Why is solar so damn difficult?

[1201]

I'm no stranger to learning and diy. I built the house I'm living in with my two hands and it took a lot of planning and research - framing, electrical, HVAC , drywall, septic etc.

That was childs play compared to solar. No wonder the unsuspecting public easily falls prey to solar salespeople who are ,truly, the scum of the earth. they stand no chance. But I digress.


I've been researching solar day and night for close to a year and only just found out by accident that the victron rs450/100 which I was about to buy, is actually two 450/50 inputs and would not have worked for my needs, for example.

Solar has been the hardest thing I've ever had to learn about - ground neutral bonding, auto transformers, surge capacity, system sizing with voc and isc and parallel or series strings, over current protection electrical code , nec rules, temperature factors, mppt, ac coupling, DC coupling , zero export, inadvertent export,panel main bus rating, main breaker derating, line side taps.

Battery sizing, precharge resistors,closed loop communication, lifepo4 voltage and charging, cable protection, wire sizing, shunts, low temperature cutoff, charging rate.

Mounting rails, wire management, grounding, rapid shutdown requirements

And as if thats not bad enough- one mistake and you're blowing up expensive parts, or worse burning down your house. And even if you do everything right, the inverter might still fail and Good luck getting signature solar to actually replace anything under warranty.

Why am I even doing solar again? ??

 

[MisterSandals]

Why am I even doing solar again? ??

It’s called “solar” because all the good 4 letter words are taken.

 

[Tomthumb62]

Well it's still pretty much a niche market. Solar is more popular than ever before, which drives the component costs down (especially panels), which makes it even more popular. But the reality is people are addicted to the grid. They power EVERYTHING in their house via electrical power and in the cases of heating/cooling, this a massive amount of energy. They have gotten used to the comfort of a 65-85F climate controlled environment, regardless of whether it's -10F or 122F outside. The size and cost of a solar system to meet all their energy needs (off- or grid-tied) is just mind-boggling once people start to understand much much energy is costs to live their accustomed lifestyle.

I know a lovely couple who sold a small business and it netted them enough cash to build a tiny off-grid solar system 20 years ago. Back then, the cost was insane compared to how relatively inexpensively they could build a system today. I think they have about 800W of panels and a few lead-acid batteries. Their water is pumped very slowly during only daylight hours, into a cistern that is uphill from them, so their water pressure is all from gravity. They have no air conditioning nor electric heat. Temps are as cold as -30F (average of 15F) to as hot as 115F (average 92F). They heat with wood an propane. They are "active elderly" and every year it seems it gets harder for them to keep up with the physical labor of living off-grid.

Regular electrical stuff is "easier" because any licensed electrician worth their salt knows how to do that. And there's gazillions of books and self-taught home DIY electricians to help you learn or even a helpful neighbor just doing it for you. Solar would seem an obvious thing for a licensed electrician, but even a good one could miss details like you just discovered about the Victron device you were interested in.

 

[Hedges]

It's something like building a car from components Engine, Transmission, Differential, and Wheels.
Without understanding RPM, Foot-Pounds, Horsepower, gear ratio, limited slip, diameter, or miles per hour.

But once you know what the terms mean, and how to calculate conversions, most of it should fall into place.

 

[1201]

It's something like building a car from components Engine, Transmission, Differential, and Wheels.
Without understanding RPM, Foot-Pounds, Horsepower, gear ratio, limited slip, diameter, or miles per hour.

But once you know what the terms mean, and how to calculate conversions, most of it should fall into place.

I've done that. I used to drag race and have built engines, differentials, exhaust systems, fabrication, etc Never did transmission because I had a friend who was good at it.

That was easier than solar ?

 

[1201]

Well it's still pretty much a niche market. Solar is more popular than ever before, which drives the component costs down (especially panels), which makes it even more popular. But the reality is people are addicted to the grid. They power EVERYTHING in their house via electrical power and in the cases of heating/cooling, this a massive amount of energy. They have gotten used to the comfort of a 65-85F climate controlled environment, regardless of whether it's -10F or 122F outside. The size and cost of a solar system to meet all their energy needs (off- or grid-tied) is just mind-boggling once people start to understand much much energy is costs to live their accustomed lifestyle.

