Beginning installation of Schneider XW Pro/EG4ll batteries V1/MPPT 100A 600V OFF-GRID only questions

[wheisenburg]

Good catch. I don't know think you're supposed to redesignate wires that small. The minimum gauge is probably in the 8-10 awg region.

I'm not sure it's code, but I consider it a good safety practice.

 

[400bird]

I'm not sure it's code, but I consider it a good safety practice.

I agree they're better off redesignate with a new color. I was saying that I'm pretty sure that NEC says you're just supposed to use the correct color wire below certain gauge. I'm still not sure what the threshold is, maybe 6awg is the smallest that can be redesignated.

On #12, you are expected to use the correct color wire, not reassign.
That said, red tape is better than just leaving it.

 

[wheisenburg]

I agree they're better off redesignate with a new color. I was saying that I'm pretty sure that NEC says you're just supposed to use the correct color wire below certain gauge. I'm still not sure what the threshold is, maybe 6awg is the smallest that can be redesignated.

On #12, you are expected to use the correct color wire, not reassign.
That said, red tape is better than just leaving it.

I know it is standard industry practice to use 12-2 nonmetallic cable (better known as romex) for 240 only circuits. So you get a white and a black. Using the "correct" color isn't really an option. Running 12-3 just to have the right color is not required by code. The code may require using the correct color when using individual conductors below a certain size in a conduit.

i did a little research. Apparently, reidentifying these white wires in a cable used to be optional "if the usage was obvious". Newer versions of the code now require the white wires to be reidentified. It is also true that many electricians don't do this and many inspectors don't enforce it. I think it's a good practice. Essentially on the load end where someone might think there was 120 volts on the wire.

 

[SniperX]

On the Schneider ALL the neutral lugs are internally tied together. Generally you would have a "First means of disconnect" upstream of the Schneider. In this case where you are feeding a panel from the Schneider the ground neutral bond should really be upstream from the Schneider not in the panel that it is feeding. It the transfer switch is becoming the first means of disconnect and that is where the ground neutral bond should be located. The wire going to the actual building ground should be relocated to the transfer switch. The "Bonding" screw should then be removed in the panel that the Schneider is feeding. That panel has become a sub panel. It does appear that the ground and neutral wires in the panel have been kept separate, so there should be little work to do in that panel.

One important item to be aware of when running a wire from the ground in the transfer switch to the grounding rod it that this must either be a continuous unbroken bare copper wire or it must be spliced in a way that is permeant and irreversible such as a crimp. A wire where you could loosen and change the connection is not acceptable. I don't have perfect knowledge of the code, but you should check out the requirements on these "Building Grounding Conductors".

Digital Codes

ICC Digital Codes is the largest provider of model codes, custom codes and standards used worldwide to construct safe, sustainable, affordable and resilient structures.

codes.iccsafe.org

So you are saying to take the MAIN ground (green wire) coming from outside out of the panel and put it straight into the transfer switch and then run a separate grounding wire from the transfer switch back to the panel? Take the green screw out of the MAIN panel where it is screwed in now? How would I get a G-N bond then in the transfer switch? How would the N connect with ground inside the transfer switch?

Secondly, I am having issues with grounding lugs. I thought (before you made this suggestion) I needed a three position grounding lug (currently I have two but I doubled up until I could find a 3 spot lug) I really don't want to spend close to $100 on a 3 position grounding lug. Can you stack grounding lugs?

Lastly, these are picture of what I did for grounding outside. I used a #6 ground wire that had insulation on it (and then grounded it to the building before coming inside with it. Can you tell me if that is ok? It is continuous with just the jacket stripped where it connects to the acorns. The point of entry is one of those connections that you have a rubber gasket inside so when you tighten it, it seals it. @timselectric I wondered if you can go take a look at what I have done and give my your expertise?

 

[hwy17]

I believe you're always allowed to phase tape romex and other multiconductor cable assemblies. The 4 awg rule only applies to thhn or other single conductor type wires.

 

[SniperX]

This is nit picky and you will find many panels where this is not done, but when using a 12-2 Romex cable for a 240 volt only circuit (no neutral needed), you really should "Redesignate" the white wires using red electrical tape. This makes clear in the panel (and even more important on the receiving side of the cable) that the white wire is being used as a hot wire and is not a neutral. Now most experienced people looking at a white wire on an air conditioner are going to understand that this is a hot wire. A casual DIY home owner may assume that the white wire is a neutral. It takes only a few seconds, and it could save a life.

