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Power of lightning

BarracudaBob said:
UPS acted like your surge arrestor. Took one for the team
Click to expand...
True. And I believe that if it had not been grounded, it would have been safe and would not have needed to take the hit.

I would truly like to know how things could have been better with a grounded system. Would I have been safer if I had somehow grounded more properly? If so, what did I miss, and how should I have grounded everything?

I'm not even sure if these questions are answerable or just rhetorical.
 
Norwasian said:
I would truly like to know how things could have been better with a grounded system.
Click to expand...
Hard to tell without schematic diagram of your system. In your specific case adding that ground rod the way you did likely caused more damage than without it. Does not mean that grounding is bad in general.
 
AntronX said:
Hard to tell without schematic diagram of your system. In your specific case adding that ground rod the way you did likely caused more damage than without it. Does not mean that grounding is bad in general.
Click to expand...
Just remember that your ground rod is little different from those fence posts in that picture you posted. It connects to the ground in the very same manner, and is thus exposed in the very same manner. I didn't like having the "sparks" ascending from the ground into my equipment, and have followed isolationist policies ever since, to good effect. I have yet to be burned for not grounding.

OPINION AGAIN: For those who are connected to the grid, which is already grounded, the best they can do is to ground some more--anywhere and everywhere. Thus, there are two separate philosophies--incompatible with each other--that vie for attention: all-grounded, or all-isolated. Both must be done in totality for it to work. It is when some system does a partial implementation of one or the other, or tries to mix the two systems in some manner, that problems arise when the lightning strikes.
 
BarracudaBob said:
don't use the Ethernet coming off the antenna as the lightning path going into the house then the modem where it plugs in the wall outlet. That will get cooked. You need to ground the ethernet via surge suppressor at the pole that is tied back to utility ground. Pole, ethernet surge arrestor, and utility ground (main house ground) are all at the same potential.
Click to expand...

I may be wrong but your saying may be why my wifi and the other grey box keep getting fried..5 times now…..everytime we have a close lightning strike anywhere near me..

DISCLIMER: This is not my work…this was all done by “ professional “ people who charge a lot…!

.the internet equipment is all in my tool shed ( hooked up by the high priced phone Co dude) .

the shed and it’s sub panel is wired 70 ft back to the main house ( by a high priced electrician) .

The shed sub panel does NOT have a seperate grounding electrode but is grounded back to the house main system underground with the other wires…

..The phone internet equipment is plugged into the sheds electric service inside the shed at an outlet.

There is a green phone utility box directly under the utility power pole about 30 feet from the shed which feeds underground wire directly to the internet box in the shed . It is not wired to the subpanel , just the internet gear.

I “suspect” but am not positive the green phone co box wire feeding my internet gear is tied to a ground rod or an equivalent out by by the utility pole..
.I DO know the internet gear also is plugged into the ac outlet tied back to the main house though the shed sub panel and has a totally different ground electrode than the green box
100 ft apart…

When lightning ( or a surge is present) it always seems to come in on the line from the green box (fry the phone gear)… take out my wireless router , ..go into to the ac outlet ,trip the gfic circuit at that outlet and stop without and damage past the outlet.. everytime.. no damage but to internet gear..

Is two shared seperate grounds connected to one system the problem…?

IS the phone wire coming out of the green utility box , ( as you said) acting as an antenna bringing in the surge into the phone/ internet gear the issue..?

Why is the GFIC always trip .? I thought that was for imbalance between the hit and nuetral..?

The only other thing I can mention that “might” be an issue is my “high priced electrician” left all the neutrals and ground wires still bonded at the shed subpanel when the shed was moved here from a standalone location.. (multiple nuetral/ ground points ) ..they were never separated at the bussbars or the green screw..

That was before I got into solar and learned a little about bonding

Oh and by the way My high priced electrician ran off and disappeared ..!

As you suggested in your comment If I did put a SPD on the system, where would you even hook it to..the phone company’s green green box outside …?
also which ground would you choose .(.ha ha ha ) to connect it to…?

Like I said , I did none of this work …..When I do stuff it generally works right…and it doesn’t blow up once a year.

J.
 
JRH said:
I may be wrong but your saying may be why my wifi and the other grey box keep getting fried..5 times now…..everytime we have a close lightning strike anywhere near me..

DISCLIMER: This is not my work…this was all done by “ professional “ people who charge a lot…!

.the internet equipment is all in my tool shed ( hooked up by the high priced phone Co dude) .

the shed and it’s sub panel is wired 70 ft back to the main house ( by a high priced electrician) .

The shed sub panel does NOT have a seperate grounding electrode but is grounded back to the house main system underground with the other wires…

..The phone internet equipment is plugged into the sheds electric service inside the shed at an outlet.