I know a lovely couple who sold a small business and it netted them enough cash to build a tiny off-grid solar system 20 years ago. Back then, the cost was insane compared to how relatively inexpensively they could build a system today. I think they have about 800W of panels and a few lead-acid batteries. Their water is pumped very slowly during only daylight hours, into a cistern that is uphill from them, so their water pressure is all from gravity. They have no air conditioning nor electric heat. Temps are as cold as -30F (average of 15F) to as hot as 115F (average 92F). They heat with wood an propane. They are "active elderly" and every year it seems it gets harder for them to keep up with the physical labor of living off-grid.

Regular electrical stuff is "easier" because any licensed electrician worth their salt knows how to do that. And there's gazillions of books and self-taught home DIY electricians to help you learn or even a helpful neighbor just doing it for you. Solar would seem an obvious thing for a licensed electrician, but even a good one could miss details like you just discovered about the Victron device you were interested in.

Yeah, I read three books on electrical and wired my house. There are hundreds of good electrical books out there. I don't know of any comprehensive books on solar

 

[Hedges]

I've done that. I used to drag race and have built engines, differentials, exhaust systems, fabrication, etc Never did transmission because I had a friend who was good at it.

That was easier than solar ?

Because that was your field.
Same goes for us EE types doing solar, but we still had to learn the unique aspects of the application.

My grandfather once overhauled the family car.
When he was finished, it had 1 speed forward and 3 speeds reverse.

Me, I just replaced timing belt on Civic. Earlier in the month, water pump and timing chain cover for Sable. After replacing a head & gasket, thinking the leak was the gasket, then a cracked head after it started blowing white "smoke" after a coolant leak sprayed on it. Both back to normal now. 300k and 200k, respectively.

 

[1201]

Because that was your field.

Nope, just a hobby same as solar. Had to get out though because that was a money hungry hobby with no payback.

My grandfather once overhauled the family car.
When he was finished, it had 1 speed forward and 3 speeds reverse.

???.

 

[Tomthumb62]

Yeah, I read three books on electrical and wired my house. There are hundreds of good electrical books out there. I don't know of any comprehensive books on solar

Because "solar" means so many different things, depending upon use case. Whereas "residential electrical" generally means to most in North America as 120v or 240v, 100-200A service, fed from the grid, which is standardized.

Solar:

12v or 24v? Or 48v? 96v?
Off-grid or grid-tied or hybrid?
Mobile/marine or stationary? Commercial?
Room/budget for a limited number of panels?
Permits or not?


Regular house electrical is just so much simpler than "solar" because it can mean so many different things. Hard to write a book that would cover it all and not just confuse a beginner and lead them to making dangerous/expensive mistakes.

And part of the appeal/popularity of solar is now the market is flooded with a lot of cheaper options. Some of which are decent, but a beginner is wont to get suckered by slick marketing campaigns for junk stuff instead doing the smart thing which is coming onto this forum and spending a year or more learning before buying any components, lol.

 

[WattMeWorry]

oh man don't get me started lol

batteries can have three voltages! threeeeeeee! at rest, under charge, under load... i was like watt?????

and then there's controllers - the damn witches!!! they can change the voltage (i think lol) to accommodate amperage ughhhhh

i feel your painnnnn ???

 

[Tulex]

For me, it's because the end result varies so much for people, it's hard to get a consensus. There are hundreds of variations that will work.
There are different concern levels. There are so many price levels. It's electric, which makes it a two faceted project. You have building code to consider. Add to that the fact that any time you have professional installation available, info is guarded. This forum kicks back hard though, so the info is on here.

I went with the Sol-Ark 15k because there was very little to figure out. The hardest thing was the batteries. I wanted to do DIY, so there was some learning there. But, I think today it's easier than ever.

 

[Tomthumb62]

oh man don't get me started lol

batteries can have three voltages! threeeeeeee! at rest, under charge, under load... i was like watt?????

and then there's controllers - the damn witches!!! they can change the voltage (i think lol) to accommodate amperage ughhhhh

i feel your painnnnn ???

lol, it will get easier with time. Sounds like your head is spinning right now, lol.

As for "charge controllers changing the voltage" yes but:

An MPPT charge controller can take higher volts (higher than needed to charge the battery) and basically convert those volts into more amps. Think of voltage as the TV channel and amps is the volume button. More amps = louder. If you've ever done car stereo stuff, you can hear this, literally. But a "12v" or "24v" charge controller won't be changing from 12v to 24v or anything like that on the output side. If you have a 12v battery (that needs say 14v to get charged), then if your charge controller outputs 24v, it will damage your battery. So it will change the voltage coming in to the charge controller from the solar panels, but it will only put out an appropriate voltage for the attached battery.

