California introduces bill to assess rooftop solar net metering

[Skypower]

Can you give us a clue what components the "cheapest low quality system" for NEM3 consists off ?
So that should include panels, inverter & batteries, right ?


So he is basically suggesting a replacement with components he trust but also remounted on locations where it does make sense ?
The original cost and refit costs will never make them come out ahead is what you are saying ?

Every situation is different, there are too many variables to make a blanket statement “where does it makes sense”.
Removal, repair of original mounting, disposal, new permits (technically a new system), cost for audit and preparation of bid which discloses ROI (which he must eat when the owner freaks and declines). Due to the small footprint available including mandatory roof edge/ridge setbacks, wrong exposure, roof type, some situations just aren’t cost effective. Since he’s a small operator, so much of his time is spent on estimating, preparation of bid with the extreme likelihood that the customer rejects the bid that he just doesn’t waste his time on it. He’d rather be working on a paying project. That’s usually a larger home, with acreage and a clean slate. Some parts of the Bay Area are an automatic no bid because of the delay for permits is out so far out that the customer won’t wait or keeps calling for an update. I’ve been his sounding board for years..

 

[HighDesertOffgrid]

Funny, cause here solar and wind is the cheapest form of energy generation -by far-

Which can only mean your other sources of power are phenomenally expensive.

 

[houseofancients]

Which can only mean your other sources of power are phenomenally expensive.

No not really..
Well consumer pricing is , but we are talking grid scale here ..

If it wasn't for enormous taxation per kWh , on a regular bases ( last year over 420 hours during the day, electric prices even went negative, and those days are ever increasing).
Such a shame taxes add 0.18c/kWh and 21% vat on top of pricing + taxes

 

[Skypower]

Suppose:
Instead of roof top solar on your new home, you can, as an alternative, buy a share in a utiltiy scale PV farm representing the same kW PV size.
The share attaches financially to the home, and transfers with the home ownership if/when sold.
We get (as @Hedges pointed out) x3 efficiency, and all maint and warranty is handled cost effectively by the solar farm, no risk of fire to your home either.
Too easy?

You know that totally makes sense…until you have to include the meddling bureaucracies and power companies that don’t want to lose control.

 

[hwy17]

Funny, cause here solar and wind is the cheapest form of energy generation -by far-

Utility scale solar is cheap here, it is specifically residential that is most expensive. And that's just the installed cost, then these people want us to credit them $.40 a kwh for their exports.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

Whenever I see prices in the States for domestic installed solar, it blows my mind. Compare that to Australia for example. It's a factor 2 or more difference even after your Federal Tax Credit. Even most of Europe is way cheaper installed than the prices I see in the States, and that's with 20% or more VAT.

 

[HighDesertOffgrid]

Whenever I see prices in the States for domestic installed solar, it blows my mind. Compare that to Australia for example. It's a factor 2 or more difference even after your Federal Tax Credit. Even most of Europe is way cheaper installed than the prices I see in the States, and that's with 20% or more VAT.

That seems to be the way of things subsidized and mandated.

 

[HighDesertOffgrid]

Such a shame taxes add 0.18c/kWh and 21% vat on top of pricing + taxes

Ouch! Some parts of the US pay less than $0.18 per kw total.

 

[houseofancients]

Ouch! Some parts of the US pay less than $0.18 per kw total.

Which means power is subsidized there

 

[HighDesertOffgrid]

Which means power is subsidized there

Primarily coal, nat gas, and nuclear. Not sure how and if they are subsidized.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

Such a shame taxes add 0.18c/kWh and 21% vat on top of pricing + taxes

Compared to Finland: typically people pay around 10 to 13 cents per kWh or so, with about 2.5 cents on top of that for taxes. We're close to being the cheapest place in the EU for power:

Finland soon to see Europe’s cheapest electricity – analyst | Montel News - English

And one of the cheapest for transmission as well:

Transmitting electricity in Finland is still the second most affordable in Europe in 2021

www.fingrid.fi

 

[houseofancients]

Not sure what happened to my post, but here is some data provided by powerco's here




And here's the days of negative energy prices

 

[Hedges]

Good. Lazard's consistently shows professionally installed residential solar is the most expensive form of energy, society should not apply perverse incentives towards further investment in it.

Turnkey rooftop PV around $3/W means around $0.10/kWh, quite cheap compare to retail in California.
But use it or lose it, rather get a credit < $0.05/kWh for backfeed, so a losing proposition to install rooftop PV in excess of baseline consumption. Which could be a fairly large amount, if you run A/C most of the time half the year

If the installers can bring their pricing back down to earth, then maybe it will be economic.

$2/W or more in labor. Compare to Australia, where turnkey labor + hardware is only $1/W
Something about no plans, no permits "Just Do It" as I understand.

Funny, cause here solar and wind is the cheapest form of energy generation -by far-

It is here, too (while the sun shines). But we're talking about $0.02/kWh wholesale PV vs. $0.04/kW for something else.
But including distribution, we pay retail rates in the $0.40 to $0.60/kWh range.

 

[hwy17]

Turnkey rooftop PV around $3/W means around $0.10/kWh, quite cheap compare to retail in California.

Great, install it for yourself and use it for yourself. If people want to export, they should take the market rate and not mooch for more. The grid is not a battery and it's not free.

 

[upnorthandpersonal]

Something about no plans, no permits "Just Do It" as I understand.

You don't e.g. need an engineering cert/drawings (or whatever you want to call it) to put solar panels on a roof here since houses are designed to take a snow load - therefor you already have the assurance that the roof is fine to accept panels. You need a permit, but it's essentially just a formality (just like most permits here, and not expensive).

 

[houseofancients]

You don't e.g. need an engineering cert/drawings (or whatever you want to call it) to put solar panels on a roof here since houses are designed to take a snow load - therefor you already have the assurance that the roof is fine to accept panels. You need a permit, but it's essentially just a formality (just like most permits here, and not expensive).

Same here. .

I think in the us the many lobby clubs made sure solar is expensive to install, so every mouth in the chain gets fed well

 

[HighDesertOffgrid]

But we're talking about $0.02/kWh wholesale PV vs. $0.04/kW for something else.

Is that residential pv vs other wholesale?

 

[houseofancients]

Great, install it for yourself and use it for yourself. If people want to export, they should take the market rate and not mooch for more. The grid is not a battery and it's not free.

So wait..
You pay the same transport and connection fees right ?

That should include all cost that entails just that, do there for the grid isn't free, and, at least here, are outside netmetering

And there we have it , at least in my mind, powerco's never invested in storage, only in generation, which is where the real problem lies

No investment ( or well planned investment) for years
Profits went to management and share holders, while part of that needed to be invested

 

[hwy17]

So wait..
You pay the same transport and connection fees right ?

One of the problems in California is that we pay almost no connection fees. About $10. It does not cover the real fixed and standby costs of the grid which would be more like $100.

 

[hwy17]

And there we have it , at least in my mind, powerco's never invested in storage, only in generation, which is where the real problem lies

The power co investment = the ratepayers investment. I don't see why non solar ratepayers have to invest in solving solar customer's problems. Natural gas power doesn't need storage.