1 awg battery cables that turned out to be 4 awg.

[Mattb4]

I have been adding more loads to my AIO as I try to make use of additional PV generation. The latest has been my kitchen outlets that are used for my microwave, induction cooktop, pizza oven and a lot of other occasional use things. In doing so I found out that I had made a mistake in trusting some inverter cables I had bought a year back. They claimed to be 1 awg which should have been sufficient to easily carry the 65-80a load from the 24vDC batteries.

The back history of these cables was that about a year ago I was researching Power jack LF inverters for purchase on Ebay. I happened to see that one of the E-stores had on clearance what they claimed were good quality 1 awg inverter cables. They certainly looked heavy duty and the price was almost half compared to similar rated cables elsewhere. So I bought them and eventually used them to wire up my 3kw AIO.

A few nights back while using the induction cooktop to boil water for spaghetti noodles I checked after about 10 minutes of operation my AIO setup. I noted the cables were very warm to the touch and so pliable that I was afraid that the insulation jacket was going to break down. Something was not kosher. So yesterday I removed the cables and cut off one end. Yes the cables were fine strand copper as claimed. However the size was quite a bit smaller than the very thick plastic insulation jacket would have me believe. Upon some measurement it seems that the wire is just about 4 awg in size. (it can stuff into a 4awg terminal but is tight must be a metric odd ball) No wonder this cable was getting hot.

I replaced the deficient cable promptly with some known 2 awg cable for now while I have on order from Temco for some 1-0 cable and terminal ends. Last night I did the cooking of spaghetti again to test out things. The 2 awg did not seem to get noticeably warmer so that is a relief.

I looked up the store I bought the bad cable from and they are gone. Not that I expect after a year I could have expected any action.

Lesson learned: Buy only known quality wire.

 

[Bluedog225]

Yeah. I found some jumper cables in my dad’s garage. They were super thick. But when cut open, the thinnest cross section of wire you can imagine. Maybe 16 gauge.

 

[ShaneC]

Not saying the cables were legit or trustable but a cables awg ampacity is not all about copper cross section area. The copper will to all intents and purposes never melt, it will just get very hot. What melts and starts fires is the insulation so very good quality insulation can improve a cables ampacity if it won't melt at relatively high temperatures.

 

[Mattb4]

The 1-0 Temco wire I just got in has stamped on it the insulation rating of 105C (along with size) while the replaced cable had no markings on it. I agree the undersized copper wire is not going to melt it just heats up more on carrying amperage than larger wire would.

When I first started playing around with solar I looked for and bought the cheapest components I could find that met specifications. I simply was not aware that some of the things like copper wire had inferior or even fake specifications. Just like I learned that a lot of solar panels being sold on places like Ebay, as a certain wattage, are frauds.

I guess my Rolex watch I got for $15 might be a bit suspect also.

 

[OffGridForGood]

Live and Learn.
"The cable was un-marked"
The only place claiming 1AWG was some website write up...now gone or more likely called something else...laying in wait to lure in the next victim.

 

[Batvette]

I guess my Rolex watch I got for $15 might be a bit suspect also.

Yeah you musta got a cheap fake. I got a real one years ago in TJ for $175.

If you wanna be a baller you gotta have the cash.

(lol)

 

[JRH]

The 1-0 Temco wire I just got in has stamped on it the insulation rating of 105C (along with size) while the replaced cable had no markings on it. I agree the undersized copper wire is not going to melt it just heats up more on carrying amperage than larger wire would.

When I first started playing around with solar I looked for and bought the cheapest components I could find that met specifications. I simply was not aware that some of the things like copper wire had inferior or even fake specifications. Just like I learned that a lot of solar panels being sold on places like Ebay, as a certain wattage, are frauds.

I guess my Rolex watch I got for $15 might be a bit suspect also.

15.00…. Damn I paid 22.00…you gotta line on yer dealer? …Im sure they're real…they say Rolex on the face dial… and it’s on the “interweb do-flotchie thing”.. gotta be real…tell me it’s real.

 

[Tomthumb62]

After trying to find the "good deals" to save some money on what always seems to be stupidly expensive copper wire and cable, I have been quite pleased with both WindyNation and BatteryCablesUSA.com. Both provide high quality, fine strand cables and at least BCUSA lets you choose what kind of lug or other termination (or none and costing a bit less) and the exact length to the inch. And the price is quite reasonable and especially BCUSA has a low flat-rate shipping fee I think it's like $4 or $5.

