EG4 new AIO rated 12K output and 18kPV aka "EG4-18Kpv-12LV"

[cs1234]

What is the purpose of seperate battery banks? I don't understand why someone would need that?

Wiring amperage related? Wire, busbars, fuses, etc.. not really sure.

If it weren't for the comms thing, I could see maybe having different battery brands or chemistries on different inverters for giggles.

Doesn't really seem like a worthwhile feature if it comes at the expense of requiring comms or it blows up.

 

[koppted]

The multiple banks feature excludes lead acid for now

Ok, but doesn't answer my question. I might not have been clear with my question.
Forget lead acid:
Say I have a EG4-LL 48v set of battery banks and I have another separate Lifepo4 Car battery module, Lets say its 17s with 54volt nominal max voltage at 60v . Can I charge these two different banks with different absorb/float voltages or not?

 

[SignatureSolarJames]

So to ask my question again, is the warranty void if ANY battery without Comms is connected? For say a Daly BMS with no communications? Or is it only void if the damage is confirmed caused by the BMS with no Comms? Because if the screen burns out, and I send the unit back, but i never had a BMS with communication hooked up to it. I'd be pretty upset if it wasn't covered.

No, the statement is there and specifically for BMS damage caused, you won’t damage the inverter. You also may experience firmware regression as tuning for open loop is not a priority. I can’t foresee an inverter breakage we could scientifically trace to open loop.

Frankly open loop with a cheap BMS is a potential fire hazard and we have to come out against it in our docs.
We also can’t assure that the service guarantees will make The same 3/5day window if we are dealing with open loop.

We have a dozen working batteries and will support more if they are missing. If you have a brand we don’t show support for then let us know and we’ll connect with the mfr.

 

[SignatureSolarJames]

Ok, but doesn't answer my question. I might not have been clear with my question.
Forget lead acid:
Say I have a EG4-LL 48v set of battery banks and I have another separate Lifepo4 Car battery module, Lets say its 17s with 54volt nominal max voltage at 60v . Can I charge these two different banks with different absorb/float voltages or not?

Yes you can as long are they are closed loop

 

[rhino]

If I can read between the lines then it sounds like if you don't want to have any potential issues with a warranty, firmware not working correctly, or getting timely support you have to use a closed loop battery communication system.

 

[timselectric]

Deleted post

 

[cs1234]

If I can read between the lines then it sounds like if you don't want to have any potential issues with a warranty, firmware not working correctly, or getting timely support you have to use a closed loop battery communication system.

Sure does seem that way. Hopefully it has a huge banner on their sales page and in the product literature that indicates such.

 

[rhino]

Sure does seem that way. Hopefully it has a huge banner on their sales page and in the product literature that indicates such.

And people would be perfectly happy with that. It is the lack of transparency that causes people to be miffed when they find out the "details" after the fact.

 

[koppted]

Yes you can as long are they are closed loop

That is great news!

 

[cs1234]

I can’t foresee an inverter breakage we could scientifically trace to open loop.

You would be able to see in the internal logs that it wasn't using a closed loop battery, then we would be at your mercy. Signature Solar has had drama in the past regarding warranty claims on these very forums, haven't they?

Frankly open loop with a cheap BMS is a potential fire hazard and we have to come out against it in our docs.
We also can’t assure that the service guarantees will make The same 3/5day window if we are dealing with open loop.

So just have reduced charging amperages that you feel are safe on voltage only battery setups if you are so concerned about safety. Or get rid of the feature entirely. Voiding warranties while still having the feature supported is of questionable integrity, if not illegal. I would be surprised if the warranty stands up in court being as it's a supported feature that shouldn't even be there if not covered by warranty.

As to safety, I suppose a closed loop battery could be safer if you trust what it is reporting to you vs your own internal soc indicator.

What are you talking about with the service guarantees? Why would it alter a service window, because you are going to spend more time looking at logs trying to void a warranty?

 

[timselectric]

Gosh
I would love to see a new inverter that didn't have a misleading name, strange usage stipulations, and just does what we need. Straight out of the box.

