diy solar

diy solar

Do my new blue cells need to be packed together ?

It takes a lot of amps in/out to make the Cells heat up. This whole preoccupation on the cells heating is a bit much really. Has ANYONE caused their LFP's to reach or exceed the normal specs ? Possibly MAYBE in the most extreme of situations. This isn't like Freeze Protection which is another beast altogether.

Typical Temps for LFP
Charging Temperature 0℃~55℃ (32F ~ 131F)

Running cells at 131F, or even 100F, for long periods is a great way to cut their lifespan way down.

Even a small amount of internal heating can amass a large heat reservoir in a big block of dense metal and liquid.

Some packs are installed in locations without active climate control.

Leaving air gaps is common sense: once you do have the opportunity to bring the ambient temp down after a hot day, the cells themselves can cool much faster that way.
 
So what are we concluding? I am putting 8 280ah cells in my RV. They will be in the living space.

I started building a box to stack them up vertically. With 2 side by side the narrow way on their sides. But this thread suggests that putting them on their sides is not the best. The trade off is easier storage of toilet paper, beer cans etc. In other words, if I have to put them right side up, they take up more floor space and make it more cumbersome to throw 6-packs in the closet. Thoughts?

Heat: The panels will deliver at most .2C and the loads less. I am not too concerned about them freezing, because I don't want the water bay to freeze either. I am more concerned about heat. If I am off on a hike in 90 degree weather, the interior can get pretty hot. I was thinking I would put 2" of pink insulating foam around the cells in the box to keep them cool. The idea is that the cells will be at the average day/night temperature with that insulation.

My thinking was that I would monitor the temperature and later decide whether any active or passive cooling, or a heat pad, should be added.

I am concluding from this thread that I don't need to clamp them but should I be terribly concerned about the cells flexing and wearing out the terminals if placed snugly in a box with 2" of pink foam under them?

Actually maybe I should make an aluminum frame for the batteries and put them in the water bay. The water bay always has 110 gallons of water (either fresh or stinky) to be a nice temperature moderator.
 
Last edited:
Running cells at 131F, or even 100F, for long periods is a great way to cut their lifespan way down.

Even a small amount of internal heating can amass a large heat reservoir in a big block of dense metal and liquid.

Some packs are installed in locations without active climate control.

Leaving air gaps is common sense: once you do have the opportunity to bring the ambient temp down after a hot day, the cells themselves can cool much faster that way.
Cells need to be restrained as a group to prevent damage to the internal structure or posts of the cell from vibration .

A tip put forward from an experienced member here is the usage of horseshoe shaped "builder shims" It is discussed here and possibly elsewhere. This gets a solid built pack with airflow.
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/x...lifepo4-cells-purchase-review.3850/post-61117
 
Side clamping
SOURCE: http://liionbms.com/php/prismatic_tips.php#Side_clamping
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Li-ion cells expand as their State Of Charge reaches or passes 100 %.
The pressure is not due to the act of charging, nor to heating; it's the state of being fully charged that results in high pressure.
The expansion is due to mechanical expansion of the active materials, and to gases released when the cells is full, which are reabsorbed during discharge.)
A cell may be damaged if this expansion is not contained (due to layer separation)
  • On one end, cylindrical cell inherently contain that expansion by virtue of their shape
  • On the other end, pouch cells do not contain that expansion at all, as their walls are soft
  • Prismatic cells are somewhere in between, as they do have a case, but it is not strong enough to fully contain the expansion
At what point do the cells expand, and what pressure do they exert on their walls?
It depends on the cell's design; some manufacturer's cells expand noticeably at 100 % SOC, and some only if they are grossly overcharged.
We tested a CALB cell, and found no change in the pressure exerted on its walls, even when overcharged to 4.2 V (their maximum voltage is 100 %).

Prismatic cell in a pressure test fixture

Prismatic cell pressure test fixture

Therefore, we feel that, when properly protected by a BMS, these CALB cells do not need a constraint, at least not at room temperature.
(This test was performed at room temperature. We don't know what would happen if these cells were both hot and completely full.)