 

[1201]

Because "solar" means so many different things, depending upon use case. Whereas "residential electrical" generally means to most in North America as 120v or 240v, 100-200A service, fed from the grid, which is standardized.

Solar:

12v or 24v? Or 48v? 96v?
Off-grid or grid-tied or hybrid?
Mobile/marine or stationary? Commercial?
Room/budget for a limited number of panels?
Permits or not?


Regular house electrical is just so much simpler than "solar" because it can mean so many different things. Hard to write a book that would cover it all and not just confuse a beginner and lead them to making dangerous/expensive mistakes.

And part of the appeal/popularity of solar is now the market is flooded with a lot of cheaper options. Some of which are decent, but a beginner is wont to get suckered by slick marketing campaigns for junk stuff instead doing the smart thing which is coming onto this forum and spending a year or more learning before buying any components, lol.

The rules are also more confusing I think. For example- a string of panels of any amount does not require ocp. Two panels in parallel- no ocp. 2s2p, no ocp, but 3p requires ocp.

So many weird replies like that to keep track of.


I also think because of net metering , grid tie solar has been easy for so long. They have 600v inputs and you connect the output to the main panel. Done. It wouldn't surprise me if 95% of installs are grid tie with no battery.

Once you introduce batteries, and off grid inverters, and backup load panels, then the fun begins ?

 

[1201]

oh man don't get me started lol

batteries can have three voltages! threeeeeeee! at rest, under charge, under load... i was like watt?????

and then there's controllers - the damn witches!!! they can change the voltage (i think lol) to accommodate amperage ughhhhh

i feel your painnnnn ???

Yessss!!! And of course you also have to have three different charging modes - constant current, constant voltage and whatever the third one is(float?)

Not confusing at all

 

[1201]

For me, it's because the end result varies so much for people, it's hard to get a consensus. There are hundreds of variations that will work.
There are different concern levels. There are so many price levels. It's electric, which makes it a two faceted project. You have building code to consider. Add to that the fact that any time you have professional installation available, info is guarded. This forum kicks back hard though, so the info is on here.

I went with the Sol-Ark 15k because there was very little to figure out. The hardest thing was the batteries. I wanted to do DIY, so there was some learning there. But, I think today it's easier than ever.

The solark is easier than some others since it can grid tie but even then you still had to ensure that it could handle and surge loads you had, and probably have to think about not having a load imbalance and a host of other things to think about.

 

[Q-Dog]

I found it to be easy, so far. But I didn't start out trying to power a whole house. Running my small system for the past 2.5 years taught me a whole lot more than all the research I did before I bought my first solar panel.

And I followed the same standards as all of my other hobbies ... buy mid-tier or better gear with a known reputation.

 

[Oldphile]

Then throw in RSD (rapid shutdown). I'm struggling with an installer that doesn't understand TIGO CCA TAP. System is only at blind deployment stage and they say it's ready for inspection. Blind deployment means no RSD.

 

[zanydroid]

I don't think solar is particularly difficult against other kinds of engineering hobbies with comparable levels of free parameters in how you can design things.

It's simpler than rocket science or even doing the power engineering to a high degree of competence for one of the individual solar components.

DC and off-grid is at present probably more complex than what most residential contractors (different trades) are capable of dealing with. That is solvable by defining standard solutions (as Tesla does) and just stamping those out. And just rejecting customers that don't fit in those boxes.

I guess that means the way to simplify solar is to have a mental model that allows the degrees of freedom to be locked down. Like, Grid tie no battery is a case of that. Much simpler. At least from the POV of looking at newcomers to this forum, either a good flow chart to help them lock down the direction they should look at is lacking, or that is just fundamentally hard/impossible for a newcomer to apply even if it exists.

TBH the same applies to most engineering fields I've worked in. I'm not sure how it's simpler in mechanical engineering / automotive, but it sounds like it is based on some of the discussions above.

 

[Tomthumb62]

And I followed the same standards as all of my other hobbies ... buy mid-tier or better gear with a known reputation.

Just curious what your loads are and what you're using for a mid-tier charge controller?

 

[sunsurfer]

Going for a grid like experience, grid tie, overbearing codes, control/monitor from the moon, etc......thats what makes solar complicated.

I have charge controllers and inverters hooked to batteries. It works, its simple, you hook the red wire to the + and the black wire to the -. Not all solar has to be difficult.