Will just posted an excellent video, check it out.

[DerpsyDoodler]

I already acknowledged in my earlier post that one can calculate an ROI on a complete investment project (e.g. PV system, mining rigs etc). And yes I read those posts you suggested I didn't. Indeed I paraphrased the key point you make.

My apologies, I missed it.

Then you say this thread is not about whether using solar PV results in a better ROI than an alternative.

Absolutely. The topic of discussion was whether or not bitcoin mining returns could be included as ROI. Many strongly felt they couldn't (for some reason). Until that discussion or debate is settled, moving on with side-discussions or other red-herrings is unproductive, distractive, and confusing. I wasn't aware that you had agreed with me. It seemed like a consistent argument against it.

Who defined that restrictive discussion parameter?
Where does the thread title or OP say that?

Alternative A: the parameter is defined by what we were discussing. That's usually how conversations work.

Part of this thread picked up on discussion of the financial merits of investing in DIY solar PV/battery system.

I see. I never picked up on that part because it was red-herring to the original discussion.

A basic premise of assessing how much a solar PV system improves an ROI outcome over the alternative solution(s) is the true financial value to be assigned to that PV system.

Yes indeed, It's called cost benefit analysis, and it doesn't only apply to solar systems.

 

[Texas-Mark]

The topic of discussion was whether or not bitcoin mining returns could be included as ROI. Many strongly felt they couldn't (for some reason). Until that discussion or debate is settled, moving on with side-discussions or other red-herrings is unproductive, distractive, and confusing.

Bitcoin mining was not the original topic of the discussion, but only a part of the overall ROI discussion that some seemed to have gotten fixated on. IMO, discussing other ROI aspects is not unproductive, distractive, or confusing, given the general thread topic.

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

Bitcoin mining was not the original topic of the discussion, but only a part of the overall ROI discussion that some seemed to have gotten fixated on. IMO, discussing other ROI aspects is not unproductive, distractive, or confusing, given the general thread topic.

True (bolded). I disagree with the rest not because it shouldnt be discussed, but because let's finish the hung part of the discussion first. You're right, it was hung up because people didn't want to acknowledge that bitcoin can and should be counted as ROI. Which is pretty way off base. How can you move on with anything else if a fundamental part of understanding the topic accurately does not exist? it's a broken base of knowledge. you can pile stuff on it but it'll be a house of cards. nothing will be square and it won't be safe. Or, in the case of a conversation based progressing around a broken base of knowledge, the discussion will amount to rubbish or misinformation.

 

[wattmatters]

Yes indeed, It's called cost benefit analysis, and it doesn't only apply to solar systems.

It seems then we have been in furious agreement all along.

 

[anadiner]

How much KWh would one need from your wonderful system to blow away the clouds that I have 300 days a year, Will?

Doing ROI calculations without the climate data is just silly, you mentioned several time the different local electricity cost, but not a single time the average weather conditions not mentioning a single time other constraints like shadows.
Worse, you pointed out the KWh one would get "every single day". Really?
Sorry, Mr Prowse, I won't follow you in that commercial!

And all these panels get mounted without any frames and any basement? (that easily cost more than the panels they carry)...

Readers, please have a look at my signature:
You get realistic models to evaluate your off-grid system including calculating the average SOC of the battery, the -tremendous- value of wasted energy during summer time and the number of days you will stay freezing with no juice out the sockets in winter with an empty battery.

I stopped watching at prices he paid. Joke right? Good luck finding that inverter for $1500. Santan used panels r false advertised and shipping cost is times 2~3 price of pallet panels. Wiring $200. Thats 1 reel not including solder nor connectors.

Oh and man I would jump all over 440w panels around $100 each.

Wheres is he getting all this great stuff at blow-ur-mind prices that are definitely not in the real world? I would seriously like to know.

 

[anadiner]

Even If you live in a blessed region where you can count on a average of 5.5 hours on sun a day, that will not mean that you get 5,5 times the tag power value every day and -being off grid- that you even can use it.
Once the batteries are full, if you get more than you are consuming, you just waste potential energy.

Think he bases results on panel test lab results with highest efficiency. Unrealistic for us average folk trying to DIY.

His array of 440w panels perfectly aligned is when I realized how owned this guy is.

So honestly, I pay him no mind. Watched maybe 3 youtubes of him then moved on when the BS started slinging. IE claimed no permit needed on ground mount and never heard word about UL Listed products.

 

[rin67630]

I agree. I used to buy Craftsman tools when they actually had some quality and a lifetime guarantee. However, i found that most of them rarely got used. Now if I need a tool I may only use once in a while I just buy one at HF for 1/4 the price, and if it ever does break (hasn't happened yet) I can buy another one and still be ahead of the game. Low cost does not always mean low quality.

As for the solar related stuff, most of it most likely comes out of the same factories no matter whose name is stamped on it.

