Schneider xw pro 6848 not powering up with eg4 lithium battery

[Koldsimer]

I received my (3) EG4 LL batteries today. Picked them up from the R&L shipping dock, only minor damage to one handle, so I went ahead and installed all of them in my custom made rack and hooked them up.

I turned on the BMS "small switch", on each battery and verified all the voltages was close "they was". The batteries are networked and ID's set.

Flipped the main breaker on the 1st battery and almost instantly the Schneider XW6848 Pro went thru its startup sequence. Followed by turning breakers on remaining batteries. NO issue with power up, it came online like normal.

It appears to be working normally with the EG4 LL batteries. I know this isn't much help with you guys with the EG4 LifePower4 (NO LCD) batteries, but I told everyone I would share my results with them hooked to my Schneider XW Pro 6848.

Picture of them installed in my custom rack I made and everything powered up and ready to run.

Thanks for the update and glad to see you didn't have any issue with the "upgraded" batteries.

 

[Koldsimer]

I’m thinking the problem was the precharge resistor circuit and delay timing.

Not sure if that part is the same in both batteries.

IIRC @Koldsimer also updated his Schneider firmware during the ordeal which could be another possible variable.

I tried starting after the firmware update and had the same issue in every scenario. Batteries will not start without a "jump" of some sort.

 

[MrM1]

This is going to suck if they don’t find a work around. solar place that I bought my Magnum from emailed today and said it has shipped. Also tracked the batteries and they are on the move again.

I was hoping that all this stuff shows up and I can get it installed sooner then later. My wife and I have been living off grid on our new property for the last 3 months. Only using a Chins 12.8v 300ah battery a 1500w Amazon inverter and a Honda eu2000 powering a 30amp Victron blue charger. We have a larger generator that powers our well pump when needed.

It will be interesting to see if the EG4 Lifepowers have trouble with the Magnum as well. I would say it's a 50/50 chance they will.

I still think @Koldsimer updating the firmware in the XW had nothing to do with it.

But @Koldsimer did you finally get it going using an external resistor? I'm curious if that would fool the internal resistor and bms into not shutting down. If it works it would for sure be worth knowing and at least b a good backup plan.

But whatever you did to get it going, I'd make sure I could duplicate it and have the steps written down for future reference.

Worse case if this whole ordeal goes really badly is, you have a nice case and some cells. You could open them up, gut everything and just replace the BMSs with the Heltec BMS. A last ditch, Sig Solar went vapor plan, but it would work and you'd not be out a fortune.

 

[MrM1]

I'm too much of a control freak micro manager. I need a battery / bms with Bluetooth and total user programability. If any ones goes to blow my batteries up, it's Going to be me

 

[Koldsimer]

Went under the house to have a peek at the batteries to make sure everything is ok. It's not. One of the four batteries had a red alarm light lit solid and was not functioning.

 

[Mr-Sandman]

My thoughts on this:

1. Signature Solar stated the EG4 LL "LCD model" and CURRENT EG4 LifePower4 "Non-LCD Model" do NOT share the same BMS, but share the same battery pack.

2. It's REALLY terrible if Signature Solar indeed changed the BMS in the new stock of EG4 "LifePower4" models to one that is incompatible with their other rack batteries. Compatibility of BMS communications on THEIR batteries should be published and disclosed on the website for the products. PERIOD!!!! People will be buying more of these to add to their systems, unknowing they will not talk to the batteries they already bought from them. If this is true, shame on them!

3. Signature Solar REALLY needs to work on their customer relations and communications. I know they are crazy busy right now and covid is not helping anything, but if they continue down this path that problem will fix itself as people start avoiding doing business with them. Reputation AND Support means a lot to the DIY customers! They should have one or more people dedicated to customer communications.

4. Finally Signature Solar has a chance to shine here, they need to fix the startup issue the EG4 "LifePower4" batteries have with some inverters. This needs done ASAP! Whatever it takes, BMS software update, New batteries, whatever it takes!!!

5. I shouldn't have had to spend the extra $$ to upgrade to the EG4 LL battery just to avoid the issue with the LifePower4 models. I chose to out of frustration, because I really needed the batteries and had been waiting so long.

 

[Koldsimer]

Multiple people having the same exact problem as pointed out by @robby ....

Lifepower4 24v and MPP Solar LV2424 issue

Hi, I received one of two of the long back ordered Signature Solar EG4 24v batteries. When I replaced the lead acid batteries with the new battery to my MPP LV2424, it starts to fire up, then shuts down right away. I hear a little tick, tick, tick noise until I breaker off the battery. The...

diysolarforum.com

 

[MrM1]

Multiple people having the same exact problem as pointed out by @robby ....