Because sorting through ebay and amazon to find a good deal otherwise (other than WindyNation...BCUSA afaik doesn't have a presence on the mega online stores and sell only through their website) and ending up with junk just isn't worth my time. Nothing worse than wasting time and money on what LOOKS like quality cable and then having to re-do it all over again or worse, dealing with equipment failure or a fire or even just plain downtime.

When we bought a 2000W inverter from Renogy, it was supposed to come with cables. It didn't and we called. They sent a red and black 4 AWG cables. I called them again and complained that these weren't big enough (they should know better!) and they sent I think 2 AWG. A 2000W 12V inverter can draw up to 200A. At 3 feet each cable (6 feet round trip), with 105C insulation, you should have 1/0 AWG. The 2 AWG cables they sent just "looked" like junk so I put them aside and bought some from Current Connected (who seems to source from WindyNation anyways) which were much better. A couple years went by and I found the 2 AWG ones from Renogy. The lugs were green with corrosion (they had never been installed on anything, not by me anyways), so I decided to cut the lug off. Green corrosion there, too. I cut again and again and again. The whole damn 3 feet of cable was rotten with corrosion. I don't know why or how this happened, but wow, what total junk and I'm glad I never installed it in my system.

I'm so impressed by the quality of cables I've gotten from BatteryCablesUSA (and their prices are quite good) that I won't ever think twice about where I will be ordering cables from again in the future.

 

[Batvette]

If you really dont want to f*** around any city bigger than Podunk will have a welding supply dealer... Like we have Airgas here in San Diego. Welding cable is the best thing you can use, you can put a 2500 degree torch to the insulation and it wont immediately burn. They sell it in black and red up to 4/0. Usually comes in 25-50 foot spools. Dont even really need a fancy crimper if you solder the terminals, a pair of vise grips and a hammer will suffice. Though I still use a $25 hammer crimper before I solder.

 

[JJJJ]

Glad you were able to trouble shoot and sort things out. This process has had plenty of learning curves for me as I have moved through it.

In my plans, wire has been one of the non negotiable items. I am over two years into the process and still working on the solar end of things.

As indicated above, there are a number of excellent sources. I have also found Arizona Wind and Solar reliable. A bit more expensive at times though.

One caution is copper coated aluminum. There are sources, including Amazon that sell this. Great prices can often be a clue...

 

[Tomthumb62]

They sell it in black and red up to 4/0. Usually comes in 25-50 foot spools. Dont even really need a fancy crimper if you solder the terminals, a pair of vise grips and a hammer will suffice. Though I still use a $25 hammer crimper before I solder.

There has been quite the lively debate here on the forum on crimp vs solder vs crimp+solder.

My takeaway from that debate is it depends upon your soldering skills. Crimping is pretty much no-brainer, with the right tool. Like you said a $25 hammer crimper takes all the skill of swinging a hammer to use. And if you have one of those $50-$150 hydraulic crimpers, then you can make some very good (and nice to look at) crimps quite easily.

Soldering, that's a special skill. Since you have it, use it! But I've never been good at it. Maybe I need just more practice. But when I soldered some 2 AWG wire to lugs, the result was I severely overheated the wire. I mean the solder flowed nice deep into the lug and down into the cable, but two problems came out of this effort: 1) The cable now had a very stiff point about 1/2" below the crimp and no longer was flexible (but the cable beyond it was flexible, thus creating a rather weak point...either all stiff or all flexible, but together wasn't good) and 2) the cable got so hot that there was TONS of oxidation/green corrosion not only near the lug, but as deep as 18" down the cable.

So my point here is that IF you're going to solder large gauge wire, make sure you have the skill to do it properly, otherwise you're going to create a potentially dangerous and ineffective cable like I did.

A quality $20 hammer crimper is surprisingly effective, not to mention way faster than soldering. But for 1/0 AWG and thicker, I'd use a small sledge hammer rather than a regular nail hammer.

 

[Batvette]

There has been quite the lively debate here on the forum on crimp vs solder vs crimp+solder.

My takeaway from that debate is it depends upon your soldering skills. Crimping is pretty much no-brainer, with the right tool. Like you said a $25 hammer crimper takes all the skill of swinging a hammer to use. And if you have one of those $50-$150 hydraulic crimpers, then you can make some very good (and nice to look at) crimps quite easily.

