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diy solar

Dongguan Lighting: Purchase 280AH LiFePo4 cells. Purchase & Review

Why don't you try some premium battery from China, pls check my post:


And for datasheet of CATL LFP 280Ah, pls check:

 
I have now 3 cells in parallel.
Even if I do top (or bottom) balancing as parallel set, there still might be a large difference between the 3?
Showing 2.5 volt don't have to be 2.5 volt?
One cell could be at 3volt, the other at 2..
All the cells will have the same voltage, but not the same state of charge because each cell may have a slightly different SOC. If you are talking about the proposal you were going to have with new cells with a different capacity then that enters the equation.
To my understanding, if put in parallel, cells, batteries, no matter the chemistry, (e.g. lead acid or lifepo4 or lithium ion or... , Not mixed)
Parallel will balance the state of charge.
Only if you charge them close to the knee of the curve at 3.65 volts. Since you have been talking about mixing different capacity prismatics I think the only thing you can be sure of is each group of parallel cells will be at the same SOC of other groups if you parallel them and charge them to 3.65 v. Then they will be equal voltage.
Preferably but not necessarily, they are the same size.

It can be a set build up by different AH, like 20, 50, 90, 150 and 280Ah.
This would make one "cell" (set) of 590Ah

Having different SOC will be equalised, like barrels of water, each with different capacity, but connected..........
That analogy works as long has each barrel has verticle sides. If the shape of the barrels are different one might have 25% and the other might be at 27% but the pressure (voltage) will be the same. As they empty water will flow between the barrels like eddy currents between the cells.
 
You can get all three parallel cells at the same state of charge by getting them to 3.6 volt-ish, and let the current go to 0.

Is this really necessary on these? Doesn't your BMS take care of a lot of it? Forgive me if I'm ignorant of this stuff. My batteries came all within .003 volts from the factory. What am I missing here?

You BMS does not take care of a lot of this. Your BMS should be considered as a protection device for when things go very wrong, and it may help keep cells balanced in certain conditions. It does not initially balance the cells for you - that's up to you to do by (easiest way) putting them all in parallel and get them to 3.6V and watch the current go to 0.

Of course, it might be that your cells are already balanced, or that for your application it does not matter. I'm also not telling anyone they should do what I say or their batteries will go bad. I'm just saying that, from experience, you do not trust cells that come from the factory or seller to be balanced but they should be before placed in a pack.

Parallel will balance the state of charge.

If you have a battery that is at 3.35V and another at 3.4V - that's 0.05V difference. This could be 20% or more of your total capacity difference. How many amps are going to flow in this set-up? We're talking milliamps. How long to balance 28Ah (just 10% of a 280Ah battery)? Keep in mind that when they are at 0.025V difference, this current becomes even less but could still be 5% or more of the total capacity off balance. This is like balancing your two water barrels with an eyedropper.

The reason this works with other chemistries like lead acid is because the voltage curve is not flat like on LiFePO4. You need a voltage difference to balance, which is why you do it for LiFePO4 on the top or at the bottom.
 
Getting just 3 parallel cells to 3.6, that will be challenging, without lifepo4 Charger.
All S16 , 3 parallel to 3.6,(or 2.5) might be an option.

During charge, it seems to hang at 3.35v, for long time, the flat curve.

When it pass this point, the rest go relative fast.

As I already fried one cell, I'm little anxious to go over the 3.4v
That's why I set it to 3.4375, or 55v.

When my new 400A smart Daly arrives, I might get more insight and more confident to go higher
 
Getting just 3 parallel cells to 3.6, that will be challenging, without lifepo4 Charger.
All S16 , 3 parallel to 3.6,(or 2.5) might be an option.

During charge, it seems to hang at 3.35v, for long time, the flat curve.

When it pass this point, the rest go relative fast.

As I already fried one cell, I'm little anxious to go over the 3.4v
That's why I set it to 3.4375, or 55v.

This is why you use a constant voltage power supply. You disconnect it, set it to 3.5V (for example, or less to give it a try), then connect it. That way you make sure you never go higher than 3.5V and the current will go to zero near the end of the charging. Do not set the voltage by measuring under load (i.e., when the supply is connected to the cell or when you don't have a true constant voltage supply) - that is the wrong way to do it and will lead to damaged cells.
 
