EG4 Chargeverter vs AC-In on Inverter?

[Adam De Lay]

Would the chargeverter be more efficient than AC-IN and grid-bypass on inverters?

Let me tell you where I'm going with this and you can crucify me later... ?

Take the EG4 6500 for example. Could you NOT wire AC-In to the inverter, wire up a 240 outlet (grid) and plug the chargeverter into that, then figure out some way to use the Dry contact Relay to turn the chargeverter on/off based on the "to grid" and "to battery" voltages?

Since there's no AC-In power, the inverter should still run off battery and the chargeverter would supply power directly to the battery.

I guess it would depend of efficiency differences between grid-bypass mode and the chargeverter. I know that the 6500 doesn't utilize solar fully for the loads when in grid-bypass mode, so this would correct that because the inverter would always remain in SBU mode.

Just thinking out loud I guess. Don't have a chargeverter to test myself.

 

[Texican]

not sure if you could get it automated so it turns on/off at set SOC
but you could use a wifi switch or similar and turn it on/off manually when needed

I have dual lv6548 setup and 1 thing that bugs me with the ac input in SBU is that it uses 40w each inverter all night from the grid, thats over 1kwh each night
I could flip the breaker off manually but thats a pain for a small savings
wish there was a mode SB that was a selectable option with no utility, just solar or batts even though ac input is hooked up

 

[timselectric]

Would the chargeverter be more efficient than AC-IN and grid-bypass on inverters?

Let me tell you where I'm going with this and you can crucify me later... ?

Take the EG4 6500 for example. Could you NOT wire AC-In to the inverter, wire up a 240 outlet (grid) and plug the chargeverter into that, then figure out some way to use the Dry contact Relay to turn the chargeverter on/off based on the "to grid" and "to battery" voltages?

Since there's no AC-In power, the inverter should still run off battery and the chargeverter would supply power directly to the battery.

I guess it would depend of efficiency differences between grid-bypass mode and the chargeverter. I know that the 6500 doesn't utilize solar fully for the loads when in grid-bypass mode, so this would correct that because the inverter would always remain in SBU mode.

Just thinking out loud I guess. Don't have a chargeverter to test myself.

That's kinda what I am doing.
And yes, you can do what you describe.

 

[Adam De Lay]

not sure if you could get it automated so it turns on/off at set SOC
but you could use a wifi switch or similar and turn it on/off manually when needed

That's why I was looking at the Dry contact relay because it's controlled by the values set on the inverter (12/13).

wish there was a mode SB that was a selectable option with no utility, just solar or batts even though ac input is hooked up

Theoretically, what I'm describing might give you such a mode w/o needing to have AC-In connected at all. Power would just go directly to the batteries when needed. Plus, it seems like a lot of the issues around these style inverters revolve around having AC-In connected. Granted you would have to do some re-wiring, but this is all conceptual right now.

That's kinda what I am doing.
And yes, you can do what you describe.

Thanks. I guess I'm just trying to figure out if it would be potentially more efficient and save some hassle down the road. If it's not automatic, it wouldn't be worth it. Like I mentioned above, it seems like a lot of these inverters issues all revolve around having AC-In tied to the inverter. This would remove those potential issues.

 

[Zapper77]

That's why I was looking at the Dry contact relay because it's controlled by the values set on the inverter (12/13).


it seems like a lot of these inverters issues all revolve around having AC-In tied to the inverter. This would remove those potential issues.

Manual says the dry contact is 240v. You should be able to use a double pole 240v coil contactor like... https://www.amazon.com/CGele-Conditioner-Contactor-Condenser-Compressor/dp/B08H8X41P6/ref=sr_1_4?crid=1SD70Q3MFAB4M&keywords=240v+contactor&qid=1678840095&sprefix=240v+contactor,aps,177&sr=8-4

 

[Adam De Lay]

Manual says the dry contact is 240v. You should be able to use a double pole 240v coil contactor like... https://www.amazon.com/CGele-Conditioner-Contactor-Condenser-Compressor/dp/B08H8X41P6/ref=sr_1_4?crid=1SD70Q3MFAB4M&keywords=240v+contactor&qid=1678840095&sprefix=240v+contactor,aps,177&sr=8-4

Thanks. I know I could figure out how to make it work "functionally", it was more the question of would it be more efficient and work better than the AC-In?

 

[EastTexCowboy]

I'm trying to wrap my head around what you're proposing. So essentially, you would replace the bypass mode of the inverter with the chargeverter? When the batteries reach a designated SOC the chargeverter would kick in and charge the batteries and the inverter would NOT go into bypass mode? Is that all correct?

 

[Zapper77]

Thanks. I know I could figure out how to make it work "functionally", it was more the question of would it be more efficient and work better than the AC-In?

