diy solar

diy solar

Warpverter

Hi Tony,

Just read through this thread, and what a interesting read.

I have attached a PDF file from the 'OzInverter' book Tech chapter, that you wrote up a few pages for me, about your clever design and build of the 'Warpverter'. I trust this is okay?

Roger's 'Warpverter' looks real nice my hat is duly raised.

I have been pointing folk towards the 'Warpverter', when they ask me about the best Inverter ever, and i trust 'Roger' will carry the 'Warpverter' forward.
 

Attachments

  • WarpstepInverter.pdf
    1,015.7 KB · Views: 31
Hi Tony,

I have attached a PDF file from the 'OzInverter' book Tech chapter, that you wrote up a few pages for me.
Hi Leslie, really good to hear from you again.
Golly, its been quite a few years since I wrote that, it certainly brings back memories.

For anyone contemplating going off grid and home building an inverter, Leslie's book is an excellent source of knowledge and ideas.
Its basically a distillation of many of the projects and threads over at The Back Shed forum over the years, and a great place to start researching the building of an inverter, specifically the PWM Ozinverter which is recommended up to around 5Kw.
It also includes the above introductory information about the Warpverter, which would be a better approach at higher power levels..
https://levivray.com/new-book--make-a-6kw-inverter.php
 
Hi Tony,

I have given up on supplying the 3 PCB's as Country's Customs have become a real stop on small PCB batches, especially those A4 double thick copper Power boards of mine. I have a few control boards, 50HZ and 60HZ, and cooling boards in stock, so i will offer them for the meantime.

Once somebody has ordered the book, and has my email address i can, if they wish, email them with my XGerber files for the PCB manufacturing process in thier own Country.

I have moved all my tech stuff over to my old Microengineering site, yea it rambles around a bit but all books, ........... OzInverter, 3.7m dia Wind Turbines 3.2kW PV solar trackers and other projects will be there. Still non comercial, and as long as i get my money/expences back my projects are still fun to help others who want to learn.

I have another 4 books in the process of compiling, but the real fun one is the 'Make your own 450ah 2v Modern version of the PLANTE lead acid battery'. Been working on and off on this project for over a year now and i do occasionally post/update on the 'Backshed' and 'Fieldlines' .

Take care Tony,
Best wishes Leslie.
 
While we're on the topic of the OzInverter - did anyone of you know that (at least the power board) is used in several commercially available inverters (including from MUST, POWER STAR, FELICITY - all very popular on the African continent).

Here is the one that's in a MUST EP3000 Plus (taken from some website, but I have one of these inverters and it's definitely this one):

43667281_20200412-155907_1_1500x1125.jpg
 
While we're on the topic of the OzInverter - did anyone of you know that (at least the power board) is used in several commercially available inverters (including from MUST, POWER STAR, FELICITY - all very popular on the African continent).

Here is the one that's in a MUST EP3000 Plus (taken from some website, but I have one of these inverters and it's definitely this one):

View attachment 192920

Looks like the old (about 2013) Power Jack power board. They were good up to about 3kw and a smallish toroid.

Here is a photo of my design, based from the W7 PowerStar that 'Oztules' worked with. The Chinese used the W7 for the Later PowerJacks.
 

Attachments

  • OzBoardsAssTIPHeatS2019.jpg
    OzBoardsAssTIPHeatS2019.jpg
    391.3 KB · Views: 11
Here is a picture of the inside, including the toroid (total weight about 35kg):

dsc_2333-preview3-jpg.32591
 
Here is big Ozinverter, toroid assembly is 42kg. And the standard OzInverter with a toroid of 30kg.
 

Attachments

  • Oz2Assembly8kWJan2019.jpg
    Oz2Assembly8kWJan2019.jpg
    143.1 KB · Views: 10
  • CaseInside2.jpg
    CaseInside2.jpg
    276.7 KB · Views: 10
Last edited:
I thought that some of you might want a good tech read about Inverters.

It shows the development and general tech explanations of the PWM inverters and other concepts.

I therefore hereby release my Chapter 14, Tech Info, as a PDF. Leslie Bryan, 03 Feb 2024..
 

Attachments

  • Chpt142019Feb2024c.pdf
    2.1 MB · Views: 20
There were a lot of discussions and some arguments about chokes back in the early days over at the Back Shed.
It took quite a long time before a lot of people believed that a choke was even necessary !
The original Oz inverters used no choke and they appeared to work just fine.
A lot has been learned since then, and the learning curve is still ongoing today.