We do not know how cells from other manufacturers behave; unless you have tested your cells, and discovered that they do not expand at 100 % SOC, you must constrain them.

Also, if you are daring enough to use Li-ion cells without a BMS that shuts down charging when any cell is full, then constraining a cell might (might) help it survive the abuse of overcharging.

The expansion of a stack of prismatic cells is contained by:
  • Placing hard plates on either side of the stack
  • Squeezing the stack of cells with the plates as far as possible (use threaded rods and screw in the nuts as far as they go)
  • Clamping the lot by keeping the threaded rods in place or with metal packing straps

Prismatic cell clamps
Prismatic cell clamps

Prismatic cells clamped with metal plates and straps
(Left: Honda S2000 Electric Vehicle Conversion. Right: Casa Del Gato)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Consider that EVERYONE has an Opinion. It is up to the individual to asses those Opinions and use Critical Thinking to determine which is most accurate & correct. Ultimately it IS YOUR INVESTMENT and YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to determine what is the best for you.
 
It seems the easy solution to prevent the need for clamping is have a little larger battery than you actually need and charge to 90%.

I am assuming the aluminum cells have a similar characteristic as the CALB cells.
 
It seems the easy solution to prevent the need for clamping is have a little larger battery than you actually need and charge to 90%.

I am assuming the aluminum cells have a similar characteristic as the CALB cells.

OR as @Steve_S pointed out - just a good BMS that shuts down at 100% SOC or below ... it honestly takes allot to make these cells swell -- i have accidentally had a charger run away during the evening while testing and came back a few hours later and literally the battery was hotter then hell - but virtually NO swelling -- with that said though -- it had released its "gas" and the room smelt a little weird (yes weird is a technical word) and thats how we knew that battery was gone -- BUT it was not swollen ...
 
So what are we concluding? I am putting 8 280ah cells in my RV. They will be in the living space.

I started building a box to stack them up vertically. With 2 side by side the narrow way on their sides. But this thread suggests that putting them on their sides is not the best. The trade off is easier storage of toilet paper, beer cans etc. In other words, if I have to put them right side up, they take up more floor space and make it more cumbersome to throw 6-packs in the closet. Thoughts?

Heat: The panels will deliver at most .2C and the loads less. I am not too concerned about them freezing, because I don't want the water bay to freeze either. I am more concerned about heat. If I am off on a hike in 90 degree weather, the interior can get pretty hot. I was thinking I would put 2" of pink insulating foam around the cells in the box to keep them cool. The idea is that the cells will be at the average day/night temperature with that insulation.

My thinking was that I would monitor the temperature and later decide whether any active or passive cooling, or a heat pad, should be added.

I am concluding from this thread that I don't need to clamp them but should I be terribly concerned about the cells flexing and wearing out the terminals if placed snugly in a box with 2" of pink foam under them?

Actually maybe I should make an aluminum frame for the batteries and put them in the water bay. The water bay always has 110 gallons of water (either fresh or stinky) to be a nice temperature moderator.

You will be FINE ... technically the LFPs can be stacked any which way to Sunday - with that said - for anything that we have thats moving - or vibrating - or shaking (like an RV) we try to store them standing up -- have no idea if there's a real reason or if thats just out of convenience .. BUT for an RV I would NOT have any concerns at all the way you want to do it ... I will tell you though that the manufacturers that we work with said for RV's though that 280aH 3.2 should be the largest you go with due to the vibrations and plate size and blah blah blah ...
 
OR as @Steve_S pointed out - just a good BMS that shuts down at 100% SOC or below ... it honestly takes allot to make these cells swell -- i have accidentally had a charger run away during the evening while testing and came back a few hours later and literally the battery was hotter then hell - but virtually NO swelling -- with that said though -- it had released its "gas" and the room smelt a little weird (yes weird is a technical word) and thats how we knew that battery was gone -- BUT it was not swollen ...

....but maybe there was swelling before the gas was released.
 