Soldering, that's a special skill. Since you have it, use it! But I've never been good at it. Maybe I need just more practice. But when I soldered some 2 AWG wire to lugs, the result was I severely overheated the wire. I mean the solder flowed nice deep into the lug and down into the cable, but two problems came out of this effort: 1) The cable now had a very stiff point about 1/2" below the crimp and no longer was flexible (but the cable beyond it was flexible, thus creating a rather weak point...either all stiff or all flexible, but together wasn't good) and 2) the cable got so hot that there was TONS of oxidation/green corrosion not only near the lug, but as deep as 18" down the cable.

So my point here is that IF you're going to solder large gauge wire, make sure you have the skill to do it properly, otherwise you're going to create a potentially dangerous and ineffective cable like I did.

A quality $20 hammer crimper is surprisingly effective, not to mention way faster than soldering. But for 1/0 AWG and thicker, I'd use a small sledge hammer rather than a regular nail hammer.

To number one. Why did it matter that this "weak point" had now moved from right at the terminal to down the wire from it? Youre going to have a point where flexible wire meets solid no matter what you do and if the wire is moving so much you have to worry about breakage youve got a very strange application. Ive never seen fatigue issues in any of the hundreds of cables Ive installed. The solder that creeps up the cable doesnt just abruptly end, either. Consider it "fades" from solder to no solder as its distributed through strands and actually functions as its own strain relief.
Whenever you solder a terminal like this remember to physically keep the terminal end up and the cable down, heating the upper part of the terminal end first. Apply the heat to that upper end and the solder will always run to it.
Dont be afraid to use a lot of heat, with any solder work its better to get in and get out fast rather than linger too long with insufficient heat. Sometimes Im more comfortable with an immediate cooling source nearby, like a cup of water or soaking wet towel, to minimize damage to surrounding areas. It also makes the job go faster as you neednt wait as long for parts to cool before handling them. 1/0 terminal ends are hot enough to burn you several minutes after soldering. If it makes you feel better you can apply a heat sink about a half inch below the terminal but that also ensures damage to the insulation where you apply the heat sink.
Concern about corrosion is one of the reasons to solder, with solder between the cable and terminal no corrosion can happen between them.
I get what youre saying but I dont believe "I cant do it" or "I dont know how" are legitmate arguments against a necessary process. If they were we would see a lot of unibody cars put together with nuts and bolts, not welded.
Or aircraft assembled without the use of rivets.
The only compromise I regularly see in cables I assemble is some degradation of the insulation near the end but thats solved with good quality heat shrink and only really happens with pvc insulation which welding cable doesnt use.

 

[Batvette]

There has been quite the lively debate here on the forum on crimp vs solder vs crimp+solder.

My takeaway from that debate is it depends upon your soldering skills. Crimping is pretty much no-brainer, with the right tool. Like you said a $25 hammer crimper takes all the skill of swinging a hammer to use. And if you have one of those $50-$150 hydraulic crimpers, then you can make some very good (and nice to look at) crimps quite easily.

Soldering, that's a special skill. Since you have it, use it! But I've never been good at it. Maybe I need just more practice. But when I soldered some 2 AWG wire to lugs, the result was I severely overheated the wire. I mean the solder flowed nice deep into the lug and down into the cable, but two problems came out of this effort: 1) The cable now had a very stiff point about 1/2" below the crimp and no longer was flexible (but the cable beyond it was flexible, thus creating a rather weak point...either all stiff or all flexible, but together wasn't good) and 2) the cable got so hot that there was TONS of oxidation/green corrosion not only near the lug, but as deep as 18" down the cable.

So my point here is that IF you're going to solder large gauge wire, make sure you have the skill to do it properly, otherwise you're going to create a potentially dangerous and ineffective cable like I did.

A quality $20 hammer crimper is surprisingly effective, not to mention way faster than soldering. But for 1/0 AWG and thicker, I'd use a small sledge hammer rather than a regular nail hammer.

Thats exactly the hammer crimper I use now. I dont like the way it leaves a "+" imprint. Otherwise its effective enough.

 

[Tomthumb62]

To number one. Why did it matter that this "weak point" had now moved from right at the terminal to down the wire from it? Youre going to have a point where flexible wire meets solid no matter what you do and if the wire is moving so much you have to worry about breakage youve got a very strange application. Ive never seen fatigue issues in any of the hundreds of cables Ive installed.

