EG4 6000XP Neutral-Ground Bonding

[Scotts954]

I will check and find out. Seems to be possible but I need more people involved on this decision making.

Any update on this?

 

[Woolval]

Let's start with a snip from the EG4 6000XP manual.


What I'm getting at here, is a lot of people, including @Will Prowse in his latest video (8:03) are mistaken on how the 6000XP handles neutral and ground bonds. The inverter does NOT dynamically bond. This means that if you plan to put an cord and plug on the AC-input, then you will have problems (for example, if you plan to use this inverter in an RV). In my opinion, it's really only intended for hardwired applications, similar to the big-brother, the 18k-PV.

Neutral-ground bonds are critical in all modes of operation because it creates a fault current path so that you actually trip a breaker in the event of a ground fault. Without a neutral-ground bond, then all that happens during a ground fault is the cases of everything become live in relation to neutral and the fault is not cleared.

Double bonds are not acceptable by code or safe because it creates a parallel path for neutral currents. The current carried on the grounding conductor is know as objectionable current. NEC specifically addresses objectionable current.

The two options for successful and safe implementation are:

• Bond is either created upstream of the inverter, (in the main panel). Neutral and ground connections remain separate to the inverter (and any parallel connected inverters) and the relay in the inverter is left disabled). No cord-and-plug can be used between the main panel and the inverter. A hardwire connection is required so that the neutral and ground bond is maintained at all times, not just while plugged in.
• Bond is created in only one of the inverters, but there cannot be bonds upstream or downstream. This means if you decide to put a cord-and-plug, for example, an NEMA 14-50P (for an RV) or a 6-30P (for a generator), then you cannot plug the cord into a bonded system (for example, an RV park or generator with a bond). This would create a double-bond which is not permitted by code and cause objectionable current.

I would recommend if you plan to use these inverters in a mobile application, then you enable the bonding relay within the inverter and skip using the built-in charger/transfer switch function. When it comes time to recharge your batteries, just pick up one of the EG4 chargeverters (or 12) and use that as your input power source. Since the chargeverter is completely isolated from the inverter, the chargeverter prevents any chance of double-bonding.

@Markus_EG4 Let me know if I've missed anything here.

You say "No cord-and-plug can be used between the main panel and the inverter. A hardwire connection is required so that the neutral and ground bond is maintained at all times, not just while plugged in.". That is throwing my plans off kilter. I am planning to run my load output to a Reliance transfer switch, connecting with this 4 prong MEMA L14-30P/L L14-30P extension. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0881D4YBZ?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1 . I believe my only bond is in my main panel. I also am thinking this 4-wire extension will connect the ground bond. Am I making a mistake?

 

[ChrisG]

If you are going into an unbounded sub panel which should be 99% of the cases you need to have the AC IN always plugged in or hardwired since the bond is coming from main.

If using a reliance transfer switch, as long as the output is switching items in your main panel where the bond already is, you can disconnect the AC in if needed and the bond won’t be lost.

 

[Woolval]

If you are going into an unbounded sub panel which should be 99% of the cases you need to have the AC IN always plugged in or hardwired since the bond is coming from main.

If using a reliance transfer switch, as long as the output is switching items in your main panel where the bond already is, you can disconnect the AC in if needed and the bond won’t be lost.

I'm connecting my 6000XP now. My electrician did run a 50A circuit to feed the 6000XP. That will connect the ground wire and bond my 6000XP to my main panel ground (if I'm understanding the grounding). Is this a good and safe practice? I'm thinking yes. But my wife tells me I've been wrong before. FYI, I am not grid tied, this is why I'm going thru the Reliance transfer switch. Again, I think I'm thinking correctly! LOL, don't tell my wife.

 

[ChrisG]

I'm connecting my 6000XP now. My electrician did run a 50A circuit to feed the 6000XP. That will connect the ground wire and bond my 6000XP to my main panel ground (if I'm understanding the grounding). Is this a good and safe practice? I'm thinking yes. But my wife tells me I've been wrong before. FYI, I am not grid tied, this is why I'm going thru the Reliance transfer switch. Again, I think I'm thinking correctly! LOL, don't tell my wife.

Search for posts with diagrams from @FilterGuy. There was a line diagram for the 6000xp and a Reliance TS as this is a shared neutral connection. Did your electrician run L1/L2/N/G, all four wires for AC-In?

 

[Woolval]

Search for posts with diagrams from @FilterGuy. There was a line diagram for the 6000xp and a Reliance TS as this is a shared neutral connection. Did your electrician run L1/L2/N/G, all four wires for AC-In?

Sorry Chris, just saw this today (2-6-24 6:36AM) Yes, he did run the 4 wire #6. I have the bare copper wire connected to the 6000XP PE lugs.

 

[mmmmmdonuts]

Can I say this is TRUE:

For all those people that run the 6000xp Off-Grid and use a Chargeverter, disable setting 26 and bond your neutrals and grounds in your (main) AC panel. The End.

Please verify so I can move on.