There is a green phone utility box directly under the utility power pole about 30 feet from the shed which feeds underground wire directly to the internet box in the shed . It is not wired to the subpanel , just the internet gear.

I “suspect” but am not positive the green phone co box wire feeding my internet gear is tied to a ground rod or an equivalent out by by the utility pole..
.I DO know the internet gear also is plugged into the ac outlet tied back to the main house though the shed sub panel and has a totally different ground electrode than the green box
100 ft apart…

When lightning ( or a surge is present) it always seems to come in on the line from the green box (fry the phone gear)… take out my wireless router , ..go into to the ac outlet ,trip the gfic circuit at that outlet and stop without and damage past the outlet.. everytime.. no damage but to internet gear..

Is two shared seperate grounds connected to one system the problem…?

IS the phone wire coming out of the green utility box , ( as you said) acting as an antenna bringing in the surge into the phone/ internet gear the issue..?

Why is the GFIC always trip .? I thought that was for imbalance between the hit and nuetral..?

The only other thing I can mention that “might” be an issue is my “high priced electrician” left all the neutrals and ground wires still bonded at the shed subpanel when the shed was moved here from a standalone location.. (multiple nuetral/ ground points ) ..they were never separated at the bussbars or the green screw..

That was before I got into solar and learned a little about bonding

Oh and by the way My high priced electrician ran off and disappeared ..!

As you suggested in your comment If I did put a SPD on the system, where would you even hook it to..the phone company’s green green box outside …?
also which ground would you choose .(.ha ha ha ) to connect it to…?

Like I said , I did none of this work …..When I do stuff it generally works right…and it doesn’t blow up once a year.

J.
Click to expand...
If I were in your shoes, having already experienced so many failures, I would invest in a new system: fiber optic. If you connected your outbuilding's network with your house's network via a fiber optic line, it would simply be impossible for lightning to travel through it. You would still need proper lightning protection at the outbuilding, of course, but at least any damage there would stop there.

On the other hand, I eschew grounding in favor of isolationism, so take my perspective with a grain of salt. Isolating has yet to sting me, though. :)
 
Norwasian said:
If I were in your shoes, having already experienced so many failures, I would invest in a new system: fiber optic. If you connected your outbuilding's network with your house's network via a fiber optic line, it would simply be impossible for lightning to travel through it. You would still need proper lightning protection at the outbuilding, of course, but at least any damage there would stop there.

On the other hand, I eschew grounding in favor of isolationism, so take my perspective with a grain of salt. Isolating has yet to sting me, though. :)
Click to expand...
To my best guess my system is Fiber optics…has been for years… if the cable isn’t conductive, somthing else is…..and it’s connected to the internet gear…as it’s the only thing that gets fried..
Thanks
J.
 
JRH said:
I may be wrong but your saying may be why my wifi and the other grey box keep getting fried..5 times now…..every time we have a close lightning strike anywhere near me..
Click to expand...
Classic lighting issues with a difference of potential between two different services. If you have power out in the shed make sure you have some form of of surge arrestor that ties the phone to the shed AND main utility ground. It could be the neutral or Ground (MUCH BETTER) coming to the shed. That nice long wire going to the shed makes a great antenna to pick up all kinds of pulses & surges.

The fiber idea or WiFi VOIP is a great idea if you can do it.
 
Norwasian said:
True. And I believe that if it had not been grounded, it would have been safe and would not have needed to take the hit.

I would truly like to know how things could have been better with a grounded system. Would I have been safer if I had somehow grounded more properly? If so, what did I miss, and how should I have grounded everything?

I'm not even sure if these questions are answerable or just rhetorical.
Click to expand...
Tested, written about in detailed studies, in the code, and tower books. No mystery on what you need to do.
Having separate ground rods not tied together won't solve a thing. There are more complaints on ham radio about grounding than anything else. Everybody is an expert without reading a single page.

Here is the Bible for Tower Site Grounding.pdf
 
Last edited:
I experienced the same thing. We have a movable dog fence made from a couple bolt together kennel cages. One section was loosely tied to the metal downspout. My wife likes thunderstorms and sits in a hanging chair fastened to the ceiling with a metal chain. She was there at the time. There was lightning and sparks shot out where fence touched the downspout.

At camp a storm came up and she went in the house to get an umbrella, metal of course. Before she got outside lightning struck the ground two feet from her lawn chair. It blew the slate and a hole in the ground. She still temps death today.

As a child I was hit by a lightning after strike. I blame that for not thinking like everyone else.
 
BarracudaBob said:
Tested, written about in detailed studies, in the code, and tower books. No mystery on what you need to do.
Having separate ground rods not tied together won't solve a thing. There are more complaints on ham radio about grounding than anything else. Everybody is an expert without reading a single page.

