EG4 new AIO rated 12K output and 18kPV aka "EG4-18Kpv-12LV"

James, you have kind of shot yourself in the foot here by having an apparent reputation for bad communications between your batteries and the current crop of eg4 inverters.

cs1234 said:

I gave you a solution, don't support open loop, disable it in firmware and market appropriately. Don't hide it sneakily in the warranty contract.

I also suggested reducing charging amperage to something you feel is safe.

Even @Will Prowse only recently started accepting "comms". Up until recently many of his videos said he doesn't bother with it and just sets the voltage parameters and goes.. on your past inverters I believe. Now they are open loop insanity fire hazards.

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James started sneaking in the warranty stipulations here. https://diysolarforum.com/threads/solark15k-vs-eg4-18k.61711/post-766977

I'm still looking for his technical post about back current but haven't found any.

My question about all of this is, is signature solar speaking officially for EG4? I know the companies seem awfully close and sometimes I wonder if they aren't related entities but given that other companies will be selling this inverter, it would be ideal if EG4 could confirm/clarify the warranty position. It always seems like EG4 hides behind Signature Solar while Signature takes all the lashes...which sometimes is well deserved.

Does this inverter support closed loop with Pytes. These batteries seem to have all the certs, good selection of inverter support and even UL9540 when paired with specific inverters. They are about the same price as the LLv2.

Henderson said:

My question about all of this is, is signature solar speaking officially for EG4? I know the companies seem awfully close and sometimes I wonder if they aren't related entities but given that other companies will be selling this inverter, it would be ideal if EG4 could confirm/clarify the warranty position. It always seems like EG4 hides behind Signature Solar while Signature takes all the lashes...which sometimes is well deserved.

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EG4 Electronics and Signature Solar are both registered in Texas as LLCs under the same name.

rhino said:

EG4 Electronics and Signature Solar are both registered in Texas as LLCs under the same name.

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this clarifies some other questons i had, thanks.

cs1234 said:

@SignatureSolarJames

Can you provide us with more details about these back current issues that are causing fires and trashing all these inverters? I'm not up to speed on this issue. If it's been discussed here on the forums, I somehow missed it. Aside from lifepo4 batteries destroying inverters when not precharged first because of massive current inrush into empty capacitors, I'm not aware of anything remotely close to what you're describing.

Maybe it's something @Will Prowse can do a video on, so we can protect ourselves from open loop insanity fire hazards.

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Will Prowse said:

What inverters have you destroyed from doing this? I haven't destroyed one but I've destroyed a lot of batteries. Can you post more about these inverters getting destroyed

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I'm sorry if my post was confusing Will. I was asking @SignatureSolarJames for proof of what inverters / batteries are being destroyed based on his earlier post where he described batteries without comms as "open loop" insanity and then proceeded to say they were fire hazards that they don't want to be liable for if used with their inverter.

Maybe somebody could also explain to me what is the significant advantage that comms gives the inverter vs open loop insanity batteries that makes it so much safer that to not use it is insanity? Charging specs from the BMS / battery maker? Internal temperature? Internal cell voltages? State of charge, vs having to guess itself based on voltage settings and resistance/amp acceptance?

Wouldn't their EG4 rack batteries instantly become open loop insanity batteries if they are used without comms on something?

How about their EG4 Chargeverter? That doesn't support comms right? So is it a death trap even when used with their server rack batteries?

ChrisG said:

Does this inverter support closed loop with Pytes. These batteries seem to have all the certs, good selection of inverter support and even UL9540 when paired with specific inverters. They are about the same price as the LLv2.

Pytes E-Box 48100R 5.12kWH 51.2V Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery

Note: This battery only comes with battery to battery cables, If you need battery to inverter cables, please click here.

www.solar-electric.com

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we do have comms with them. would love comms bingo in the future

Regarding back current as James calls it. https://diysolarforum.com/threads/6500ex-48-inductive-loads.51122/post-650480

Definitely an interesting post.

"The ability for a HF inverter to take this momentary back feed current depends on its HV DC filter capacitor values and feedback control stability of its battery to HV DC converter. Generally, on the cheaper HF inverters, the HV DC filter capacitor is only about 500-1000 uF and a load power factor worse than about 0.7 to 0.8 is getting near their limit. You will see rapid variations in the AC output voltage level when it starts to become unstable."

Zwy said:

Regarding back current as James calls it. https://diysolarforum.com/threads/6500ex-48-inductive-loads.51122/post-650480

Definitely an interesting post.

"The ability for a HF inverter to take this momentary back feed current depends on its HV DC filter capacitor values and feedback control stability of its battery to HV DC converter. Generally, on the cheaper HF inverters, the HV DC filter capacitor is only about 500-1000 uF and a load power factor worse than about 0.7 to 0.8 is getting near their limit. You will see rapid variations in the AC output voltage level when it starts to become unstable."

