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critique my ground-neutral bond plan

ksJoe

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I have a EG4 3kw inverter/charge controller. From my reading, it dynamically creates a ground-neutral bond when not receiving power on its AC input (i.e. the grid / generator input). EG4's assumption seems to be that with grid supplied power, the grid supplies the ground-neutral bond, and for all other circumstances, the inverter should supply it. This seems to work well for everything except when a generator is supplying power to the AC input on the inverter...

In my use case, there is no grid power. Never has been, never will be. 99.9% of the time it will be running off solar & batteries, so the dynamic ground-neutral bond will be activated by the inverter. My breaker box will have ground and neutral separated, so while running of solar & batteries the only point of ground-neutral bond will be the one in the inverter, which is ideal. (I say "ideal" because there is exactly 1 bond, as there should be)

The complication is if ever need to connect a generator. As I understand it, then the ground-neutral bond in the inverter will be deactivated.

So, my plan is: on the AC input to the inverter (the grid/generator input, which in my case would only ever be connected to a generator), I intend connect the ground and neutral at the AC input to the inverter. Clearly this would create a loop if connected to grid power. Seems like the simple solution for generator use. That means if I plug in a generator, when the inverter kicks over to use it, the internal ground-neutral bond is deactivated and the bond I created on the AC input cable is the only point of ground-neutral bond. So we maintain exactly 1 bond.

Alternatively, I could easily create a ground-neutral bond within my breaker box, then there would always be at least 1 bond. But that would create a ground loop most of the time. As I understand it, that would be mostly safe, except under some odd maintenance circumstances I don't recall, and the loop would be prone to creating interference.

This is in the US, so its 120v power, but its a rural area with no inspections. (I'd happily let them inspect it, but the governing authority doesn't inspect off-grid electrical) So there are no code compliance concerns for the sake compliance, but I am very interested in having it be safe.

I've done a lot of reading on this forum. I think some would suggest creating the ground loop and say I shouldn't worry about it. Others (the pickier ones) I think would approve of my plan, with a big caveat that it shouldn't be connected to grid power with my bonding of the ground-neutral at the inverter's AC input.

So... did I get that right?
 
I would think that's fine. You're just creating a ground-neutral bond at the generator. There are commercial plugs you can buy for this, or make your own... or a jumper wire... just depends on your generator.


I have a similar question... I want to disable the bond on the EG4. I will ONLY use it to back feed my whole home, so there will always be a bond in my main panel.
 
I would think that's fine. You're just creating a ground-neutral bond at the generator. There are commercial plugs you can buy for this, or make your own... or a jumper wire... just depends on your generator.


I have a similar question... I want to disable the bond on the EG4. I will ONLY use it to back feed my whole home, so there will always be a bond in my main panel.
This is what I did on my generator. It had a floating neutral so I bought a DIY NEMA 5-15p and connected a small piece of 12g copper from ground to neutral. Then plug it into one of the generator receptacles and it creates the bonded neutral connection. Can remove and add whenever needed.
 
Best option would be to disable the neutral/ground bond relay in the inverter. and do the bond in you main panel. Since the neutral and ground are switched any bond you create on the input side will be there all time, even if the inverter thinks it's off grid, and closes it's own netrual bond rely.
 
I powered it up Saturday. Thanks
IMG_2934.JPG

I cut up and welded an aluminum server rack to make a sem-portable battery & inverter unit. Twistlock plugs connect pv input and AC output.71778876785__817A2264-EBB1-4C60-B5BF-2FC0C0CB9D6C (1).JPG
 
I have a similar question... I want to disable the bond on the EG4. I will ONLY use it to back feed my whole home, so there will always be a bond in my main panel.

FYI the newer units have the bond disabled/removed.
 
Doesn't mention it anywhere in the manual at least the one on the website. If the main panel from utility power is bonded that not going to work when using the inverter.

My breaker box will have ground and neutral separated, so while running of solar & batteries the only point of ground-neutral bond will be the one in the inverter, which is ideal. (I say "ideal" because there is exactly 1 bond, as there should be)
you should remove it if it isn't already removed, and bond it in the panel itself
and then you should bond it on the generator.. even if the generator is tied to the same ground as the panel is.
and then let the inverter switch between them
 


you should remove it if it isn't already removed, and bond it in the panel itself
and then you should bond it on the generator.. even if the generator is tied to the same ground as the panel is.

So wrong.

Only one N-G bond in any system.

If inverter bonds under inverter power, when adding a generator that feeds thru the inverter (that has dynamic bond) all that needs to be done is bond the generator.
 
So wrong.

Only one N-G bond in any system.

If inverter bonds under inverter power, when adding a generator that feeds thru the inverter (that has dynamic bond) all that needs to be done is bond the generator.
Yes that is what I said, so before calling someone wrong why not read better?

