got fined 1k for an off-grid, 500 dollar, 9 panel system i lay on the roof

[zanydroid]

Probably a little too much snark, but I stand by my thinking that

In PG&E territory, the minimum up-front cost is something like $250-500 permit for all AHJ & POCO layers. Monthly is $10-15/month, or about 1 kWh per day of offset to break even.

You can buy some cheap UL1741 grid tie microinverters off eBay to get a compliant installation, this will also satisfy RSD. I think there's also a $700-1000 gridtie Growatt you can pick up locally from Renvu, if you're into strings. They may have SunSpec RSD transmitter built in, so then you only need to add the $20 / panel RSD

The other cost delta from the installation shared in OP would be racking, which IMO is table stakes because you don't want things falling off...

 

[Johno1066]

What kind of strength training does an 79 year old have to have to build and fit 5S5P arrays together dig the trenches and fit in the conduit and with the help of a 76 year old wife pull all the cables into the conduit. So 25 panels each weighing about 40lbs a piece over a couple of days is no major sweat.

 

[Hedges]

Anyway if you have an suburban lot, you probably don't have many viable ground mount options wrt the area you are allowed to build on. Or if you do... you probably have so much net worth that it's weird that you're participating on this forum.

I'm just here "slumming"

Let’s see them – Google or Bing Maps your system.

Grab a screen capture unless you really want to advertise your address. Townhouse is temporary so have not installed solar on the roof. Plus the roof faces southeast so is not positioned optimal. However the golf cart is easily positionable into the sun.

diysolarforum.com

 

[Craig]

Hi everyone, I recently got dinged a 1000usd fine for what I believe to be a no-mount, off-grid system I put up a few weeks ago.

I bought 10x used 250 watt trina panels off facebook marketplace for 50 dollars each, and got a 5k growatt off-grid inverter and hooked it up to exclusively power my outdoor AC unit. I decided to be ambitious and throw them up on the roof, and planned to remove them before the rainy/windy season when it cools down. (I also added some spacers so theres a 1-inch gap above the roof, this is not in the photo attached)

maybe I was incredibly unlucky, but within 2 weeks the neighbor on my back side that is in view on the roof happened to have solar installers over on their roof, and I saw one of the guys take a picture. a few weeks later a "code enforcer" showed up and they fined me 1000 usd for an unpermitted solar install.

I happily removed the panels from the roof, restored everything and paid the fine, but I can now confirm the "no-mount, off-grid = no permit" is totally up to the inspector here in san jose, california. I dont plan to try and fight it, but the violation states that it was an "unpermitted solar install, installed on the roof, and hooked up to house electrical system".

I definitely dont want to fight the inspectors, since they are the ones that have the final say, but I do wonder if it was a correct interpretation of the code.

I would fight this to the bitter end. For starters your system was not hooked to the house electrical system. Secondly who is to say that your panels were not just being stored on the roof. Did the inspector provide evidence that the system was connected to the house. From my experience most f these guys are more than a little dense and hardly understand the codes they are enforcing. All that being said I do believe it is important to have those panels securely mounted to something and to make sure your system would be up to code even if it is not connected to a house. I have had many a run in with inspectors and code officers. I have also battled them many times with outcomes that did and did not go my way. If you respectfully question them and their reasoning you can often get them to see the light.

 

[Craig]

FWIW $1K is well above how much PG&E interconnect application and permits would cost. I believe my current permit + interconnect cost <$500 (and I have two AHJ layer + PG&E to pay)

I would count yourself lucky that the solar panels stayed in place. I don't even like leaving my building materials staged temporarily on the roof for more than 12 hours without bolting it down.

As for ground mount permitting, in my town on the peninsula there are setback rules. I can't remember if they are state or local building code. Anyway if you have an suburban lot, you probably don't have many viable ground mount options wrt the area you are allowed to build on. Or if you do... you probably have so much net worth that it's weird that you're participating on this forum.

Why are you spending the time/effort to install/uninstall temporary solar panels? Isn't it more efficient to one and done the solar? Unless you are optimizing for strength training.

Seems to me like he was just experimenting and learning how things work. He was not connected to the house or the grid at all. Sorry excuse my anger but moronic code enforcement officers and crybaby rip off solar installers really piss me off.

 

[zanydroid]

This is not how I would have structured the educational POC (Proof of Concept)... but I guess everyone has their own engineering / construction workflow and risk tolerance.

I think once you go above a certain threshold, especially with regular DC strings and full-sized solar modules, it gets pretty hard to argue that it's a temporary install not subject to NEC or other building code enforcement.

 

[Craig]

This is not how I would have structured the educational POC (Proof of Concept)... but I guess everyone has their own engineering / construction workflow and risk tolerance.