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Unrelated to this thread specifically, but maybe the HV DC cap on one of your inverters is bad.

Henderson said:

My question about all of this is, is signature solar speaking officially for EG4? I know the companies seem awfully close and sometimes I wonder if they aren't related entities but given that other companies will be selling this inverter, it would be ideal if EG4 could confirm/clarify the warranty position. It always seems like EG4 hides behind Signature Solar while Signature takes all the lashes...which sometimes is well deserved.

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Simply put: I am the publicly listed 100% owner of both companies, EG4 has to support and listen to multiple distribution channels, and Signature Solar is focused on the DIY buyer/Electrician/ installer moving to solar+storage.

I'm also a middle kid in a family of 10 and like arguments too much personally, as a person of faith I also have a hard time telling myself that I'm above convo with the general public as I know that I am no better than anybody else here as a person and they might frankly have good input even if it is not 100% kind to us.

PreppenWolf said:

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Sometimes one should base their "opinion" on facts which includes data from testing.

Otherwise, one might look like an idiot.

I've found some interesting data as a result of testing. I've shared some but not all. I would like to see your testing results.

SparkyJJO said:

Unrelated to this thread specifically, but maybe the HV DC cap on one of your inverters is bad.

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I'm not certain it is unrelated, James mentioned back current and as such one has to take into account inductive loads and power factor.

As he has yet to provide the technical aspect of his back current claim, then one has to assume it must be related to power factor.

Or it really isn't back current but something else.

SignatureSolarJames said:

Simply put: I am the publicly listed 100% owner of both companies, EG4 has to support and listen to multiple distribution channels, and Signature Solar is focused on the DIY buyer/Electrician/ installer moving to solar+storage

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thanks for that confirmation. and certainly nothing wrong with owning both, just wanted to understand the relationship between the various parties here.

Zwy said:

Sometimes one should base their "opinion" on facts which includes data from testing.

Otherwise, one might look like an idiot.

I've found some interesting data as a result of testing. I've shared some but not all. I would like to see your testing results.

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What should I test? My house is running. Nothing is behaving differently than when I was on grid. I haven't even done firmware on my units. They're still running on what they came out of the box with.

I would buy one of these 18k units in a heartbeat if I was doing a new system in another house.

SparkyJJO said:

Unrelated to this thread specifically, but maybe the HV DC cap on one of your inverters is bad.

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We can compare against any other caps and look good, the thing is that variables are created with open loop and this market wants things to head towards an air-tight customer experience. I think you can have that is the variables are controlled but make equipment that also supports free-hand tinkering.

I think the future looks like:
-Super high efficiency speed support guarantee for internet-connected closed loop customers.

-Base standard warranty service and troubleshooting for people who do not connect to the web for troubleshooting and don't have closed loop.

in pursuit of this, we will:
-work to be completely supportive of comms with any battery in demand
-make battery comms white papers clear and totally bulletproof
-be the first hybrid inverter to offer a universal cell modem solution with a built-in data plan for 5 years included


On a side note, yes we faced minority but sporadic issues with voltronic battery comms last year as they just literally wrote code to cover up that the batts were not communicating vs solving the problem, a hard lesson for us that ended up in engineers overseas full time now. but not something you would craft strategy off of going forward.

We will have a base support days no matter what in the docs, our advertised timeframe will only be valid with the 2 factors needed to help us help you guys.

In our push to make solar projects do-able and affordable for more people we have to make sure the support speed and efficiency can be delivered in a way to not leave people hanging who are on a tight budget with timeframes they can't manage. the only way I see this happening is by removing variables and creating access to support for efficient troubleshooting. I think several of you guys will come around to this and hope y'all can encourage others to do these 2 things if the most rapid support is a concern for them

SignatureSolarJames said:

In our push to make solar projects do-able and affordable for more people we have to make sure the support speed and efficiency can be delivered in a way to not leave people hanging who are on a tight budget with timeframes they can't manage. the only way I see this happening is by removing variables and creating access to support for efficient troubleshooting. I think several of you guys will come around to this and hope y'all can encourage others to do these 2 things if the most rapid support is a concern for them

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I don't think anyone would argue that this is a good goal. The issue is is that people including myself got the impression I would not have issues using an open comms battery system with the 18kPV because this is not made clear. I just happened to notice the potential warranty voided line when using open comms and then you further explained there may be further firmware issues and support issues. All of this would be easily cleared up if the system was advertised as requiring a closed loop battery system and not trying to also sell to people that have open loop comm battery system that are likely to have a lot of issues considering what was stated.

PreppenWolf said:

What should I test? My house is running. Nothing is behaving differently than when I was on grid. I haven't even done firmware on my units. They're still running on what they came out of the box with.

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Ignorance can be bliss. Ever heard that saying?

PreppenWolf said:

I would buy one of these 18k units in a heartbeat if I was doing a new system in another house.

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It could be a good decision or possibly not a good decision. We will know once these units are released and installed after a period of time.