I saw this was verified as true but I want to verify if charging the batteries with the mppt in the 6000xp this is also true.

 

[Robkh]

The reality is, even systems that do dynamic bonding well has to make assumptions about whether there is a bond on the AC in. I do not know of anything on the market that can handle AC-in without bonding sometimes and AC-in with bonding other times. It could be done with modern electronics that detect if a bond exists or not, but I am not aware of any current inverter product with that capability.

So true!!! The 6000XP has a design center of stationary installs. Trying to apply it to mobile is a little bit of a square peg and round hole situation.

Planning totally off grid EV charging and 240V supply to pool heater.
Two EG4 6000XP in parallel to two EG4 PowerPro batteries for 50A 240V supply to an off-grid service panel - grounded to earth ground via continuous 6g copper wire attached to two 8 ft pounded into dirt earth-ground.
There will be NO charging of this system from my house electrical - will only have solar charging (Phoenix, AZ).
I will go to setting #26 in the 6000XP and enable the ground neutral bond.
If I wire a Tesla charger from the off grid service panel, will the Tesla charger show the infamous blinking red error light?
Any experience with this?

 

[FilterGuy]

Planning totally off grid EV charging and 240V supply to pool heater.
Two EG4 6000XP in parallel to two EG4 PowerPro batteries for 50A 240V supply to an off-grid service panel - grounded to earth ground via continuous 6g copper wire attached to two 8 ft pounded into dirt earth-ground.
There will be NO charging of this system from my house electrical - will only have solar charging (Phoenix, AZ).
I will go to setting #26 in the 6000XP and enable the ground neutral bond.
If I wire a Tesla charger from the off grid service panel, will the Tesla charger show the infamous blinking red error light?
Any experience with this?

I do not have experience with the tesla charger but I do know it has circuitry the checks for the NG bond. As far as I know it should work with your set up.

 

[Zwy]

Imo no bond at all is way worse than double bond. My property had a double bond in place for 20 years and in practice the objectionable current just isn't that big a deal.

Old thread but someone revived it and I saw this post so I'm going to input on the subject.

Double bond in an RV could be deadly as it will lead to hot skin.

I know firsthand with my work trailer 20 some years ago. Stationary application it usually isn't a big deal although in years past someone carrying a metal cased power tool plugged into an extension cord could be found later on the damp ground dead.

My suggestion to anyone using an inverter that does not dynamically bond when under inverter power or does not desire a dynamically bonded inverter is to use a bonding plug that is a receptacle with N-G bonded on the male end of the RV cord. One could even use a dummy receptacle box like this 50A box where it is permanently mounted and the cord plugged into it. Only connection internally would be N to G.


or if the cord is removeable NEMA L5-30R then purchase an end like that one and internally bond N and G.

If done this way, if switching between inverter, shore power or generator, there should not be a problem.

 

[HighTechLab]

Old thread but someone revived it and I saw this post so I'm going to input on the subject.

Double bond in an RV could be deadly as it will lead to hot skin.

I know firsthand with my work trailer 20 some years ago. Stationary application it usually isn't a big deal although in years past someone carrying a metal cased power tool plugged into an extension cord could be found later on the damp ground dead.

My suggestion to anyone using an inverter that does not dynamically bond when under inverter power or does not desire a dynamically bonded inverter is to use a bonding plug that is a receptacle with N-G bonded on the male end of the RV cord. One could even use a dummy receptacle box like this 50A box where it is permanently mounted and the cord plugged into it. Only connection internally would be N to G.


or if the cord is removeable NEMA L5-30R then purchase an end like that one and internally bond N and G.

If done this way, if switching between inverter, shore power or generator, there should not be a problem.

Until you forget to plug it in. Then someone gets hurt or killed.

It blows my mind the extent some will go, to use the wrong equipment for the application.

 

[Zwy]

Until you forget to plug it in. Then someone gets hurt or killed.

It blows my mind the extent some will go, to use the wrong equipment for the application.

Bonding plugs have been used in the RV world with generators for a long time. I see no difference when it comes to inverters, it is a power generating device.

In the RV world, it is expected if one is using a power source other than shore power, the user is expected to know how N-G bonding for the generator is done and take appropriate steps to ensure a bond exists when not on shore power.

The receptacle increases the likelihood of RV users remembering. When disconnecting from shore power, the cord is plugged in so the N-G bond will always exist when the inverter is turned on. The NEMA L5 is the same, when disconnecting the cord from a NEMA L5 receptacle after using shore power, the NEMA L5 female end is installed. The inverter will be bonded when it is turned on.

 

[mmmmmdonuts]

I traditionally use bonding plugs on the generator as well. It would be great if the 6000xp had an option like this: 1) incoming AC power detected removed bonding wire. 2) No AC input bond the neutral and ground.

To me it would be a simple software fix.