Whenever you solder a terminal like this remember to physically keep the terminal end up and the cable down, heating the upper part of the terminal end first. Apply the heat to that upper end and the solder will always run to it.
Concern about corrosion is one of the reasons to solder, with solder between the cable and terminal no corrosion can happen between them.
I get what youre saying but I dont believe "I cant do it" or "I dont know how" are legitmate arguments against a necessary process. If they were we would see a lot of unibody cars put together with nuts and bolts, not welded.
Or aircraft assembled without the use of rivets.
The only compromise I regularly see in cables I assemble is

All good points.

As for the "weak point", what I feel is the place of flexible cable to a rigid lug is noticeably less rigid/stiff than were a stiff solder-soaked cable meets the flex cable. Not sure I can describe in words, but it certainly didn't "feel right", whereas I don't have the same concern at the lug end of a properly crimped cable. Also the lug end isn't going to see much flex...the lug is bolted down, whereas 4" down my cable there was a very odd stiffness where the solder had gotten down into but since it's an insulation-wrapped cable it looks/appears it should be flexible when it really isn't. If I forget about it or someone else who doesn't know this, I/they could try bending the cable in such a way that could damage that flex/stiff junction. Not as likely to happen at a lug end for several reasons.

Good tips on keeping the lug end up for soldering. And I agree I can/could learn. But why? What advantage is this? How long is that learning curve going to be? And how many expensive cables and lugs am I have to going to hacksaw into to inspect my work before I feel like I have gotten good enough at soldering large gauge copper cable and lugs to feel confident I can trust it to be a safe and efficient conduit of electricity? I see no benefit, really, since crimping is so easy and it just WORKS, every time.

As for corrosion...I don't agree that solder is better. Perhaps IF you are very good at soldering (hence learning curve just mentioned). But with crimps it can be very very good: Remove just enough insulation on the wire so that 1/8" or less of copper is exposed when the crimp is complete. Then use one or two layers of quality marine-grade heat shrink (the kind with the heat-activated adhesive). This creates quite a good solid waterproof and air-resistant seal around the crimp. And if you're in a marine environment, you probably want to be using tinned copper anyways. Recently I had to replace the 3/8" lugs on a 1/0 AWG cable with 5/16" ones. So I took the time to cut into both the lugs and cable in two different spots with a hacksaw to inspect for corrosion. Zilch, clean as a whistle. I had used a 6 ton hydraulic crimper and the cable inside the lug was solid all through...a good cold weld. The marine-grade heat shrink also kept everything sealed. These were lugs that are 100% sealed on the very terminal end (closest to the bolt hole), so no oxygen can get in. The cable is in essence sealed tight from water for sure and probably most air (if not all, but no idea how to test that).

I don't disagree with you that soldering can be effective. It's just a skill, like any skill, that not everyone has taken the time to develop. Electricity can kill and/or start fires. My example of corroded cables and crimps due to my really bad solder job could have resulted in overheated cables, equipment or a fire, had I not known that my solder job was so bad and shouldn't be trusted. I didn't have a whole spool of cable to practice with nor many extra lugs. And I learned that crimping worked extremely well.

There was a great post on this forum some time ago (during the crimp vs solder debate) where some guy who had done industrial electrical work shared his story of comparing the results of crimp-only vs crimp+solder joints. He said the crimp-only joints heated up quite a bit but the crimp+solder ones stayed cool. This was on a large scale...hundreds of amps flowing at tens of thousands of volts. Not the kind of of electricity a home user or RV/van person is going to be dealing with. My 12v system will likely never seen more than about 120A at peak and more like 6-10A sustained...over 2AWG and 1/0AWG cables short-length cables rated for 105C temperatures.

 

[Batvette]

You dont need to hacksaw terminals to see if your solder work is sound. Just look at the appearance of the solder, if its all bright and shiny youre good to go.
Ive a feeling you could have it down in 5 minutes witnessing someone doing it right then instructing you as they watched you do it.
I had the benefit of taking a high school electronics class back in the late 70s as well as a couple of weeks long school in the Navy to do micro wire bundle repair on aircraft.
However none of that was relevent to battery cables, all small wire with irons. I had to figure out battery cables with big torches on my own.
Funny thing, in the navy we were only issued those silly isotip ni cad battery poweed solder tools and were supposed to use them exclusively. Hot off the charger they would barely solder 18g wire in the shop. Outside on the flight line or on a windy carrier deck, forget it.
My supervisor who had over 20 years in just carried a bic lighter and used that.
Since you cant smoke on ships any more doubt he would get away with that now.
Weller made 3 and 4 AA cell irons, they were useless outside. On fresh batteries you could tie down the trigger with a rubber band for a few minutes it might melt solder if you were lucky.
Battery cables I prefer a propane torch with a full size head. You can use a hobby/pencil torch but its slower and doesnt always heat the whole area enough at once. At full throttle and a full tank it will do the job.
Ive used MAPP gas but its a bit of overkill.