Interestingly, as the guys over at Back Shed were making real progress with much diminished idling current, and far fewer blow ups, we started to see chokes appearing in Chinese products. It appears the Chinese follow our progress here with great interest.
 
There were a lot of discussions and some arguments about chokes back in the early days over at the Back Shed

Read through this whole thread yesterday about Roll your own MPPT over at the Back Shed.
Lot of discussion there also about chokes.
Goes back to early 2020. ~50 pages. Now I've got to read through it again.
@clockmanfr , I also ordered your Ozinverter book on Friday. Thank you for sharing.

Randall
 
Designing chokes is a particularly complex subject to get ones head around.
Unlike most electronic design tasks, there are no step by step design rules to follow, that will lead directly to an optimum design.
Its basically "make a guess" and then see how all the numbers turn out, and if its practical.
Change a few things, and start all over again.
 
DIY Inverters, Making the Toroid transformer. From the OzInverter book Chapter 4.

The toroid is the most effiecent transformer, with only small losses compared to the standard EI square lanimated transformers.

This Chapter 4 contains all the required info on making your own torroids for an Inverter, it shows actual practise and how to assemble and wind.

Most of the info is for a 6kW (real running inverter 48vdc to 120vac or 230vac). As you can see its all about the actual mass/weight of the bare toroid and you can therfore extrapulate the calculations to suit what you require.
I also show the Secondary and Primary windings and their respective count calculations, again these can be extrapulated to suit what you want.
 

Attachments

  • ToroidChapter5.pdf
    2.4 MB · Views: 13
Measure BH curve of choke. You can make a Chan model in LT Spice. I found that did quite well in showing how they behaved in circuit, at least relative performance of different chokes.

The hysteresis curves of different materials vary widely, are optimized for different purposes. Manufacturers publish only part of the data, so you have to measure and model on your own.
 
Measure BH curve of choke. You can make a Chan model in LT Spice. I found that did quite well in showing how they behaved in circuit, at least relative performance of different chokes.

The hysteresis curves of different materials vary widely, are optimized for different purposes. Manufacturers publish only part of the data, so you have to measure and model on your own.
Magnetization curve is certainly important for the dc ampere turns through the choke aspect.

Along with that, we need to think about the superimposed ac ripple, and the effects that will have on core loss and skin effect.
Then there is temperature rise of both core and wire.

And we might need to think about possible resonance effect, both internal, and external, when connected into the actual circuit.
Size and cost considerations too perhaps.

There is so much to think about, and so many factors are interrelated, and it becomes a judgement call on how best to balance things.
Fixing a problem in one area can very easily make problems in another area worse.
Choke design is an excellent way to drive yourself nuts....
 
Sure, but saturation and hysteresis are a key part of choke behavior.
I think you can get lower hysteresis in a choke than a transformer, so optimize selection of materials.

I tried to use a toroid transformer as low-frequency choke, reasoning it was optimzied for low frequency behavior. Such a transformer only a few times larger than a choke with nanocrystaline core performed significantly worse. It took a toroid transformer many times larger than the choke to beat its performance, in my application.

I think the Warpverter design will already have relatively little high-frequency content, unlike PWM synthesis of sine wave. So less demand on the choke, and skin effect likely not so much of a problem. I haven't looked into that, although I did use 30 awg silver-plated wire wrap wire for an 11 MHz transformer. There, self-resonance was a problem with "enamel" magnet wire. The 10 mil Kynar insulation of wire-wrap wire fixed that.

I highly recommend measurement and modeling of BH curve. There is an EEVblog on it, with link to a video from MIT.

Rather than analog integrator, I did that with scope digital functions or Matlab. I used a variac and series resistor to apply signal (step down through another transformer for chokes that can only hold off about 1V at 60 Hz, as opposed to transformers good for 120V or 240V.)

Also in LTSpice, try to use math rather than analog components. Easier to tweek for different values and frequencies.
 
Sure, but saturation and hysteresis are a key part of choke behavior.
Its only one part, and it may be a quite small part.
By definition a choke has "some" dc component (an inductor does not).

Now the ratio of dc to ac is extremely important in choke design.
Two extremes might be a noise reduction choke in the output of a very high dc current switching power supply.
Maybe 50 amps dc, and 50mV of ac noise.

The other extreme might be a 3Kv boost converter choke. Huge ac voltage, but only a few milliamps of dc.
Both might require very similar inductance !
But other than the inductance, they will have absolutely nothing else in common.
 
