Half price electric cars

[ksmithaz1]

charge $0.50/kW for charging.

Way too much. If you are paying over $0.25 for your electricity, save money & buy an ICE hybrid. For "everyday" non-demand charging the costs must be below this threshold (in today's dollars).

I can go 250mi on 60KWH, call it 4.1m/kwh. Problem is it can be closer to 80KWH to put 60 in the car, depending, so lets start with 3.2 to be generous. My much larger hybrid sonata got around 42MPG,

250/42 ~= 6 gallons of fuel * 4.00 = $24 with an ICE
250/$24 = 10.4 miles / dollar

$1/3.2(KW) = $0.31/KWH to equal a gas powered vehicle, with $4/gal gas.

So If you are paying $0.50 .50/.31 * 4 = $6.45/gal equivilent. Ouch. If gas drops to $3: 3/4*..31 = $0.23/KWH.

Numbers and maths, bottom line: roughly $3.25/gal fuel is $0.25/KWH electric. Which means you need to be drastically lower to get a savings benefit from an EV. Power here is 0.08 off peak so about 1/3 the cost of gas. Amortizing this cost against the solar spend who knows.

 

[Danke]

In CA vehicles are disposable since the state has chosen to regulate what years are allowed on the road, this includes all off highway equipment ….that is unless you fall under AG or some other subsidized industry .

What are the restrictions on older cars in California?

 

[ksmithaz1]

EV makes a great dump load. With the costs of some (< 50KW) DCFC's falling under the $10K mark youbat could really make some of your idea a reality. If my batteries are flush at noon, sell off the excess at 25KW. I expect to see 50KW DCFC's under $2000 at which point this could be viable, though the ROI is still dubious at a mythical daily $25 or $30 for for 4-6 hours of power at 25KW.

 

[Hedges]

Numbers and maths, bottom line: roughly $3.25/gal fuel is $0.25/KWH electric. Which means you need to be drastically lower to get a savings benefit from an EV. Power here is 0.08 off peak so about 1/3 the cost of gas. Amortizing this cost against the solar spend who knows.

Exactly.
(here gas is more like $4 to $5/gallon).

If you pay for turnkey GT PV, you make power for $0.10/kWh.
Hardware only for DIY, $0.025/kWh.

The problem is if we can't charge with the power we make, because we have to sell for wholesale, buy back at retail.

Battery for ESS can add $0.05 to $0.10/kWh.

Electric rates are about $0.45 off-peak, $0.65 on-peak.
Think those are supposed to drop about a nickel when monthly base rate increases from $10 to $24.

 

[Hedges]

What are the restrictions on older cars in California?

Cars, nothing except smog check every 2 years. Has to run reasonably well. Occasionally needs tune-up, new O2 sensors, new catalytic converter. Overhaul if in bad shape.

Can replace engine with same year or newer, like class for class (car for car, light truck for light truck, heavy truck for heavy truck but can't cross those lines.) Needs all emission related parts transplanted, including pipes with O2 sensors in same place, back until after CAT.

Some modifications OK using parts having CARB sticker, e.g. changed air intake, maybe turbo. But many are non-authorized.

1975 and earlier are exempt, and diesel prior to OBD-II (e.g. ~1996 or earlier) are exempt.

But commercial size diesel vehicles are banned prior to some year.
Either need CARB smog/particulate improvements, or new engines.
So in practice, older vehicles are retired and replaced. People nearing retirement retire early.

 

[Haze]

What are the restrictions on older cars in California?

Go to the ARB website they list them all. We have been replacing perfectly good vehicles for over a decade thanks to CA. The funny thing is 90% of everything we have sold just goes right across the border to continue running in NV or Mexico.

Whats crazy about CA and the Air resources board is their complete lack of common sense. They will force me to replace a vehicle that gets 6 mpg and buy one that gets 4mpg and is constantly broke down.

All this while idiots like Elon are subsidized to shoot rockets into the air that pollute t100000000% more.

 

[Danke]

Go to the ARB website they list them all. We have been replacing perfectly good vehicles for over a decade thanks to CA. The funny thing is 90% of everything we have sold just goes right across the border to continue running in NV or Mexico.

Whats crazy about CA and the Air resources board is their complete lack of common sense. They will force me to replace a vehicle that gets 6 mpg and buy one that gets 4mpg and is constantly broke down.