Here is the Bible for Tower Site Grounding
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, your link appears to be invalid. I only had one plug leading to my UPS, and one ground rod to ground it. What was there to "tie"? The only thing connected to the outside world was the ground wire. The rest was isolated, and it's worth noting that while the grounded UPS was damaged by the ground connection, the inverter that, ungrounded, powered the plug, was untouched/undamaged. There's no question in my mind where the lightning surge entered--and it was that ground rod. Again, if I had not been grounded, my UPS would not have been damaged.
 
AntronX said:
Hard to tell without schematic diagram of your system. In your specific case adding that ground rod the way you did likely caused more damage than without it. Does not mean that grounding is bad in general.
Click to expand...
I'm not good at making schematics, but here's an attempt via the tools I seem to have at hand.
1722260894857.png
There was no ground connection between that grounded plug and anything else in the house. That plug's ground went into an insulated 12-gauge copper wire, up the wall into the ceiling, across the hall and one bedroom through the open attic space, then down the exterior wall of the building, across a short "sidewalk" (part of the building's foundation), and to the 2-meter copper-clad ground rod installed just beside it, on the wettest side of the house. If it was not lightning entering through the ground rod, the only other possibility is that the strike's EMF induced a current in the ground wire that led to the rod (in which case, the wire being grounded did not help anything).

The strike damaged the UPS, probably destroying some MOVs. As it was being used properly, and still under warranty, the repair work was done for free, at the sole cost of my time (one month) and shipping fees. Fortunately, it did not allow the surge to pass through to the computer. Unfortunately, I completely lost the rendering job the computer was doing--never recovered it--as the computer lost power instantly.
 
BarracudaBob said:
Classic lighting issues with a difference of potential between two different services. If you have power out in the shed make sure you have some form of of surge arrestor that ties the phone to the shed AND main utility ground. It could be the neutral or Ground (MUCH BETTER) coming to the shed. That nice long wire going to the shed makes a great antenna to pick up all kinds of pulses & surges.

The fiber idea or WiFi VOIP is a great idea if you can do it.
Click to expand...

I checked and it is fiber optic …hmmmmm…

Such a very small, simple and compact internet system .it’s only use is to power the Wi-Fi router to cover the area near the shed....
it has no other connections to anything except the green phone box and one ac outlet in the shed …..and gets whacked …..
YET 10 different other electric devices in the shed that operate most of the time and the only thing thst ever gets fried is the grey ONT box and the Router…

I asked the phone / internet guy repair guy last week when he replaced the fried equipment about a SPD ..He didn’t seem interested in talking about it or putting one in .


I’m not going out and mess with “the phone Companys equipment “ at the utility pole so I guess we will just keeping having “fried internet gear” for supper now and then.. it’s been this way for years…

This is one reason I kept my solar system build total seperate and isolated from anything to do with the grid…I don’t have any faith in risking all my work and money to their weird behaving grid stuff that the professionals hooked up…but that’s another topic..

Anyway, Thanks for your thoughts.

J.
 
Norwasian said:
I'm not good at making schematics, but here's an attempt via the tools I seem to have at hand.
View attachment 232204
There was no ground connection between that grounded plug and anything else in the house. That plug's ground went into an insulated 12-gauge copper wire, up the wall into the ceiling, across the hall and one bedroom through the open attic space, then down the exterior wall of the building, across a short "sidewalk" (part of the building's foundation), and to the 2-meter copper-clad ground rod installed just beside it, on the wettest side of the house. If it was not lightning entering through the ground rod, the only other possibility is that the strike's EMF induced a current in the ground wire that led to the rod (in which case, the wire being grounded did not help anything).

The strike damaged the UPS, probably destroying some MOVs. As it was being used properly, and still under warranty, the repair work was done for free, at the sole cost of my time (one month) and shipping fees. Fortunately, it did not allow the surge to pass through to the computer. Unfortunately, I completely lost the rendering job the computer was doing--never recovered it--as the computer lost power instantly.
Click to expand...
You don't have a G-N bond?
Not sure if it would make any difference for the lightning, but the earthed G without the G-N bond doesn't really do anything.
 
Norwasian said:
Unfortunately, your link appears to be invalid. I only had one plug leading to my UPS, and one ground rod to ground it. What was there to "tie"? The only thing connected to the outside world was the ground wire. The rest was isolated, and it's worth noting that while the grounded UPS was damaged by the ground connection, the inverter that, ungrounded, powered the plug, was untouched/undamaged. There's no question in my mind where the lightning surge entered--and it was that ground rod. Again, if I had not been grounded, my UPS would not have been damaged.
Click to expand...
I fixed it, tnx
 
AntronX said:
@Norwasian your ground rod placement made lightning pulse go through your IOTA charger and inverter and through MOV inside the UPS. You need to place ground rod close to grid entrance point to your house and install 100kA capable surge protector (SPD) there.

