall covering that you wouldn't have otherwise. I only know because I did it once and failed an inspection.

What was the code violation?

 

[Hedges]

I do old work frequently.
I find a stud with acoustic stud finder, trace box outline, cut hole in sheetrock, screw to stud.

I think the only difference is hole has to be as big as box. For new work, I mount a box (usually with stand-off wings for screws) and attach a mud ring. That means a bit more cubic inch. Some boxes hold switches/outlets without mud ring, allow a smaller hole.

I think this is just as strong.

I tend to only use old-work boxes that rely on rotate-out plastic wings for some things - phone/ethernet/coax jacks, and sometimes ceiling fixtures.

 

[Checkthisout]

I do old work frequently.
I find a stud with acoustic stud finder, trace box outline, cut hole in sheetrock, screw to stud.

I think the only difference is hole has to be as big as box. For new work, I mount a box (usually with stand-off wings for screws) and attach a mud ring. That means a bit more cubic inch. Some boxes hold switches/outlets without mud ring, allow a smaller hole.

I think this is just as strong.

I tend to only use old-work boxes that rely on rotate-out plastic wings for some things - phone/ethernet/coax jacks, and sometimes ceiling fixtures.

You probably already know you're not allowed to shoot screws through a normal box.

However, this style I guess would make all of us happy. Gravelrider, is this still inferior to doing the work before drywall?

Southwire Smart Box 1-Gang 22.5/c Adjustable Depth Device Box MSB22+ - The Home Depot

Designed with the electrician in mind. The Original Smart Boxes are unmatched in versatility in new work locations where you cannot swing a hammer or where final wall surfaces are uncertain, like kitchens

www.homedepot.com

 

[mikeyoungvcu89]

What was the code violation?

There are a couple, first an old work box is only 'Approved' for you guessed it 'Old Work' NOT new work. Inspectors can be particular about approved devices.. Second all the wiring needs to be inspected fully before the wall covering goes up. Boxes installed, romex run, stapled wires sheath stripped inside of the boxes and all grounds 'bonded' together with a mechanical device (not a wire nut). This is so the inspector can fully inspect everything that will not be visible after the wall covering goes up. By bypassing this, one could attempt to avoid inspection of most of the wiring.
Also, the next inspection (and final) would be with the covers on the boxes so they would never get to see the inside of the box including the stripped wires and ground bonds.

 

[SparkyJJO]

You probably already know you're not allowed to shoot screws through a normal box.

However, this style I guess would make all of us happy. Gravelrider, is this still inferior to doing the work before drywall?

Southwire Smart Box 1-Gang 22.5/c Adjustable Depth Device Box MSB22+ - The Home Depot

Designed with the electrician in mind. The Original Smart Boxes are unmatched in versatility in new work locations where you cannot swing a hammer or where final wall surfaces are uncertain, like kitchens

www.homedepot.com

I like those boxes as they're very rigid, but, they're not cheap. I have used a few though for outlet box replacements when I had to knock out the old box to run new wire, or expanding a box from single to double gang, for example.

I will admit I have run a screw through the side of an "old work" box into the adjacent stud to stabilize it when the drywall was too crumbly to hold even a switch in place. Technically not correct, but, I'm really not sure the logic why.