 

[Henderson]

Gosh
I would love to see a new inverter that didn't have a misleading name, strange usage stipulations, and just does what we need. Straight out of the box.

couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[SignatureSolarJames]

You would be able to see in the internal logs that it wasn't using a closed loop battery, then we would be at your mercy. Signature Solar has had drama in the past regarding warranty claims on these very forums, haven't they?



So just have reduced charging amperages that you feel are safe on voltage only battery setups if you are so concerned about safety. Or get rid of the feature entirely. Voiding warranties while still having the feature supported is of questionable integrity, if not illegal. I would be surprised if the warranty stands up in court being as it's a supported feature that shouldn't even be there if not covered by warranty.

As to safety, I suppose a closed loop battery could be safer if you trust what it is reporting to you vs your own internal soc indicator.

What are you talking about with the service guarantees? Why would it alter a service window, because you are going to spend more time looking at logs trying to void a warranty?

If we “support” open loop insanity then we get liability related to every open loop fire hazard out of shenzhen
Also we cant get all data wrapped around a situation to provide on our 5 day replacement guarantee with open loop, the warranty on the unit will remain valid but the liability will be clearly disclaimed and the timeframe as we troubleshoot firmware quirks caused by back amperage from open loop on fill-in-the-blank bms co that doesn’t bother with standard comms of which they can copy 12.
Not looking for a cop out, looking for an ethernet cable in each job and a self respecting bms co with comms.

 

[42OhmsPA]

No, the statement is there and specifically for BMS damage caused, you won’t damage the inverter. You also may experience firmware regression as tuning for open loop is not a priority. I can’t foresee an inverter breakage we could scientifically trace to open loop.

Frankly open loop with a cheap BMS is a potential fire hazard and we have to come out against it in our docs.
We also can’t assure that the service guarantees will make The same 3/5day window if we are dealing with open loop.

What about those that use lead acid banks, service "could" be delayed as well?

We have a dozen working batteries and will support more if they are missing. If you have a brand we don’t show support for then let us know and we’ll connect with the mfr.

So what BMS's are supported for those that prefer to DIY packs?

 

[42OhmsPA]

If we “support” open loop insanity then we get liability related to every open loop fire hazard out of shenzhen

Open loop insanity... Wow
I've read countless posts from users of your other products that solved issues by going open loop. What's the bulk charging voltage of other EG4s in closed loop again?

Also we cant get all data wrapped around a situation to provide on our 5 day replacement guarantee with open loop, the warranty on the unit will remain valid but the liability will be clearly disclaimed and the timeframe as we troubleshoot firmware quirks caused by back amperage from open loop on fill-in-the-blank bms co that doesn’t bother with standard comms of which they can copy 12.

Not looking for a cop out, looking for an ethernet cable in each job and a self respecting bms co with comms.

So the logs will be stored on the inverter itself or you'll require an internet connection for quicker support as well?

 

[SignatureSolarJames]

What about those that use lead acid banks, service "could" be delayed as well?

So what BMS's are supported for those that prefer to DIY packs?

No, lead does not have the back current issue and is not specifically mentioned

 

[SignatureSolarJames]

Open loop insanity... Wow
I've read countless posts from users of your other products that solved issues by going open loop. What's the bulk charging voltage of other EG4s in closed loop again?



So the logs will be stored on the inverter itself or you'll require an internet connection for quicker support as well?

Closed loop had bms driven variable voltage, your question is off the mark of how closed loop works.
Internet connection needed to meet deadline for rapid support.
Datalogs may delay another day or so as the efficiency of live troubleshooting isnt there
We are releasing cell modems this week as well to ensure that not having internet is a choice as much as possible.

We can provide apple class speed if we are enabled by the end user

 

[robby]

Do I have to worry about his with my Sol-Ark 15K?

No Sol-Ark Inverters can work without closed loop.
I ran my system that way for about 10 months and it worked (Mostly) fine.
The one problem with open loop is when Winter comes around and your not getting enough charge to get the batteries up to 100%.
If I have three consecutive days of bad weather the Inverters SOC reading tends to drift off because it cannot get that full 100% charge to re-calibrate itself.