I think once you go above a certain threshold, especially with regular DC strings and full-sized solar modules, it gets pretty hard to argue that it's a temporary install not subject to NEC or other building code enforcement.

That's funny because I did exactly what he did. As a POC for my off grid system. But again lets deal with the facts they gave him a fine for un permitted solar system connected to his house which it was not!

 

[Zwy]

Or if you do... you probably have so much net worth that it's weird that you're participating on this forum.

Because I like to associate with the little people.

Why are you spending the time/effort to install/uninstall temporary solar panels? Isn't it more efficient to one and done the solar? Unless you are optimizing for strength training.

I need the exercise and experience. I once removed a pair of AIO's, installed new ones that day, the next day pulled the new ones back off the wall and installed the first pair back on the wall.

It took way less time the second time around.

 

[zanydroid]

That's funny because I did exactly what he did. As a POC for my off grid system. But again lets deal with the facts they gave him a fine for un permitted solar system connected to his house which it was not!

If the fine is just for being connected to the house, then that is an angle to try to get out of it (bc that isn’t exactly the config).

However from a photo someone can with high confidence figure out whether it is a DC or AC system, and that it exceeds voltage restrictions/deviates from required wiring methods.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

You can buy some cheap UL1741 grid tie microinverters off eBay to get a compliant installation, this will also satisfy RSD. I think there's also a $700-1000 gridtie Growatt you can pick up locally from Renvu, if you're into strings. They may have SunSpec RSD transmitter built in, so then you only need to add the $20 / panel RSD

Is that actually the case? I was under the impression that all solar equipment had to have a separate CA approval.

 

[zanydroid]

Is that actually the case? I was under the impression that all solar equipment had to have a separate CA approval.

Good point, I was over simplifying. California has a CEC equipment list (and if it’s not on the list the grid tie application will bog down because the online form only lets you pick equipment on this list). And it is one of the jurisdictions that was pushing for 1741SA/SB.

Older equipment may or may not be exempt from needing updated certification (IE if approved by CEC under older version of 1741). I know there is a manufacturer attestation exemption stating that the gear conforms with SA functionality california cares about, the reason for this was that California wanted inverters with the capability before SA was ratified. I was sort of thinking about equipment in this specific category. There’s a generation of microinverters that falls into it.

Also the grid tie Growatt string inverter I believe is CEC approved, and sometimes I assume Renvu only locally stocks stuff that can actually be installed legally… could be overly optimistic though as they do have a few pallets of non CEC solar panels in their catalog. Which tend to come with helpful warning disclaimers.

I think Hedges has some experience on trying to use older gear for new install.

 

[Hedges]

I use old stuff to replace old stuff from a 20 year old permitted install.

PG&E rejected my TriPower 30,000TL-US because although UL-1741-SA, it doesn't have newer grid support requirements required as of 2020.
The newer TriPower Core series does.
Sunny Boy series -41 also meets the new requirements (and has RSD keep-alive transmitter). Sunny Boy series -40 does not, so don't think it could be installed for backfeed.
All those compliant inverters seem to be UL-1741-SA with certain features (not shown in table on CEC web page, but seen in spreadsheet you can download from CEC web page.) The non-compliant inverters are also on CEC web page and spreadsheet, but have "no" in some columns.
None of these are UL-1741-SB, but I think any -SB listed inverters are compliant.

You can build a zero or limited export system. The NEM application asked about such features. I would think that a zero backfeed system could be built without grid-support features.

My thinking is that UL Listed equipment should be allowed for install in California, but CEC listing is required for backfeed approval. Possibly permit office would look for CEC listing. But it's not like they would know which net metering (if any) you were operating under.

 

[MisterSandals]

What kind of strength training does an 79 year old have to have to build and fit 5S5P arrays together dig the trenches and fit in the conduit and with the help of a 76 year old wife pull all the cables into the conduit.

You were smart to marry a younger woman!

 

[zanydroid]

I was allowed by PG&E et al to use 1741SA microinverters for a 2023 gridtie install, but that equipment got on the list years back, before SB existed.

I guess another point I'm trying to emphasize is that grid tie equipment is not terribly more expensive. For instance, this hybrid string inverter is 6kW AC for $1250. And four 4-port 1500W Hoymiles microinverters costs about the same.

Growatt MIN 6.0kW Single Phase Storage Hybrid Inverter

DetailsGrowatt MIN 6000TL-XH-US is one of the most up-to-date smart inverter solutions with battery-ready rooftop solar systems. It's of compact design and outstanding efficiency of 98.4%. • WiFi + LAN Integrated Communication Module + Tigo Transmitter Integrated • Battery Ready for DC Coupled...

www.renvu.com

I think you can find the non-hybrid Growatts on CEC list too, those would be cheaper still.