 

[ScrotusGobbleBottom]

The two options for successful and safe implementation are:

• Bond is either created upstream of the inverter, (in the main panel). Neutral and ground connections remain separate to the inverter (and any parallel connected inverters) and the relay in the inverter is left disabled). No cord-and-plug can be used between the main panel and the inverter. A hardwire connection is required so that the neutral and ground bond is maintained at all times, not just while plugged in.
• Bond is created in only one of the inverters, but there cannot be bonds upstream or downstream. This means if you decide to put a cord-and-plug, for example, an NEMA 14-50P (for an RV) or a 6-30P (for a generator), then you cannot plug the cord into a bonded system (for example, an RV park or generator with a bond). This would create a double-bond which is not permitted by code and cause objectionable current.

What about a hard wired ground and a 50 amp 3 prong plug? Hard wired ground and 240v 2 hots and a neutral in the plug? Then just leave the bond setting open in the 6000xp.

Seems to be a simple solution to me. Could put the ground on a big clamp.
I think read in the manual, that there is always a pass through neutral.

 

[Quattrohead]

In the RV world, it is expected if one is using a power source other than shore power, the user is expected to know how N-G bonding for the generator is done and take appropriate steps to ensure a bond exists when not on shore power.

You are way over estimating the average humans intelligence in 2024

 

[HighCountry]

Little off subject matter but on topic... Have totally off grid setup - never getting grid power either. Have 1 EG4 6000XP unit that's wired to a main breaker - not bonded. If using the internal bonding setting enabled, do I need earth ground for the inverter? Assume that is the case. Also, have solar panels earth grounded. Can I use the ground from the panels to ground the EG4 6000XP? The more I read about this the more it seems arcane! A little clarification would be super as most information on solar seems to forget about the folks that are completely new to this all.

 

[Zwy]

Little off subject matter but on topic... Have totally off grid setup - never getting grid power either. Have 1 EG4 6000XP unit that's wired to a main breaker - not bonded. If using the internal bonding setting enabled, do I need earth ground for the inverter? Assume that is the case. Also, have solar panels earth grounded. Can I use the ground from the panels to ground the EG4 6000XP? The more I read about this the more it seems arcane! A little clarification would be super as most information on solar seems to forget about the folks that are completely new to this all.

Start with Filter Guy's papers in resources. https://diysolarforum.com/resources/grounding-made-simpler-part-1-ac-houshold-grounding.157/ Hit the download button upper right hand corner.

In your case off grid, I would disable bonding in the inverter, install a grounding electrode at the main breaker panel fed directly by the inverter and bond N-G there. I would remove the ground electrode at the panels and run a EGC from panel frames back to system N-G bond.

The reason for N-G bond at the main panel is if a generator is used that does not bond N-G, you have a bond in place. You could leave the current bond in the inverter in place instead of bonding at the main breaker panel. I would remove the ground electrode at the panels and install one at the inverter/main panel. If you do use a generator that is not bonded, you will have to use a bonding plug or jumper N to G in the panel.

 

[EG4_Jared]

Little off subject matter but on topic... Have totally off grid setup - never getting grid power either. Have 1 EG4 6000XP unit that's wired to a main breaker - not bonded. If using the internal bonding setting enabled, do I need earth ground for the inverter? Assume that is the case. Also, have solar panels earth grounded. Can I use the ground from the panels to ground the EG4 6000XP? The more I read about this the more it seems arcane! A little clarification would be super as most information on solar seems to forget about the folks that are completely new to this all.

An earth ground would be recommended. I would definitely check out the thread that ZWY sent as it has helpful diagrams for this.

 

[HighCountry]

Read through Filter Guy's paper... Still a bit confused here as it relates to the EG4 6000XP.

I contacted EG4 directly and they replied: "the inverter housing itself doesn't need to be grounded, but there is a ground bus bar in the cabinet labeled PE. That's going to be for your A/C inputs/Output like your GEN/GRID/LOAD Input/Output locations. Each one of those connections made will need four wires L1, L2, a Neutral, and a Ground." And that, "if you do not ground the inverter, that the ground should be made at your load panel, and then connected to the ground bus in your inverter."

This being said, let's say that the main breaker panel is earth grounded (then ground to inverter from panel) what should the setting for the EG4 6000XP internal bonding be - Enabled or disabled? My thought - it should be enabled and the panel not bond at N-G.

 

[EG4_Jared]

Read through Filter Guy's paper... Still a bit confused here as it relates to the EG4 6000XP.

I contacted EG4 directly and they replied: "the inverter housing itself doesn't need to be grounded, but there is a ground bus bar in the cabinet labeled PE. That's going to be for your A/C inputs/Output like your GEN/GRID/LOAD Input/Output locations. Each one of those connections made will need four wires L1, L2, a Neutral, and a Ground." And that, "if you do not ground the inverter, that the ground should be made at your load panel, and then connected to the ground bus in your inverter."

This being said, let's say that the main breaker panel is earth grounded (then ground to inverter from panel) what should the setting for the EG4 6000XP internal bonding be - Enabled or disabled?

If you have a neutral-ground bond in the main panel, you would want it disabled. However, if not, you would want it enabled.