This looks similar in approach to the old Trace SW series - although I think they used a single transformer core with multiple windings. Have you ever looked at that design?
 
This looks similar in approach to the old Trace SW series - although I think they used a single transformer core with multiple windings. Have you ever looked at that design?
Yes its a very similar approach in principle, but there are also some quite major differences.

Trace uses three individual transformers, as you can clearly see by the simplified circuit, and pictures in post #31 on page 3.
 
Sure, but saturation and hysteresis are a key part of choke behavior.
I think you can get lower hysteresis in a choke than a transformer, so optimize selection of materials.

I tried to use a toroid transformer as low-frequency choke, reasoning it was optimzied for low frequency behavior. Such a transformer only a few times larger than a choke with nanocrystaline core performed significantly worse. It took a toroid transformer many times larger than the choke to beat its performance, in my application.

I think the Warpverter design will already have relatively little high-frequency content, unlike PWM synthesis of sine wave. So less demand on the choke, and skin effect likely not so much of a problem. I haven't looked into that, although I did use 30 awg silver-plated wire wrap wire for an 11 MHz transformer. There, self-resonance was a problem with "enamel" magnet wire. The 10 mil Kynar insulation of wire-wrap wire fixed that.

I highly recommend measurement and modeling of BH curve. There is an EEVblog on it, with link to a video from MIT.

Rather than analog integrator, I did that with scope digital functions or Matlab. I used a variac and series resistor to apply signal (step down through another transformer for chokes that can only hold off about 1V at 60 Hz, as opposed to transformers good for 120V or 240V.)

Also in LTSpice, try to use math rather than analog components. Easier to tweek for different values and frequencies.
Not really any suprise that toroid transformer core doesn't work as a choke. It has high relative permeability (>2000) and it means that it will saturate at very low current. Probably takes only tens of milliamps DC to saturate toroid transformer primary.
You would need to gap it to lower the permeability but gapping wound toroid cores is easier said than done.

For chokes or inductors you generally want the relative permeability somewhere between 20 to 100. I'd start at 40. For ferrite or iron lamination E-cores the required air gap is easy to calculate.
With distributed air gap material(MPP, Sendust, iron powder) you are stuck at what is available from market ie.
 
Not really any suprise that toroid transformer core doesn't work as a choke. It has high relative permeability (>2000) and it means that it will saturate at very low current. Probably takes only tens of milliamps DC to saturate toroid transformer primary.
You would need to gap it to lower the permeability but gapping wound toroid cores is easier said than done.

For chokes or inductors you generally want the relative permeability somewhere between 20 to 100. I'd start at 40. For ferrite or iron lamination E-cores the required air gap is easy to calculate.
With distributed air gap material(MPP, Sendust, iron powder) you are stuck at what is available from market ie.
Yes, toroids wound from silicon steel are only suitable for transformers or inductors where there is zero dc current.

But you can buy U cores made from exactly the same wound silicon steel as the toroids. Instead of being wound over a round mandrel, they are wound over a rectangular mandrel, then cut in half. That allows the incorporation of an air gap, and these do make wonderfully cost effective high power chokes for some applications.

A choke by definition has to carry a dc current, but also support an ac voltage across the choke. When designing a choke both these requirements must be met, and both requirements can cover a huge range for different applications. That is why there is such a very wide choice of core materials available. And then you get to choose either an ungapped core of suitable permeability, or a gapped core where you can adjust the permeability to get exactly what is needed by experimentation with the gap. This offers obvious advantages for an experimental project.

There are some fundamental requirements that ALL need to be met when deciding if a particular choke is going to be effective.
The basic ones are:

How much inductance will it have with both high and low dc current..
Will it saturate, and will it have soft, or a brick wall saturation characteristic.
Will the core material overheat.
Will the wire overheat.

But there are some other requirements too:

Will the choke be operating well below self resonance.
Will the choke in combination with external capacitance produce a resonance (it always will) but is it going to be harmful.
Will ripple current be high enough that skin effect in the wire becomes a problem.
Is the insulation up to the job.

These factors individually can end up being of negligible significance, to presenting a horrific and insurmountable problem depending on what the choke is being used for. The art of choke design is in deciding what is important for a particular application, and trying a few different approaches using published data. There is no direct method of reaching an optimum solution very first try. Its an iterative process, first on paper, then maybe with some real world testing and experimentation. Ten different choke designers will come up with ten very different designs.
Some will work better than others, some may be smaller or cheaper. But they will probably in the end all be usable.
 

diy solar

diy solar
Back
Top