Lifepower4 24v and MPP Solar LV2424 issue

Hi, I received one of two of the long back ordered Signature Solar EG4 24v batteries. When I replaced the lead acid batteries with the new battery to my MPP LV2424, it starts to fire up, then shuts down right away. I hear a little tick, tick, tick noise until I breaker off the battery. The...

diysolarforum.com

Seems like it's time to ask for an RMA with pre paid shipping

 

[robby]

2. It's REALLY terrible if Signature Solar indeed changed the BMS in the new stock of EG4 "LifePower4" models to one that is incompatible with their other rack batteries. Compatibility of BMS communications on THEIR batteries should be published and disclosed on the website for the products. PERIOD!!!! People will be buying more of these to add to their systems, unknowing they will not talk to the batteries they already bought from them. If this is true, shame on them!

This
Just like the David Poz video once again full disclosure is lacking by Signature Solar. Close loop battery communication is the way of the future, so if your buying batteries in stages and are not told they changed the BMS in a latest batch your pretty much SOL. They really don't have to refund you any money or take back the product as they never guaranteed it would work with your older batteries. Even if they do take them back who is going to pay the shipping?
This compatibility issue is something that should be made clear in advance of any sales.

On a positive note I am pretty sure the startup issue can be solved by just putting the right sized electrolytic capacitor across the input side of your external 48V breaker or Switch. I went into more detail in my previous post.

 

[Scott Martinez]

Have you tried lead-acid parallel with lithium?
Or, power up with lead-acid, parallel with lithium, disconnect lead-acid.

But make sure the lithium (and fuse) works. Try powering some load with it. e.g. four automotive light head or tail light bulbs.

I was able to get around this with the two 24v EG4s. It looks very much like the pre-load resister is the culprit. I hope @Signature Solar is able to come up with a better solution.

 

[SpongeboB Sinewave]

My thoughts on this:

1. Signature Solar stated the EG4 LL "LCD model" and CURRENT EG4 LifePower4 "Non-LCD Model" do NOT share the same BMS, but share the same battery pack.

2. It's REALLY terrible if Signature Solar indeed changed the BMS in the new stock of EG4 "LifePower4" models to one that is incompatible with their other rack batteries. Compatibility of BMS communications on THEIR batteries should be published and disclosed on the website for the products. PERIOD!!!! People will be buying more of these to add to their systems, unknowing they will not talk to the batteries they already bought from them. If this is true, shame on them!

3. Signature Solar REALLY needs to work on their customer relations and communications. I know they are crazy busy right now and covid is not helping anything, but if they continue down this path that problem will fix itself as people start avoiding doing business with them. Reputation AND Support means a lot to the DIY customers! They should have one or more people dedicated to customer communications.

4. Finally Signature Solar has a chance to shine here, they need to fix the startup issue the EG4 "LifePower4" batteries have with some inverters. This needs done ASAP! Whatever it takes, BMS software update, New batteries, whatever it takes!!!

5. I shouldn't have had to spend the extra $$ to upgrade to the EG4 LL battery just to avoid the issue with the LifePower4 models. I chose to out of frustration, because I really needed the batteries and had been waiting so long.

I think the problem with all this is that Signature Solar does not design and manufacturer their own BMS's. They may not be able to modify the surge over-current time and level. Please, Signature Solar, correct me if I am wrong. It is hard to say from their web site and videos how this all works

But if S.S. puts the BMS and battery system together, they may be able to mate up a BMS that has a higher instantaneous current limit rating.
I do not see a surge rating on their specs. Continuous discharge is, I think, 200 amps and recommended is 60 amps.

Charging a capacitor like these inverters use can draw hundreds of amps momentarily. Might be difficult to get that protection just right, and for all of these different inverters too. But, it must work. Some pre-charging can help but I don't think that one resistor value is going to work for all inverters out there.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Capacitor_charging_Current_and_Voltage_Graph.png

And "Closed loop" inverter/charger to BMS is a great thing but I don't think it is something that can help with something like this. It might help to let the BMS what to expect though the next time it turns on ?

 

[robby]

I think the problem with all this is that Signature Solar does not design and manufacturer their own BMS's. They may not be able to modify the surge over-current time and level. Please, Signature Solar, correct me if I am wrong. It is hard to say from their web site and videos how this all works

But if S.S. puts the BMS and battery system together, they may be able to mate up a BMS that has a higher instantaneous current limit rating.
I do not see a surge rating on their specs. Continuous discharge is, I think, 200 amps and recommended is 60 amps.