@fhorst ,
You are trying an experiment by mixing cells of different capacity. Earlier we discussed some reasons why this might work but those were only calculated guesses. If you do this, I think it is important to eliminate any variable that might ruin this experiment. That is why I think you should parallel all your cells together and charge them all to 3.6 volts. I realize that will be a lot of work and require you to take youre existing pack apart to do that.
What @upnorthandpersonal said is important because you have to set your voltage source to 3.6 volts before you connect it to the cells because that is the only way you know it is correct.

I would also suggest you start a new thread so this experiment can be easier for others to find with search engines. That way it will help others.
 
Would love to be able to source four of these cells and a BMS from a stateside vendor to put together a battery for a camper I just bought. New to this sandbox, but not electronics. Am I wrong in thinking I can make a safe alternative to a battleborn battery that is nearly three times as capable for less than the cost of one of those batteries?
 
............ Am I wrong in thinking I can make a safe alternative to a battleborn battery that is nearly three times as capable for less than the cost of one of those batteries?
You are correct in thinking that you could do it for $800 to $900 if you were to buy the batteries from China. Approximately $600 for batteries, $120 for BMS and $80 to $180 for other parts and tools. Compared to the 100 Ahr BattleBorn you would have a 280 Ahr DIY 12 volt battery. I do not know the market details of why these cells are so inexpensive. If it were a sustainable or consistent source of supply someone could take a risk and stock up on these and start a small business selling cells or 12 volt drop in replacements.
 
On this thread there is a guy selling 105 Ahr cells. That would be a $500 to $600 BattleBorn subsitute:

 
This is why you use a constant voltage power supply. You disconnect it, set it to 3.5V (for example, or less to give it a try), then connect it. That way you make sure you never go higher than 3.5V and the current will go to zero near the end of the charging. Do not set the voltage by measuring under load (i.e., when the supply is connected to the cell or when you don't have a true constant voltage supply) - that is the wrong way to do it and will lead to damaged cells.
I have 32 of the 280aH cells set to arrive any day now. I will be making x4 24v 280aH batteries with them. I have been planning on parallel balancing them in sets of 8 for as long as it takes, but they sent me a video before shipment showing all the cells reading 3.28/ea. One seemed to bounce between 3.28 and 3.29...but the point is, I've been hoping and expecting them to arrive in close voltages.
I've been hoping that once they were parallel balanced in sets of eight I could series connect them, screw on a fuse block and connect them each to my MPPT All-in-one 80a SCC and my 2.25kwh array and charge them to 28.8v. All that to say this: Are you saying that would be bad, that I can't charge them initially this way?
 
...........
I've been hoping that once they were parallel balanced in sets of eight I could series connect them, screw on a fuse block and connect them each to my MPPT All-in-one 80a SCC and my 2.25kwh array and charge them to 28.8v. All that to say this: Are you saying that would be bad, that I can't charge them initially this way?
I have done it both ways and I would not go so so far as saying that it would be bad. but it would be better to charge them all in parallel to 3.65 volts. @upnorthandpersonal explained it to me with a graph that showed how flat the curve is. Therefore at 3.28 volts those volts are accurate and equal, but the SOC of the cells could be off by a percentage point or more. That may show up as one cell hitting to top sooner than the others. If that is bad for you then you can reach your own conclusion about whether your proposed short cut is worth it. The more time consuming cumbersome method increases the probabilities that the cells will all arrive at the top fairly close together and that should optimize the capacity of the pack.
 
@fhorst ,
You are trying an experiment by mixing cells of different capacity.

---- deleted part ----

I would also suggest you start a new thread so this experiment can be easier for others to find with search engines. That way it will help others.

Yes, that will be a good idea.
I already made a thread discussing the usage of different ah cells, "mix n match" and from it it became clear it is normal practice to do so.

Calling it "experiment" would suggest I'm doing something totally different then standard.

It's not.
Even adding new cells in parallel to old pack to boost the life is common practice!!

As lifepo4 doesn't drain other cells like Lead acid does, you can have "bad cells" mixed up with good ones!!

A "bad" old cell just doesn't have the same capacity, and for longer period of time it can have more difficulties to hold the charge.