 

[cs1234]

If we “support” open loop insanity then we get liability related to every open loop fire hazard out of shenzhen
Also we cant get all data wrapped around a situation to provide on our 5 day replacement guarantee with open loop, the warranty on the unit will remain valid but the liability will be clearly disclaimed and the timeframe as we troubleshoot firmware quirks caused by back amperage from open loop on fill-in-the-blank bms co that doesn’t bother with standard comms of which they can copy 12.
Not looking for a cop out, looking for an ethernet cable in each job and a self respecting bms co with comms.

You mean an open loop battery like one of these junkers? I don't know why they didn't put comms on it, not like it would have been impossible.

 

[cs1234]

If we “support” open loop insanity then we get liability related to every open loop fire hazard out of shenzhen

I gave you a solution, don't support open loop, disable it in firmware and market appropriately. Don't hide it sneakily in the warranty contract.

I also suggested reducing charging amperage to something you feel is safe.

Even @Will Prowse only recently started accepting "comms". Up until recently many of his videos said he doesn't bother with it and just sets the voltage parameters and goes.. on your past inverters I believe. Now they are open loop insanity fire hazards.

 

[cs1234]

No Sol-Ark Inverters can work without closed loop.
I ran my system that way for about 10 months and it worked (Mostly) fine.
The one problem with open loop is when Winter comes around and your not getting enough charge to get the batteries up to 100%.
If I have three consecutive days of bad weather the Inverters SOC reading tends to drift off because it cannot get that full 100% charge to re-calibrate itself.

Did it burn your house down because the Sol-Ark wasn't sure what the battery SOC was?

 

[robby]

Did it burn your house down because the Sol-Ark wasn't sure what the battery SOC was?

LOL no. Once it drifts it always reads higher than what the batteries are actually at.

Also the Inverter is not using that for it's own charging states, it is using the voltages that you set for Absorption and float. The SOC displayed when in voltage mode is just to make it easier for the user to get a reference. It's accurate if you get a full charge once every 72 hours if not it drifts.

For example I would see 80% but the real SOC on the batteries was 60%.
It is not even an issue if your willing to use the Voltage readings under load and convert it with a "V-SOC table" like people use to do.

A batteries internal BMS also drifts if it does not get a full charge but it takes many more days of partial charging to notice this happening. I am told it is the nature of the beast. It may be caused by ESR and the power the BMS is consuming.

 

[cs1234]

@SignatureSolarJames

Can you provide us with more details about these back current issues that are causing fires and trashing all these inverters? I'm not up to speed on this issue. If it's been discussed here on the forums, I somehow missed it. Aside from lifepo4 batteries destroying inverters when not precharged first because of massive current inrush into empty capacitors, I'm not aware of anything remotely close to what you're describing.

Maybe it's something @Will Prowse can do a video on, so we can protect ourselves from open loop insanity fire hazards.

 

[Will Prowse]

If we “support” open loop insanity then we get liability related to every open loop fire hazard out of shenzhen
Also we cant get all data wrapped around a situation to provide on our 5 day replacement guarantee with open loop, the warranty on the unit will remain valid but the liability will be clearly disclaimed and the timeframe as we troubleshoot firmware quirks caused by back amperage from open loop on fill-in-the-blank bms co that doesn’t bother with standard comms of which they can copy 12.
Not looking for a cop out, looking for an ethernet cable in each job and a self respecting bms co with comms.

What fire hazard? How many non communication LiFePO4 batteries caught on fire?

 

[Will Prowse]

@SignatureSolarJames

Can you provide us with more details about these back current issues that are causing fires and trashing all these inverters? I'm not up to speed on this issue. If it's been discussed here on the forums, I somehow missed it. Aside from lifepo4 batteries destroying inverters when not precharged first because of massive current inrush into empty capacitors, I'm not aware of anything remotely close to what you're describing.

Maybe it's something @Will Prowse can do a video on, so we can protect ourselves from open loop insanity fire hazards.

Destroying inverters? Usually it's the BMS fets that get toasted first. The inverter boards can handle a lot more abuse than a little BMS fet bank.

What inverters are getting trashed? What model are you referring to here?