Charging a capacitor like these inverters use can draw hundreds of amps momentarily. Might be difficult to get that protection just right, and for all of these different inverters too. But, it must work. Some pre-charging can help but I don't think that one resistor value is going to work for all inverters out there.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Capacitor_charging_Current_and_Voltage_Graph.png

And "Closed loop" inverter/charger to BMS is a great thing but I don't think it is something that can help with something like this. It might help to let the BMS what to expect though the next time it turns on ?

Updated With New Info:
I looked at Will's video again and noticed a few things.
It could be a monitoring the output voltage, there is a circuit board with a relay switching on the large Resistor which I think is a 60W resistor. The Resistors other side has a wire which looks like it runs to a ground lug. There are two thin wires that seem to run from the Circuit Breaker to the BMS and two wires from the relay board that run to the BMS, its safe to assume those two power on the relay. I suspect the BMS looks for a drop in voltage on the output as the Inverter is turned on and when the voltage rises back to a certain value it then knows that the capacitors in the inverter are charged and it switches off the Pre Charge Relay and turns on the Main FETs to supply the full battery power. I suspect certain Inverters just error out on the low voltage before the caps can charge.

It also could be a timer circuit on the BMS and I would assume it is also triggered by seeing a low resistance on the output as the Inverter is switched on and then waits X amount of seconds for the caps to charge and then switches off the Pre Charge relay. I think the eFlex batteries I have use a system like that, as the tech I talked to mentioned that if the Inverter ever fails to start I should try toggling the battery power a second or third time.

I am kind of hoping that @Will Prowse will use this opportunity to put a Oscilloscope on the battery output and see what the voltage is doing when it is switched on to the Inverter. It should make for a very informative video.

 

[Koldsimer]

Seems like it's time to ask for an RMA with pre paid shipping

I give up. After missing multiple days of work, between the many hours on the phone with tech and doing online research, i'm done trying things on my own. I have gone far beyond what the average user should be expected to do to make something advertised and sold as "plug and play" work.

It's been nearly 3 weeks since i picked these batteries up and installed them. Still not working right.

It's time for @Signature Solar @signaturesolarrichard @SignatureSolarUS to step up and do something. They said they would make this right and I have tried to be patient but it is running thin. Unfortunately, I have no other options at this point. I invested everything I have into these batteries- they have to make this right.

We all know they ordered a Schneider for testing but they have already acknowledged that they extended the time for the resistor and that is the problem that is keeping me from reliably starting my inverter. I have no idea what they expect to do or find out but how would i know? they haven't contacted me directly in well over a week. They know i have this issue and it seems many others are seeing similar issues- but they don't even have someone keeping me and others informed besides what they have offered here.

All this after being told multiple times they will work no problem.

It's important for everyone to understand that I did tons of research before buying these batteries. I wanted to make sure the company i invested in was the right choice for my familys future. I watched all the Will Prowse and David Poz videos, i read lots of threads on this site and others. I considered many other brands- Pacific Algorithms, Big Battery, Electric Car Parts, Rosen, Jakiper... I even considered ordering from the made in china site or alibaba. But a couple things kept steering me towards Signature- they were local and they seemed to get good reviews overall. I figured how could i go wrong?

I had pretty much decided on the eg4 lifepowers but I wanted to check the shop out in person to make sure they were legit. My dad and i drove up to Sulpher Springs to check out Signature Solar. We were really excited to find them- we had spent $40k+ on our systems with a different company in 2020 and we were hoping we had found our new source for all things solar.

I had talked to James on the phone several times over the past year and he was always friendly and knowledgeable, so I wanted to meet him. He was busy but i talked to Michael, their lead tech. I specifically asked him if these would work with my equipment. He said no problem, they have plenty of customers using schneider, midnite etc.. I made my purchase in person that day thinking in the off chance something is not right, surely they will take care of me.

It feels like a bad dream at this point...

 

[MrM1]

I give up. After missing multiple days of work, between the many hours on the phone with tech and doing online research, i'm done trying things on my own. I have gone far beyond what the average user should be expected to do to make something advertised and sold as "plug and play" work.

It's been nearly 3 weeks since i picked these batteries up and installed them. Still not working right.

It's time for @Signature Solar @signaturesolarrichard @SignatureSolarUS to step up and do something. They said they would make this right and I have tried to be patient but it is running thin. Unfortunately, I have no other options at this point. I invested everything I have into these batteries- they have to make this right.

We all know they ordered a Schneider for testing but they have already acknowledged that they extended the time for the resistor and that is the problem that is keeping me from reliably starting my inverter. I have no idea what they expect to do or find out but how would i know? they haven't contacted me directly in well over a week. They know i have this issue and it seems many others are seeing similar issues- but they don't even have someone keeping me and others informed besides what they have offered here.