Bad lead acid takes twice or more the amount of energy to charge, (normally 75% efficient, bad LA 50% or worse) can do about 20% of original capacity, and loses this fast (can't hold on for a few hours)

This already makes huge difference in usage.
Bad lifepo4 still is +95% efficient, can hold about 75% (or less) of original capacity, and holds it just fine for a couple of days.

In solar, daily charge and discharge, the low efficiency of LA is already bad with good battery, with bad ones...
Sad.
Holding on to this charge for just a few hours (less then 12) is the next problem.
After dawn, there are more hours without sunlight.

The only thing for Lifepo4 in daily charge / discharge is its lower capacity.

Adding new cells to overcome this limitation is used a lot, for many, many years not a problem and not experimental.

Adding lifepo4 to a bad lead acid setup, that would be experimental :)

When my cells arrive ( order will be finished in a few days) I'll make a new thread.

A few % difference in SOC is for me not a problem.
Balancing them by placing in parallel will balance just fine for my solar application.
1 or 2% difference in SOC will happen standard by just using them.
Even after official by the book top or bottom balance, after a few weeks or months.
It's just the nature of lifepo4.
They will go / be out of balance.

This is why @Will Prowse and others suggest to Balance every few months or once a year, depending on your usage.
Higher C rates will give greater imbalance.
(Did) Charging at C0.33 or C0.1 makes huge difference.( For me 230 or 70A)
Normally it will be mostly C.01 for most people, including me.
During rain season, I'm charging fast, as there are just a few hours of open sky/ full sunlight a day.
My solar panels are matched for those days.

Probably I need to balance twice a year, before and after rain season.

Having a few % imbalance in the cells and parallel sets is normal!

Naturally, when my new cells arrive, I will add them at the moment both cells have the same voltage, with the new cells as reference.
(Probably 3.29/3.30v)
After this top charge to 95 - 100%
And this twice a year to Balance the cells.

OT...
I wonder how battleborn does this, as their cells go max to 85%.
Maybe they just accept the imbalance?
 
I already made a thread discussing the usage of different ah cells, "mix n match" .........
Yes, I remember that discussion and since this is about the same subject I will respond in that thread here.

I am not the thread police but I have seen comments that the moderators would prefer long threads not be cluttered up with irrelevant comments. The topic of this thread is Donguan Lighting 280Ahr cells. Since the cells you want to talk about are 120 and 150 Ahr cells I am not going to clutter up this thread.
 
I have done it both ways and I would not go so so far as saying that it would be bad. but it would be better to charge them all in parallel to 3.65 volts. @upnorthandpersonal explained it to me with a graph that showed how flat the curve is. Therefore at 3.28 volts those volts are accurate and equal, but the SOC of the cells could be off by a percentage point or more. That may show up as one cell hitting to top sooner than the others. If that is bad for you then you can reach your own conclusion about whether your proposed short cut is worth it. The more time consuming cumbersome method increases the probabilities that the cells will all arrive at the top fairly close together and that should optimize the capacity of the pack.
Okay. Are you saying I could parallel all 32 and charge them to 3.65 (or 3.6) as one huge cell? Then I'd breakdown and series together my x4, 8 cell batteries.
 
Okay. Are you saying I could parallel all 32 and charge them to 3.65 (or 3.6) as one huge cell? Then I'd breakdown and series together my x4, 8 cell batteries.
That is the recommended procedure to get them to the same SOC. It is a pain in the butt, it can take several days, but it has the highest probability of getting the SOCs balanced at the top. In a stationary storage system. The top is where your pack is going to be closest to most often. If you don't mind seeing cell imbalance do it some other way. I did it the easy way with my Nissan Leaf Frankenpack and I see cell group deltas all over the place and I have 14 cells in parallel in a 14S12P pack.
 
Will a higher amp capacity BMS have a higher balance load capacity for shunting high cells on charge?

Don't think so. The small currents that some BMSes support are passive. Active balancing is something that is, as far as I know, not part of a BMS. See Will's video on active balancing:

The one he mentions is only 1.2A or something, but you can find them larger. That said, it would (for solar applications) still be best to balance them cell per cell before putting together a pack.

Do check out the follow up video as well though, since it's not all that great:

If you want something bigger (10A) that is truly active balancing, something like this (at a price):
https://www.amazon.com/Supercapacitor-Equalizer-Balancer-Bluetooth-Titanate/dp/B082V3YVZF?th=1
 
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