 

[Craig]

I was allowed by PG&E et al to use 1741SA microinverters for a 2023 gridtie install, but that equipment got on the list years back, before SB existed.

I guess another point I'm trying to emphasize is that grid tie equipment is not terribly more expensive. For instance, this hybrid string inverter is 6kW AC for $1250. And four 4-port 1500W Hoymiles microinverters costs about the same.

Growatt MIN 6.0kW Single Phase Storage Hybrid Inverter

DetailsGrowatt MIN 6000TL-XH-US is one of the most up-to-date smart inverter solutions with battery-ready rooftop solar systems. It's of compact design and outstanding efficiency of 98.4%. • WiFi + LAN Integrated Communication Module + Tigo Transmitter Integrated • Battery Ready for DC Coupled...

www.renvu.com

I think you can find the non-hybrid Growatts on CEC list too, those would be cheaper still.

Grid tie is great if you want to continue to bow down to your overlords. Solar for me is about being independent. And this guys system was not grid tied so why do we keep arguing its merits. if ya want to be grid tied then be if you don't then don't but be safe obviously

 

[zanydroid]

Grid tie is great if you want to continue to bow down to your overlords. Solar for me is about being independent. And this guys system was not grid tied so why do we keep arguing its merits. if ya want to be grid tied then be if you don't then don't but be safe obviously

1) California does not penalize grid tie much, so you can leverage the lower cost of UL listed GTI compared to UL-listed off-grid inverter
2) Not everyone does the research on what the permitting costs / grid tie penalty are in various jurisdictions
3) It seemed that OP did this to offset AC costs, which are extremely painful with California summer peak rates

It is not economically rational (if the goal is energy cost offset) to go off-grid in California once you exceed the monthly minimum grid charge by enough of a threshold (see above for math).

Now if someone has a goal other than energy cost offset, like philosophical or political reasons, then things are different.

 

[Wattsinwattsout]

Hi everyone, I recently got dinged a 1000usd fine for what I believe to be a no-mount, off-grid system I put up a few weeks ago.

I bought 10x used 250 watt trina panels off facebook marketplace for 50 dollars each, and got a 5k growatt off-grid inverter and hooked it up to exclusively power my outdoor AC unit. I decided to be ambitious and throw them up on the roof, and planned to remove them before the rainy/windy season when it cools down. (I also added some spacers so theres a 1-inch gap above the roof, this is not in the photo attached)

maybe I was incredibly unlucky, but within 2 weeks the neighbor on my back side that is in view on the roof happened to have solar installers over on their roof, and I saw one of the guys take a picture. a few weeks later a "code enforcer" showed up and they fined me 1000 usd for an unpermitted solar install.

I happily removed the panels from the roof, restored everything and paid the fine, but I can now confirm the "no-mount, off-grid = no permit" is totally up to the inspector here in san jose, california. I dont plan to try and fight it, but the violation states that it was an "unpermitted solar install, installed on the roof, and hooked up to house electrical system".

I definitely dont want to fight the inspectors, since they are the ones that have the final say, but I do wonder if it was a correct interpretation of the code.

Maybe try going to the city building dept and request that instead of the fine you pay for the permits for a ground mount solar system. Or at least, refund you the fine after completion of an inspected system.

Firefighters prefer those over rooftop systems. Firefighters need to cut large holes in roofs to put out fires quickly. Solar panels get in the way of your job and can electrocute them. It’s about living structures and life safety for them. A ground mount system is easier for them to deal with, they can usually isolate it and watch it burn with risk to lives.


Ground mounted solar doesn’t mean laying on the ground. You can be creative and build a pergola, carport, or just a simple post and beam patio cover type of design. They are generally preferred by the building dept in my area.

 

[wildbillpdx]

Ever since I saw this post I've been researching Oregon building codes. For the moment, I'm going with this quote from the Oregon Solar Code. I'm legitimately testing a new system to see if it is feasible to actually provide power to certain circuits in my home. One can argue what constitutes temporary.

Oregon Solar Code

104.2 Work exempt from permit. Exemptions from
permit requirements of this code do not grant
authorization for any work to be done in any manner
that violates the provisions of this code or any other
laws or ordinances of the jurisdiction. Permits shall
not be required for the following:
104.2.1 Temporary testing systems. A permit shall
not be required for the installation of any temporary
testing system.

 

[zanydroid]

I think that still means you have to do the work up to code.

 

[wildbillpdx]

I think that still means you have to do the work up to code.

Wasn't implying you don't or that you wouldn't want to. Just pointing out that a permit may not be needed, at least immediately.