 

[Tomthumb62]

You dont need to hacksaw terminals to see if your solder work is sound. Just look at the appearance of the solder, if its all bright and shiny youre good to go.
Ive a feeling you could have it down in 5 minutes witnessing someone doing it right then instructing you as they watched you do it.
I had the benefit of taking a high school electronics class back in the late 70s as w

Again, I don't disagree with you. But crimping just works and is faster. Even if I were a master solder-er, I don't believe I could do it faster than crimping. Depends upon your use case. I see zero benefit to making solder connections in my use case. If I were running 300A loads 24/7, I would either learn how to solder better or double up the cabling with good crimps.

 

[JJJJ]

Ended up with two hydraulic crimpers. Have worked very nicely.

When it came to BMS leads had help soldering the leads. They have worked out well also.

 

[Batvette]

Again, I don't disagree with you. But crimping just works and is faster. Even if I were a master solder-er, I don't believe I could do it faster than crimping. Depends upon your use case. I see zero benefit to making solder connections in my use case. If I were running 300A loads 24/7, I would either learn how to solder better or double up the cabling with good crimps.

If its not a mobile application theyre probably fine. However thermal expansion can loosen stuff too.
If I had a powerful home system I would scan it regularly with a thermal cam.

 

[Batvette]

Glad you were able to trouble shoot and sort things out. This process has had plenty of learning curves for me as I have moved through it.

In my plans, wire has been one of the non negotiable items. I am over two years into the process and still working on the solar end of things.

As indicated above, there are a number of excellent sources. I have also found Arizona Wind and Solar reliable. A bit more expensive at times though.

One caution is copper coated aluminum. There are sources, including Amazon that sell this. Great prices can often be a clue...

I picked up a roll of 12g CCA speaker wire at a thrift store without noticing the CCA on the label. I would have known what it meant but just didnt critically inspect my purchase as I should have.
Im not going to use it on anything for any reason. Dont even want to give it away.
The pitfalls of thrifting.
On the flip side I still havent used up the 200ft spool of made in usa 12g direct burial low voltage cable I got from another thrift store for $5 less. ($10).
Thick copper, many strands, looks like heavy lamp cord but has a thicker UV resistant insulation.

Which reminds me of a question.

If you have 2 conductor lamp cord, it typically has one side with lettering the other side has ribs.

Using it for speakers or DC, which side is positive?

This may need its own thread.

 

[Tomthumb62]

Battery cables I prefer a propane torch with a full size head. You can use a hobby/pencil torch but its slower and doesnt always heat the whole area enough at once. At full throttle and a full tank it will do the job.
Ive used MAPP gas but its a bit of overkill.

Yeah it was propane torch. The kind that screws onto one of those dark green Coleman 1-lb propane tanks. Not sure if that's what you consider "full size head" or a hobby torch. I think I simply overheated the wire. It probably would've only taken 1-2 seconds to heat up the wire, but I "torched it good" for probably 10-15 seconds (or maybe longer, I can't recall exactly) and it just cooked the copper wire and oxidized it to hell. No amount of solder skill (or crimping) is going to fix that! And you're right, if I had someone to teach me exactly how to do it right, maybe I would be more likely to solder, but I didn't and learned quickly it wasn't as easy as I thought and so crimps are just fine.

What I learned in building v.2.0 of our trailer's solar system was there is different levels of build quality. On one end it's undersized wires, with poor crimps (or wrong-sized wire nut or God forbid only electrical tape holding twisted wires together). On the other end, it's taking 10x as long to make connections, using overpriced cable, buying $1000 worth of speciality crimp tools, wire cutters, wire splicers, wire strippers and dozens of different splices, terminal ends, ferrules, lugs, gold plating the solder connections (just kidding), etc. My v2 build was somewhere in the middle this time whereas my first version wasn't horrible, but certainly not to the quality of the new one. I did end up buying some specialty tools and connectors (I've fallen in love with ferrules and the crimp tool!), but didn't go overboard and I could strip any wire with just a pocket knife without needing a special $30-50 tool, though I'm sure the tool would've made the stripping easier and faster.