I wrapped them in black but did not update the photos. Is black ok? @timselectric Can you chime in please? I had 12-2 Romex cable (white/black wires) and I wrapped the white wires in black so no one confused with it being neutral. Is black ok or should I change to red tape? First photo is the one where I wrapped the white wires on the first and second breakers on the left. Second photo shows original. I moved the neutral coming from my transfer switch to the main neutral lug in the panel (see second picture)

 

[hwy17]

I wrapped them in black but did not update the photos. Is black ok?

Black is more confusing than red but I don't know if it's technically disallowed.

 

[SniperX]

Black is more confusing than red but I don't know if it's technically disallowed.

My head... My electrician said to wrap in black and technically, black is hot. I can rewrap in red I guess.

 

[dougbert]

My head... My electrician said to wrap in black and technically, black is hot. I can rewrap in red I guess.

i do red for the 2nd hot

 

[SniperX]

i do red for the 2nd hot

Off to find the red tape. Thanks!

 

[dougbert]

I also have my black hots on the top of the break with red on the bottom.

your Panel has black on the left main input lug at the top of the busbar, and your red hots on the top of the two breakers. that puts red on the black (left) busbar

when having 2 or more inverters, phase consistency must be kept, L1 must be connected to L1 and L2 to L2. the simple color pattern of black on left input lug and on top of breaker helps to do that. Square D. I don't know if other brands following Square D

you can reverse colors, no problem, just be consistent

 

[hwy17]

your Panel has black on the left input lug, and your red hots on the top of the two breakers. that puts red on the black busbar

That's borderline obsessive lol.

(Edit: I understand you're talking about the phasing required for paralleling though, yeah.)

 

[SniperX]

I also have my black hots on the top of the break with red on the bottom.

your Panel has black on the left input lug, and your red hots on the top of the two breakers. that puts red on the black busbar

You lost me there...I get the black hots on the top of the breaker and the red below it. What do you mean by "Your panel has black on the left input lug, and your red hots on the top of two breakers..." Should I move the red below the blacks like you have yours on the bottom left and right breakers?

 

[dougbert]

That's borderline obsessive lol.

maybe, but if using EG4 6000XP and 2 fedback breakers, mixing the hots screws things up. Just being consistent then with the main lugs. just following a common pattern of deployment to reduce issues

 

[dougbert]

You lost me there...I get the black hots on the top of the breaker and the red below it. What do you mean by "Your panel has black on the left input lug, and your red hots on the top of two breakers..." Should I move the red below the blacks like you have yours on the bottom left and right breakers?

look at your pics, at the top of the panel. the two lugs on the "back plane panel". Black hot is installed on the left lug which matches the left busbar.

busbar stubs starting at the top, row one is on the left busbar.

 

[SniperX]

look at your pics, at the top of the panel. the two lugs on the "back plane panel". Black hot is installed on the left lug which matches the left busbar.

busbar stubs starting at the top, row one is on the left busbar.

So do this?

 

[dougbert]

So do this?

yes

to get a feel for things, turn off power to panel and use a VOM to check which main lug connects to which busbar. helps to see that

 

[hwy17]

I don't think you have any sources or loads here that are dependent on the kind of phase matching Dougbert is talking about.

I don't pay any attention to matching my red and blacks with red and black on the bus bar.

Whether one wants to get in the habit as just "good practice" is another question.

 

[dougbert]

I don't think you have any sources or loads here that are dependent on the kind of phase matching Dougbert is talking about.

I don't pay any attention to matching my red and blacks with red and black on the bus bar.

agreed, it will work fine. for myself I am helping my son with his two EG4 6000XPs and this is how I am teaching him for exactly the phase matching issue.

Since the XW Pro does the phase matching inside the PDP and only one conductor comes out to the panel it doesn't matter really either

just me, being consistent so I don't flockup when it does matter

 

[SniperX]

yes

to get a feel for things, turn off power to panel and use a VOM to check which main lug connects to which busbar. helps to see that

I understand what you are saying about consistency, and yes, I would like that. I appreciate you pointing it out.