Inverter in By-Pass would be 100% efficient in regard to load (not counting the minor resistance of the transfer switch). If my memory is correct the Inverter's built in charger is near 94% efficent. So having the grid connected to the inverter would technically be better. The other way around the CV would need to cover the loads on the inverter and charge...so the inverted "loads" would see a loss of around 10%'ish. (Just a guess I didn't bother to do napkin math). Edit: replace 10% with 11.58% (Simple math)

 

[robby]

I understand the issues your trying to get around with by doing this, but is it worth the extra Grid usage loss of doing a double conversion and the extra battery strain?

 

[Adam De Lay]

I'm trying to wrap my head around what you're proposing. So essentially, you would replace the bypass mode of the inverter with the chargeverter? When the batteries reach a designated SOC the chargeverter would kick in and charge the batteries and the inverter would NOT go into bypass mode? Is that all correct?

Yeah. No AC-In connected at all. No potential grid problems affecting the inverter, no switching between modes.

Depending on your PV production, the chargeverter may run more during winter time or extended cloudy days, but it would put power directly into the battery as opposed to making the inverter pass power through.

I know in my case, when I go back and look at a lot of the inverter issues I’ve had, many revolve around grid-bypass.

Just kinda spitballing an idea that I was thinking about this morning.

 

[Adam De Lay]

I understand the issues your trying to get around with by doing this but is it worth the extra Grid usage loss of doing a double conversion and the extra battery strain.

That’s kinda what I’m trying to figure out. It’s all conceptual.

 

[BenFromSignatureSolar]

Yeah. No AC-In connected at all. No potential grid problems affecting the inverter, no switching between modes.

Depending on your PV production, the chargeverter may run more during winter time or extended cloudy days, but it would put power directly into the battery as opposed to making the inverter pass power through.

I know in my case, when I go back and look at a lot of the inverter issues I’ve had, many revolve around grid-bypass.

Just kinda spitballing an idea that I was thinking about this morning.

Any chance you could sketch a little diagram of what you are saying? I'm trying to wrap my head around this... So no A/C input at all, how are you powering the chargeverter? And I may have misread, but are you saying you would wire the chargeverter into the A/C input? Surely run it straight to the batteries and I just missed that. Where you are getting the power to run the CV is where I'm confused.

 

[Adam De Lay]

Any chance you could sketch a little diagram of what you are saying? I'm trying to wrap my head around this... So no A/C input at all, how are you powering the chargeverter? And I may have misread, but are you saying you would wire the chargeverter into the A/C input? Surely run it straight to the batteries and I just missed that. Where you are getting the power to run the CV is where I'm confused.

Here's a very rough drawing of what I'm thinking.

No AC-In, no SUB/USB modes to deal with that don't work properly. No having to switch between source modes. No continual battery draws when you're in grid-bypass.

The chargeverter would be powered by the grid off a 120/240v outlet, but it would be acting as a dynamic charger based on the inverter settings (via the dry contact relay and an inline contactor on the grid outlet) as opposed to utilizing the AC-In and dealing with the issues that come with that connection.

Conceptually, I know I could make it work, it's just do the benefits outweigh the cost.

 

[cs1234]

Why even bother with trying to turn the chargeverter on/off, unless you are concerned with idle losses on the chargeverter?

Could you just set the charging voltage on the chargeverter to something you are comfortable with for a low float? When your batteries dip to that point or lower, the chargeverter will take over supplying up to whatever amps you configure it for.

 

[timselectric]

Why even bother with trying to turn the chargeverter on/off, unless you are concerned with idle losses? Could you just set the charging voltage on the chargeverter to something you are comfortable with for a low float? When your batteries dip to that point or lower, the chargeverter will take over supplying up to whatever amps you configure it for.

That's the easiest option.
I tested it this way. Idle consumption is minimal. But fans run constantly, at a low speed.

 

[cs1234]

That's the easiest option.
I tested it this way. Idle consumption is minimal. But fans run constantly, at a low speed.

How much was the idle consumption? Does it vary by set voltage/amperage at all? Vary by 120/240? The fans running all the time when they don't need to is unfortunate. You might be able to alter that if it's really a concern where you have it located and you don't mind voiding the warranty.

 

[timselectric]

How much was the idle consumption?

I think that we settled on 16w. After several of us testing.

 

[cs1234]

I think that we settled on 16w. After several of us testing.

So the question would be, is it worth 16w plus whatever efficiency losses it has when actually charging / supplying the circuit to make a double conversion ups out of whatever inverter you are using? Kind of hard to decide.

 

[Adam De Lay]

Why even bother with trying to turn the chargeverter on/off, unless you are concerned with idle losses on the chargeverter?

Could you just set the charging voltage on the chargeverter to something you are comfortable with for a low float? When your batteries dip to that point or lower, the chargeverter will take over supplying up to whatever amps you configure it for.

That's definitely a possibility. A whole lot less configuration. If I had the relay kill power to the chargeverter, I would be saving that idle consumption though.

I have EG4 6500s.

 

[timselectric]

So the question would be, is it worth 16w plus whatever efficiency losses it has when actually charging / supplying the circuit to make a double conversion ups out of whatever inverter you are using? Kind of hard to decide.

Isolation from the grid. And fuel efficient charging from a small portable generator. Are the two main benefits.