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Do my new blue cells need to be packed together ?

Aussiecroc

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My new 206 amp hour CATL cells arrived today. Can I leave an air gap for cooling between them 2 cm? or should they be face to face? I can adjust the terminal link size. The guy I bought them off recommended I put 1 mm thick plastic between them to stop the blue wearing off when RV moves. Ideas please.
 
Looks reasonable to me, if you can fabricate it.

One other thing I noticed on mine: the bus bars are going to add a lot of rigidity to the top of the pack after you torque them down. You want to make sure your spacers do a good job of holding the cells in place, themselves, so the bus bars don't end up doing all the work and transferring loads into the cell terminals. I doubt they were designed to handle much lateral force.
 
You want to make sure your spacers do a good job of holding the cells in place, themselves, so the bus bars don't end up doing all the work and transferring loads into the cell terminals.
Additionally, if your bus bars are slotted (mine are), you may want to measure the amount of slot you have to spare and make that your inter-cell spacing. This would allow you to use the bus bars without modification (mine don't have a lot of material to spare out on the ends).

If you are (re)making custom bus bars this is all moot of course...
 
You won't see that much heat from LFP with such light draw, they'll only warm up when you pull serious amps or do hi amp charging which isn't likely. Will uses 3M 2-Way Tape to stick cells together and them straps cells together.... Also if you read through the Nordyk designs doc's on building packs, they are blocked together as well.
 
Seems there are 2 conflicting things here.

1) space the cells for airflow, keep them cool, especially at high C rates
2) compress the cells, to top them bulging, especially at high C rates
 
Seems there are 2 conflicting things here.

1) space the cells for airflow, keep them cool, especially at high C rates
2) compress the cells, to top them bulging, especially at high C rates

Yes, it seems there must be a balance between a) ventilation and b) pressure to squeeze the electrons. I have wondered how the Fortune battery manages the latter.
 

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Constraining lithium-ion cells increases the cyclic lifetime. However, depending on an expected volume expansion during charge and discharge cycling, defining the optimal constraining pressure range is not straightforward. In this study, we investigate a lithium iron phosphate/graphite pouch cell at four initial constraining pressure levels. As a function of C-Rate, the thermodynamic principle of the non-monotonic pressure curve during full charge and discharge cycles is evaluated. Using the rubber balloon model to calculate the chemical potential of lithium iron phosphate and discussing the relationship between the chemical potential and pressure, we illustrate the pressure curve qualitatively. By applying differential pressure analysis, we evaluate the resulting pressure curves of a single graphite stage. Approaching a fundamental understanding of reduced cycling lifetime of full cells with unknown material composition, we allocate the stages and stage transitions of graphite as well as the phase transition of lithium iron phosphate. Local extreme values in the differential pressure analysis indicate phase and stage transitions. These values can identify critical operating conditions that should be considered for defining the optimum initial constraining pressure range.

 
this is for LiPo pouch that tends to "puff" very easily.
i think this is not relevant for a cell in aluminium or plastic case. in that case the pressure valve will activate way before the case will change its shape.
 
common, if you get cell bulging, then you have a serious problem.
squeezing them is silly to think it will help.

Exactly.

Now, the comments about low-rate usage not causing heating... are simply not true. There is heating, and there will be a temp gradient across the pack, especially if you wedge them all together.

Will tapes his cells together, but he is not building a huge pack for mission critical loads that must last a long time in harsh conditions. He is experimenting.

If you want maximum lifetime, and you have the space and wherewithal, maintaining the air gaps will improve cell-to-cell consistency and degradation.
 
to refer to another study about cell temperature, they discovered you could get a lot better thermal dissipation if you use the busbar.
first if you use copper busbar they are very good for conducting heat, and the positive and negative electrode are directly connected
to the core of the cell (where it get hot first) and all these part are usually aluminium, a good thermal conductive material.
This is particularly true for cell with high volume.
so using oversized flat bus bar (with large surface, will greatly help, while allowing also better conduction, you can also mount heatsink
on the bus bar.
 
Now, the comments about low-rate usage not causing heating... are simply not true. There is heating, and there will be a temp gradient across the pack, especially if you wedge them all together.

No one is claiming there is no heating of the cells, that would be ridiculous.

Lets do some numbers:

Assuming a 150Ah cell, 3.2V nominal, ca 480Wh
Further assume a really poor cell with an internal resistance of 0.5mOhm
Discharge the cell completely in one hour at a constant 1C load
P=U*I=R*I^2=0.0005*150^2=11.25W of constant internal heating

11.25W for one hour is 11.25*3600 = 40.5kJ of heat energy

I don't know the specific heat capacity of a LiFePO4 cell. Lets assume 0.5 J/gK, a bit higher than that of copper.
Cell weight 2950g

(40500 / 2950 J / g) / 0.5 (J/gK) = 27.5 K heat increase, given perfect insulation

Given that the cell is hopefully much better than 0.5mOhm and that your battery is not perfectly thermally insulated from the surrounding world, the increase in temperature will be lower. 20K or 36°F seem more probable.