Bad:
View attachment 232283
Good:
View attachment 232310
Click to expand...
What evidence might you have to suggest that if I had been setup as your "Good" scenario depicts, I would not have lost ALL of my equipment, and not merely the UPS? Keep in mind that nothing connected to the grid was damaged in the strike--the damage came from the direction of the ground rod.

And I fail to see a path to ground through the battery as in your "Bad" example. The battery isolates between two unrelated systems, as I see it.
 
AntronX said:
@Norwasian your ground rod placement made lightning pulse go through your IOTA charger and inverter and through MOV inside the UPS. You need to place ground rod close to grid entrance point to your house and install 100kA capable surge protector (SPD) there.

Bad:
View attachment 232283
Good:
View attachment 232310
Click to expand...
I surely hope your second diagram is the one to pick as that’s pretty much how I did mine..
here’s keeping my fingers crossed..

J.
 
Norwasian said:
What evidence might you have to suggest that if I had been setup as your "Good" scenario depicts
Click to expand...
Because that's how grounding done in countries with proper electrical code mandated by insurance companies to maximize safety (and minimize claims).
Norwasian said:
Keep in mind that nothing connected to the grid was damaged in the strike--the damage came from the direction of the ground rod.
Click to expand...
You cannot determine which direction "damage" came from. You can only analyze circuit path for lightning induced current.
Norwasian said:
And I fail to see a path to ground through the battery as in your "Bad" example.
Click to expand...
Your IOTA charger and inverter are connected together via DC side. Battery sits in parallel with those conductors and has no lightning surge current flowing through it.
 
Brett V said:
You don’t isolate lightning. You get it to go somewhere it can dissipate without frying your gear.
Click to expand...
Nothing was fried on the grid side.
AntronX said:
Because that's how grounding done in countries with proper electrical code mandated by insurance companies to maximize safety.

You cannot determine which direction "damage" came from. You can only analyze circuit path for lightning induced current.

Your IOTA charger and inverter are connected together via DC side. Battery sits in parallel with those conductors and has no lightning surge current flowing through it.
Click to expand...
I ran without grounding ever after, and never fried anything again. Nothing grid side was fried. If, as your diagram suggests, the lightning surge had passed through all of my equipment to get to the earth ground, can you explain why none of it was affected or damaged at all except the UPS at the end of the line?
 
Norwasian said:
can you explain why none of it was affected or damaged at all except the UPS at the end of the line?
Click to expand...
UPS was weakest link in that chain of equipment. You'd have to take apart and analyze these devices to know for sure why UPS was the weakest.
Norwasian said:
I ran without grounding ever after, and never fried anything again. Nothing grid side was fried.
Click to expand...
Because you had no path from grid to earth ground through your equipment. It was essentially floating in relation to earth ground (bad safety practice). By adding that ground rod at incorrect place you created better path to ground for lightning surge to go through your equipment.
 
AntronX said:
UPS was weakest link in that chain of equipment. You'd have to take apart and analyze these devices to know for sure why UPS was the weakest.

Because you had no path from grid to earth ground through your equipment. It was essentially floating in relation to earth ground (bad safety practice). By adding that ground rod at incorrect place you created better path to ground for lightning surge to go through your equipment.
Click to expand...
Keep in mind that it was my habit in those days to unplug the charger from the grid during the electrical portion of a storm--usually the leading edge of the storm as it hit. I think it is very likely that I had disconnected it when the damage occurred. The problem is that this happened years ago and my memory is not 100% clear. I would give it at least an 80% chance, though, that the grid was disconnected from this charger/inverter system entirely. That said, the grid was not disconnected from anything else in the house, e.g. the refrigerator, lights, etc., and none of that was ever lightning damaged, nor was it grounded. Nothing in the house was grounded, and this pattern was repeated in the neighboring houses--i.e. nothing was grounded in the vicinity.

If, as I believe to be the case, the IOTA charger had been unplugged, the grid was not the source of the surge. It is my belief that the surge came from a lightning strike which made contact with the small lake beside the house, whose waters dampened the bottom of my ground rod. That being the case, I also do not see how bonding the ground to the neutral would have helped me at all--it would only have jeopardized more of my equipment.
 
I think your belief is not factual and wrong. I am done with this. Back to original topic of discussion.
 
Question: my power shed will have six points where rebar enters the ground in sets of 4 and also 1or2 points where a stainless flow and return enters the ground, I realize these have a higher resistance than a ground rod but they will be bonded to the earthing system essentially making them supplemental rods how far should I place my main earth rod from them?
 
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