The inverter auto switches between the neutral/load/ground of the AC in or the battery..
 
Doesn't mention it anywhere in the manual at least the one on the website. If the main panel from utility power is bonded that not going to work when using the inverter.
If N-G bond is before the inverter and bypass is used, the system will be bonded at the utility power first disconnect.

If the inverter has dynamic bonding and switches N, then N-G bond will be at the inverter.
 
Yes that is what I said, so before calling someone wrong why not read better?
I can most certainly read quite well.

That isn't what you said. You said to remove the bond in the inverter and bond the main panel. Then bond the generator. Under generator operation, there will be 2 N-G bonds present.

Yes, you were incorrect. Objectionable current will flow on G between the generator and the main panel.
 
I can most certainly read quite well.

That isn't what you said. You said to remove the bond in the inverter and bond the main panel. Then bond the generator. Under generator operation, there will be 2 N-G bonds present.

Yes, you were incorrect. Objectionable current will flow on G between the generator and the main panel.
Read the link, also learn to edit in posts
 
Read the link, also learn to edit in posts
I know all about SS and their bonding. It has changed multiple times due to feedback and the experience of members like myself. Many of us spent many hours determining how the Voltronic inverters should be safely bonded. You weren't here at the time, so we could not correct you then, but we sure can accommodate you now. :ROFLMAO:

Perhaps you should read this as the information from that page and the video is now dated and changes have been made. https://diysolarforum.com/threads/eg4-6500ex-and-6000ex-flickering-lights-and-firmware.72004/

Perhaps you need to study a few things about bonding before providing incorrect information?
 
I know all about SS and their bonding. It has changed multiple times due to feedback and the experience of members like myself. Many of us spent many hours determining how the Voltronic inverters should be safely bonded. You weren't here at the time, so we could not correct you then, but we sure can accommodate you now. :ROFLMAO:

Perhaps you should read this as the information from that page and the video is now dated and changes have been made. https://diysolarforum.com/threads/eg4-6500ex-and-6000ex-flickering-lights-and-firmware.72004/

Perhaps you need to study a few things about bonding before providing incorrect information?
Naw, I understand where you misread what I said. I'm perfectly fine
 
Naw, I understand where you misread what I said. I'm perfectly fine
I have you figured out, but I'll let you get by on this major infraction. This time. I corrected you so others inexperienced like yourself are not misled.

I might not be as nice next time. :ROFLMAO:
 
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I have you figured out, but I'll let you get by on this major infraction. This time. I corrected you so others inexperienced like yourself are not misled.

I might not be as nice next time. :ROFLMAO:
I've been doing solar ~20 years
 
If N-G bond is before the inverter and bypass is used, the system will be bonded at the utility power first disconnect.

If the inverter has dynamic bonding and switches N, then N-G bond will be at the inverter.
I understand now EG-4 disabled the dynamic bonding which makes perfect sense for home applications. The only application you would want the inverter to dynamically bond using software and a relay would be inside of an RV. Where when plugged into an RV park their wiring is bonded somewhere in the parks system probably at their main service entrance panel do not want to bond in the RV. When the RV is not connected you would want it bonded somewhere in your own wiring system inside the RV either with a relay, or manually. Does that sound correct?

The EG-4 I just bought I checked it N&G is not bonded which is what I want because I will be connecting it to my homes panel which will pass through the neutral and ground which is bonded at the main service panel.
 
I understand now EG-4 disabled the dynamic bonding which makes perfect sense for home applications. The only application you would want the inverter to dynamically bond using software and a relay would be inside of an RV. Where when plugged into an RV park their wiring is bonded somewhere in the parks system probably at their main service entrance panel do not want to bond in the RV. When the RV is not connected you would want it bonded somewhere in your own wiring system inside the RV either with a relay, or manually. Does that sound correct?

The latest firmware for the EG4 should allow for bonding at the inverter under inverter power for a RV. It will open N-G bond when on shore power.

The EG-4 I just bought I checked it N&G is not bonded which is what I want because I will be connecting it to my homes panel which will pass through the neutral and ground which is bonded at the main service panel.
There have been some changes and there was a post from Jarret at EG4 regarding bonding screws and bonding at the inverter. I think as time went on they did some testing to fix the flickering light problems and came to the conclusion to add the bonding screw back in, then make it an setting where bonding can be changed by the user.
 
The latest firmware for the EG4 should allow for bonding at the inverter under inverter power for a RV. It will open N-G bond when on shore power.


There have been some changes and there was a post from Jarret at EG4 regarding bonding screws and bonding at the inverter. I think as time went on they did some testing to fix the flickering light problems and came to the conclusion to add the bonding screw back in, then make it an setting where bonding can be changed by the user.
I was going by this video 10 months ago from EG4 says the bonding screw was removed on all inverters and firmware was updated to pass through the N&G bond from your service panel. The post you're referring to says the 6000ex they would no longer receive firmware updates they could re-install the bonding screw and use that firmware version to control the relay I'm assuming with a setting to solve flickering LED lights due to voltage fluctuation. I was wondering how clean the sine wave was out of these inverters. I noticed the warranty sticker covers one screw to get the cover off probably void the warranty trying to put a screw back in.