Unless you are constantly cycling between 1C load and 1C charge, the cell would cool down after the discharge.

Conclusion: At <1C loads I would not bother with forced cooling.
 
Lets do some numbers:

I love that you ran the numbers. I think you've been very aggressive; I would expect the battery being discussed (RV energy storage, not a traction pack) to operate at well under 1C normally and have much lower heating than your worst-case scenario.

Here are some counterpoints, to further the debate -- which I think is a great one, btw:

1) Aluminum shell cells need to be insulated from each other for electrical reasons, regardless of the thermal situation. So we are having a somewhat academic debate: especially if the manufacturer provides spacers that allow for an air gap, the air gap is "free" modulo volume concerns in the RV. It would be strange to design a different packaging method that removes that air gap. (Now, I think they design in the gap because many of their packs are used in traction applications, where there will surely be substantially higher heating. But this does not alter the fact that in many cases there will be an established, manufacturer-approved install method that already provides for the gap.)

2) Your calculation finds a worst-case 28degC increase. I would argue that even a 5degC increase distributed unevenly throughout the battery pack is unacceptable. We know that heating is one of the biggest contributors to aging. We know, empirically, that others with LFP packs experience more cell degradation on the interior cells when they are arranged in rows or grids. In an RV, there likely will be times when the enclosure's ambient air temperature reaches or exceeds 40degC. I would not want the middle of my pack to be a concentrator of whatever heat does accumulate in that case, if I could help it, because the degradation scales nonlinearly with temperature. Does a real pack generate even a 5degC delta in the middle under mild loads? I don't know for sure.

3) Your calculation does not account for any ohmic heating at the interconnect. Those can be substantial -- especially once wire, dissimilar metals, mistakes or wear (under-torqued connectors), and especially fuses become involved. All of those potential heating sources can transfer heat right back into the cells if they are in close contact. (My own DC system's total resistance is roughly 25mOhm!)

I have personally measured, with a FLIR camera on a single bare aluminum shell cell in open air at room temperature, at 0.25C for about one hour, a gradient of just under 1degC between the middle of the largest exterior face of a cell and its outer edges. I could easily imagine that becoming five or ten times that when densely packed with little convective opportunity. I haven't done any more analysis, because, well, see #1 above. But I think it is too early in our understanding of how this chemistry behaves in the long tail to simply dismiss outright possible heating issues in a large battery pack operating at lower rates. Yes, the heat here is second-order compared to a traction application... but some of us are trying to baby these cells and stretch well into the many thousands of cycles that it looks like this chemistry can deliver, under ideal conditions. Why risk it by introducing suboptimal conditions?
 
common, if you get cell bulging, then you have a serious problem.
squeezing them is silly to think it will help.

Totally agree .. unless you are running 1C or higher then airflow and circulation is minimal concern .. heck at 2C as long as you have the ability to get heat to escape you are fine .. we don't use fans at all until we are talking LARGE systems and high C ratings .. anyone that has to strap cells together to keep them from bulging is totally screwed anyway ... the cells are still DESTROYED - all you have done is kept them from bulging ...
 
Constraining lithium-ion cells increases the cyclic lifetime. However, depending on an expected volume expansion during charge and discharge cycling, defining the optimal constraining pressure range is not straightforward. In this study, we investigate a lithium iron phosphate/graphite pouch cell at four initial constraining pressure levels. As a function of C-Rate, the thermodynamic principle of the non-monotonic pressure curve during full charge and discharge cycles is evaluated. Using the rubber balloon model to calculate the chemical potential of lithium iron phosphate and discussing the relationship between the chemical potential and pressure, we illustrate the pressure curve qualitatively. By applying differential pressure analysis, we evaluate the resulting pressure curves of a single graphite stage. Approaching a fundamental understanding of reduced cycling lifetime of full cells with unknown material composition, we allocate the stages and stage transitions of graphite as well as the phase transition of lithium iron phosphate. Local extreme values in the differential pressure analysis indicate phase and stage transitions. These values can identify critical operating conditions that should be considered for defining the optimum initial constraining pressure range.


They are talking about LiFePO4 graphite pouch cells - NOT CALB or Aluminum LFP's ... totally different animal ... with pouches (which i hate working with) you MUST compress
 
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