So seems like we are having a bit of a consensus, so this are my conclusions right now:
  • Our solar systems with lower rates of charge / discharge are not that hard on the batteries, so expansion of the cells its probably not common. Also it can be avoided by not charging the cells up to 100%, maybe leave them at 90 -95%.
  • Clamping the cells its probably not necessary, although some mechanism for preventing movement between cells its highly advice able on mobile systems (RV, marine, etc).
  • Shouldn't worry that much about the heat if the demand on the cells its low, but a design with some space for airflow in the cells would increase their lifespan, specially in hot climates
About the positioning, im still not 100% sure. A lot of people say that they will be Ok in any position (Except upside down), howemever there is controversial data, for example this bit from Victron Energy:

3 InstallationNote: Batteries must always be installed in an upright position.

Although there exists a small amount of a liquid organic (but not acidic) electrolyte inside each Li-ion cell that comprises Dragonfly Energy packs, the electrolyte is fully soaked within the nanopowder electrodes that fully fill the sealed cells. Therefore, the orientation of the cells is not relevant to the safety and performance of the batteries.

I just got a reply from Keegan and tech guy Han from CALB. Tech says A, B, C are all ok. So, first-hand response from manufacturer trumps myths.
wink.gif


quote:

Hi Mr.Dan
Mounting horizontally is acceptable, because the safety valve on the battery will make sure that the electrolyte will not leak even you put them horizontally.

Best Regards

So the vertical mounting design could still work? i think so but still not completely sure.
 
So seems like we are having a bit of a consensus, so this are my conclusions right now:
...
So the vertical mounting design could still work? i think so but still not completely sure.
Agreed. I am going to mount mine in the water bay and keep them upright. This requires that I make an aluminum frame to suspend the batteries from the ceiling. That will not only free up the space for other storage, but will put the batteries next to the moderating temp of the 110 gals of water down there. Although, the 2 huge frame rails that go through there are probably damn good heat conductors. Regardless, I have to keep the water liquid too.
 
The 8x 150ah cells sitting on my desk were lightly clamped together in a row and slowly discharged to ~10%. I noticed the bar clamps loosening on discharge. I've charged back up to 3.3v so far and removed the clamps given the discussion... if people think these cells don't swell and pressurize/move slightly given the opportunity you're crazy.
 
Last edited:
I thought the 280ah spec sheet had a higher number of cycles when you had them compressed.
 
So according to manufacturer, almost 30% more cycles with the addition of presure under same conditions:

The battery cell is under the action of 300kgf
force ,the battery cell is under the action of preset
300kgf force, after standard charged and 60mins rest,
discharge to 2.5V cutoff with the current of 1.0C(A)
at (25±2) °C, and then start the next cycle, end with
the capacity decrease to 80% of the initial capacity.
The number of cycles is defined as the cycle life of
the battery.

The datasheet its recent, im starting to consider clamping the cells!, for 5 or 10% wouldnt be worth it, but 30% its a lot!
 
The extended cycle life with clamping is estimated in the context of a "standard charge," which in their definition is 0.5C, ramped to 0.05C at 3.65V. That's running these cells up reasonably fast to a pretty high SOC.

Observed results suggest that charging to a slightly lower SOC (say, 90 or 95%) will also deliver much of that life, with or without compression. Maybe that's, in part or in whole, because the battery is not being mechanically stressed at slightly lower levels!

Put another way: if you're willing to run your pack a bit more conservatively, you probably will get little benefit from clamping. Which is, I think, what many of us have suspected/suggested/observed for some time.
 
"The battery cell is under the action of 300kgf force ,the battery cell is under the action of preset 300kgf force, after standard charged and 60mins rest, discharge to 2.5V cutoff with the current of 1.0C(A) at (25±2) ℃, and then start the next cycle, end with the capacity decrease to 80% of the initial capacity. The number of cycles is defined as the cycle life of the battery. "

Are we to assume that the cells are clamped in one direction? Or all 3?

FWIW: I do not plan to do any clamping, I buy the argument from nebster that if I am rarely doing more than .2C, it just won't matter. Although, that's not based on much of anything scientific.
 
The spec sheet gives tolerance on only one dimension.
so bookends.
 
Back
Top