The current definition of "quality" is "matches the specifications from the management".
That means mostly "should not break before warranty expires, but shortly after".

 

[Supervstech]

I stopped watching at prices he paid. Joke right? Good luck finding that inverter for $1500. Santan used panels r false advertised and shipping cost is times 2~3 price of pallet panels. Wiring $200. Thats 1 reel not including solder nor connectors.

Oh and man I would jump all over 440w panels around $100 each.

Wheres is he getting all this great stuff at blow-ur-mind prices that are definitely not in the real world? I would seriously like to know.

I don’t think you actually watched his video… he in no way ever said he paid $100 for 440W panels… please rewatch the video and use a calculator when he doles out the prices…

 

[Supervstech]

Think he bases results on panel test lab results with highest efficiency. Unrealistic for us average folk trying to DIY.

His array of 440w panels perfectly aligned is when I realized how owned this guy is.

So honestly, I pay him no mind. Watched maybe 3 youtubes of him then moved on when the BS started slinging. IE claimed no permit needed on ground mount and never heard word about UL Listed products.

Lab results? No, he is luckily in Las Vegas Nevada… quite a lot of sun there…

 

[anadiner]

I don’t think you actually watched his video… he in no way ever said he paid $100 for 440W panels… please rewatch the video and use a calculator when he doles out the prices…

I stopped watching early. He listed some prices and I felt nausea... thought he said something about $4500 for those panels.

But yes, I may have that wrong. Was aggravated at $1500 inverter, ripoff Santan poke and $200 wire. (Ive been cable and panel shopping for weeks so hit a nerve)

 

[Supervstech]

I stopped watching early. He listed some prices and I felt nausea... thought he said something about $4500 for those panels.

But yes, I may have that wrong. Was aggravated at $1500 inverter, ripoff Santan poke and $200 wire. (Ive been cable and panel shopping for weeks so hit a nerve)

Gawd yeah… buying this stuff is racking to be sure. I shop Craigslist, and eBay for deals… sometimes ya gotta buy the pricy stuff… his links in his videos usually have sources and prices.
Them used 250W panels for $50 each plus shipping are a great deal though…

 

[wattmatters]

I stopped watching early. He listed some prices and I felt nausea...

While I feel your pain on prices (as they are not the same everywhere), the video was in response to people asking Will how much the system he built cost him. That is literally the first thing he says in the video.

It wasn't a video saying that's how much it would cost anybody else.

He gave the prices he paid, or estimated based on his existing stock of kit and rounded up in most cases. It was a fair assessment of the cost of that specific system. He also outlined for him the payback period based on the energy not bought from the grid at the prices of grid power in his area.

Whether you could build the same system where you are for the same money is totally different question. Like you there's no hope where I am of sourcing cable for that low of a price. But that doesn't invalidate Will's video which was specifically about his system.

And just because he hasn't mounted his panels doesn't invalidate it either. It was about his specific system.

 

[Supervstech]

FYI, the inverters he used in his video description are only slightly more than his video showed…

 

[Supervstech]

And that inverter has some really cool features… no battery needed, and configurable zero grid feedback! I will likely get a few of them once I get building something reasonable at my house

 

[wattmatters]

But what drives me nuts is the mounting which has the distribution panel hanging off the edge of the Hardie board ?. It triggers the small OCD part of my brain. Could the inverters and panel not be somewhat symmetrically mounted? It would look so much better.

 

[Supervstech]

But what drives me nuts is the mounting which has the distribution panel hanging off the edge of the Hardie board ?. It triggers the small OCD part of my brain. Could the inverters and panel not be somewhat symmetrically mounted? It would look so much better.

Oh no… now we have a design layout critic!

It took me a minute to see what you meant… yup… the panel sitting off the edge like that looks odd. Oh well.

 

[Supervstech]

I stopped watching early. He listed some prices and I felt nausea... thought he said something about $4500 for those panels.

But yes, I may have that wrong. Was aggravated at $1500 inverter, ripoff Santan poke and $200 wire. (Ive been cable and panel shopping for weeks so hit a nerve)

And, yup… $4500 for 10,000W of those panels is accurate… $218 each…

 

[wattmatters]

Oh no… now we have a design layout critic!

Just in case it wasn't already obvious, it was a comment made in jest.

 

[DerpsyDoodler]

I stopped watching early. He listed some prices and I felt nausea... thought he said something about $4500 for those panels.

But yes, I may have that wrong. Was aggravated at $1500 inverter, ripoff Santan poke and $200 wire. (Ive been cable and panel shopping for weeks so hit a nerve)

I paid a little less than $1500 for my samlex evo 4024 inverter plus remote, shipped. When I saw your post, I thought you were talking about someone else. If you're in doubt. watch the rest of Will's videos. I believe he does his best to tell it like it is.