All this after being told multiple times they will work no problem.

It feels like a bad dream at this point

You quoted my return idea. Is that something you're going to do, or is it not an option?

 

[MrM1]

Sorry you're having to go through all this. I know the feeling. I went through a similar ordeal with batteries for most of last year

 

[Hedges]

It is an engineering problem, made more difficult having products from multiple companies that need to work together.
Best a company like Signature Solar could do is buy popular inverters, test each battery/inverter pair together repeatedly, publish a table of which configurations work, which don't.
And document different versions of their products, like when BMS model is changed.

Resistor precharge is what many people use. That produces exponential charge curve into capacitor.
BMS with its MOSFETs could be designed to deliver a constant-current ramp of say 10A or 50A, then when output voltage reaches battery voltage, turn MOSFET on hard with full gate voltage. Then send a "power good" signal on a pin, and by communication bus.
The inverter needs to stay off, or at least draw minimal power, until BMS has turned MOSFET fully on, minimizing V x I = W dissipated in MOSFET.

To work with inverters having no communication or control, the precharge has to complete fast enough.
Difficulty of design is that the higher the MOSFET current (the faster the precharge), the more power it dissipates. Drawing 100A when only 0.1V drop across MOSFET due to its resistance would be 10W, which can be handled by heatsink. Drawing just 10A during precharge, it has 50V initially (500W), and when inverter capacitors reach 40V, it still has 10A x (50V - 40V) = 100W dissipation.
So slower precharge is preferred, but absolutely has to complete before inverter starts drawing 100A continuous.

I've seen designs, all belonging to one company, which had this problem. When power turned on, MOSFET was used to ramp up output voltage precharging capacitors. But the boards being driven turned on their switching power supplies when input voltage came up. Should have been when high enough (e.g. 24V +/-2V) but was earlier. Even that isn't good enough - turning on when supply reached 22V because precharge hasn't reached 24V burned up the FETs.

BMS with programmable precharge ramp rate would let it be configured for a wider range of inverters.
DIY users ignoring precharge in battery by adding a second precharge and switch between battery and inverter might make it work. Additional caps (e.g. supercaps) could be part of that.

 

[Jack Rabbit Off Grid]

It looks like to me they were mostly designed to work with Growatts not true heavy duty commercial inverters.

I was reassured by one of the technicians yesterday they will work with Magnum. Time will tell.

if I would have known all this 3 months ago when I ordered them I would have ordered the batteries with the little screen. The only reason I didn’t is because I’m not techie. I don’t care about fiddling with stuff. When I asked do I really need a laptop and all the gizmos the sales rep replied no just install and use if your not into that stuff. I was also assured then they would work with a Magnum. I don’t even own a laptop.
I really do hope they work for me because I’m sick of living off one Chins and a 1500w Amazon inverter. Evertime I need to flush the toilet I have to go start the generator or use the microwave start the generator. Cannot run the microwave with the refrigerator so I have to unplug that. It’s getting old quick 3 months of this.

 

[Koldsimer]

It looks like to me they were mostly designed to work with Growatts not true heavy duty commercial inverters.

I was reassured by one of the technicians yesterday they will work with Magnum. Time will tell.

if I would have known all this 3 months ago when I ordered them I would have ordered the batteries with the little screen. The only reason I didn’t is because I’m not techie. I don’t care about fiddling with stuff. When I asked do I really need a laptop and all the gizmos the sales rep replied no just install and use if your not into that stuff. I was also assured then they would work with a Magnum. I don’t even own a laptop.
I really do hope they work for me because I’m sick of living off one Chins and a 1500w Amazon inverter. Evertime I need to flush the toilet I have to go start the generator or use the microwave start the generator. Cannot run the microwave with the refrigerator so I have to unplug that. It’s getting old quick 3 months of this.

@HighCountryBill has a magnum 4000 and they experienced the same issues starting. They are also now having issues with random alarm lights and batteries turning themselves off for no reason, just like me. I wouldn't count on them working properly.

 

[robby]

@HighCountryBill has a magnum 4000 and they experienced the same issues starting. They are also now having issues with random alarm lights and batteries turning themselves off for no reason, just like me. I wouldn't count on them working properly.

Now your getting me worried.
Random turning Off and On is on a whole different level of problem than a start up issue.

 

[Mr-Sandman]

I SURE hope Signature Solar can provide a firmware update that is user installable to fix these issues. I can't even imagine the impact of having to accept returns on all those batteries that are or will be having issues when they finally ship.