Does that post you are referring to only for the 6000ex I notice that model no longer sold on Signature solar now it's the 6000xp. I'm assuming they discontinued that older model because they no longer supporting the firmware.
 
I was going by this video 10 months ago from EG4 says the bonding screw was removed on all inverters and firmware was updated to pass through the N&G bond from your service panel.

I'm well aware of that video, we had discussion about it for almost 2 months where Signature Solar/EG4 said it was coming in a few days but it took close to 2 months before they released it. It is dated and no longer applies. It should disappear because it adds to the confusion.


The post you're referring to says the 6000ex they would no longer receive firmware updates they could re-install the bonding screw and use that firmware version to control the relay I'm assuming with a setting to solve flickering LED lights due to voltage fluctuation.

This applies to the 6500EX also. The removal of the bonding screw made problems worse when I tried to correct the flickering lights in my system with the 6500EX inverters. I had a pair of LV6548's with on bonding screw in place (if you search for LV6548 and objectionable current you can read up on why one screw) and installing those in place of the 6500EX's the flicker problem resolved. I was quite critical of SS/EG4 in one of my videos. I think after my experience they went back and looked at what might be the cause of the light flicker and decided to put the bonding screw back in with a firmware update where bonding could easily be turned on/off.



I was wondering how clean the sine wave was out of these inverters.

I have other videos showing sine distortion with full PV power coming in.


I noticed the warranty sticker covers one screw to get the cover off probably void the warranty trying to put a screw back in.

Removal will not affect warranty.

Does that post you are referring to only for the 6000ex I notice that model no longer sold on Signature solar now it's the 6000xp. I'm assuming they discontinued that older model because they no longer supporting the firmware.
SS/EG4 quit their relationship with Voltronic due to problems with the inverters they sold and SS/EG4 went to Luxpower manufactured units like the 18Kpv and 6000xp. The Luxpower units are better unit than the Voltronic units they sold.

Not all Voltronic units have those problems. It seems either the change in specs (higher PV voltage is one) and some hardware substitution created the problems seen by SS/EG4. The MPP LV6548 was the proven model and the SS/EG4 units were based on the LV6548 with some changes, yet the LV6548 doesn't suffer from the same problems. I run a pair and they have worked flawless.
 
I'm well aware of that video, we had discussion about it for almost 2 months where Signature Solar/EG4 said it was coming in a few days but it took close to 2 months before they released it. It is dated and no longer applies. It should disappear because it adds to the confusion.




This applies to the 6500EX also. The removal of the bonding screw made problems worse when I tried to correct the flickering lights in my system with the 6500EX inverters. I had a pair of LV6548's with on bonding screw in place (if you search for LV6548 and objectionable current you can read up on why one screw) and installing those in place of the 6500EX's the flicker problem resolved. I was quite critical of SS/EG4 in one of my videos. I think after my experience they went back and looked at what might be the cause of the light flicker and decided to put the bonding screw back in with a firmware update where bonding could easily be turned on/off.





I have other videos showing sine distortion with full PV power coming in.




Removal will not affect warranty.


SS/EG4 quit their relationship with Voltronic due to problems with the inverters they sold and SS/EG4 went to Luxpower manufactured units like the 18Kpv and 6000xp. The Luxpower units are better unit than the Voltronic units they sold.

Not all Voltronic units have those problems. It seems either the change in specs (higher PV voltage is one) and some hardware substitution created the problems seen by SS/EG4. The MPP LV6548 was the proven model and the SS/EG4 units were based on the LV6548 with some changes, yet the LV6548 doesn't suffer from the same problems. I run a pair and they have worked flawless.

I'll have to take a look at those videos I wanted to use the EG-4 3000 to power my servers, network, and other PC's as a battery backup unit. Signwave distortion not good although I know can get that if you get too close to it's max power output.

According to threads like this one Signature Solar actually did tell a customer they voided the warranty after opening the case up. I understand it was likely resolved by posting a thread here which should not have to happen to get a warranty issue resolved. I hope not to have any issues with it. Oddly after all this discussion about bonding I went back opened up some subpanels I installed over the years sure enough I bonded a sub-panel where my pool equipment is. When I turned on the 110V pool light I measured 1/2 an amp going back over the ground wire to the main panel. This will be an easy fix just need a grounding bar installed since I pulled 4 wires to that panel.

Do you know if the EG-4 3000 V2 is built by Voltronic, or Luxpower. If it works out, I like to get a 2nd one and run split phase for my pool pump it pulls about 8.35 amps at 240V.
 

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