All this while idiots like Elon are subsidized to shoot rockets into the air that pollute t100000000% more.

The son of a friend of mine bought a used semi-truck from California. Relatively cheap because older ones were being outlawed on California roads.

 

[Haze]

The son of a friend of mine bought a used semi-truck from California. Relatively cheap because older ones were being outlawed on California roads.

I think the oldest we can legally own now is a 2016. The oldest we have on the trucking side is a 2021 and for costing over 200k it’s a complete pile of sh.t. I’d rather have a fleet of 1990 379’s than any of these new trucks that break down constantly and get horrible fuel mileage.

We started replacing our heavy equipment side due to the regulations in the early 2000’s and spent millions, then the state decided to delay the implementation of the new laws, this forced many competitor's of ours out of business since they like us tried to follow the coming law, the ones who benefited were those who told CA to kick sand and ran illegal equipment. I’m still pissed to this day that hundreds maybe thousands of great businesses in CA went under trying to be proactive and follow the law.

 

[SoggyShoes]

Ch11 restructring bankrsupty, not ch7 "the end" bankrupsy.

It's hard to understand their issues. I have an ocean, and it's an awesome car. I drive it everywhere. It is better than any other ev i've seen, including tesla, kia, hyundai. More power, more range, more room. Sure some software glitches, but they're being fixed with software updates, and I rarely ever encounter an issue.

Everything I have read shows this bankruptcy is much more a reflection of a long history of poor management than the quality of the product.

 

[Batvette]

This makes no sense. I don't drive my cell phone, nor did I spend $40K on it, nor would my old Star-Tac even operate on today's cellular network. Today's electronics are are many,many,many,many orders of magnitude better, faster, and more efficient than those of 10 years ago. The only thing you change with an electric vehicle vs an ICE one is the drive train. Your 60's muscle car is likely on it's 3rd engine, but at the core, cars from the 50's on are pretty much the same basic design: A carriage with a motor. You can go on Ebay motors and get a 2012 Nissan Leaf, which people do, and upgrade the battery packs from the original NiCd with a simple module. Still light on the range, but exactly how many horsepower did your '66 GTO with the 400+ cubic inch engine and Holly double-pumper put out? How many miles/gallon? Did we perhaps retro-fit a more modern fuel injected small V-6 in it? If not, do you ever actually drive it much?

A vehicle is a durable good, not a disposable one. Totally different paradigm than modern electronics.

I dont share your bizarre belief that EVs will be the first electronics devices immune to obsolecense due to technology advances and reliability issues due to heat, corrosion, vibration, and lack of repairability.

But keep the faith, bro, just dont promote the govt mandating ownership based upon bullshit figures its good for the planet.

If youre a homeowner its a good idea. For the over half of working age americans that arent, theyre a terrible idea and will lead to steep decline in quality of life.

 

[Batvette]

"You can go on Ebay motors and get a 2012 Nissan Leaf, which people do, and upgrade the battery packs from the original NiCd with a simple module."

Wow do you pull stuff out of your ass like that often? Thats complete nonsense. I think everyone on this site knows that the BMS and charging algorythms of nicd and lithium are completely different and theres no way a simple (battery) module change could work. EVERYthing would have to be replaced.
Document your claim and I will gladly retract this post, otherwise I gotta ask why your ideology could make you throw your integrity under the bus like that?

 

[Batvette]

Everything I have read shows this bankruptcy is much more a reflection of a long history of poor management than the quality of the product.

The best management in the corporate world cannot sell a product that has limited demand due to practicality issues, is so costly to produce theyre losing money on them, and face a number of safety issues that arent easily solved.
The actual quality of the product is not really the problem.

 

[Batvette]

Peak demand is mid to late afternoon. It's just that PV peaks Noon or early afternoon and still supplies much of the demand.

Used to be that the grid had off-peak surplus at night. Today the most surplus is around Noon.
What we need is PV putting power into the grid and EV charging while we're parked at work, with some reasonable payment for value of the power and value of redistributing power between rooftop PV and work EV chargers. (default is credit $0.02/kWh for backfeed, charge $0.50/kW for charging.)

Most businesses do not own the buildings they occupy. The cost of installing solar and charging stations to commercial leased properties is astronomical. Landlords wont do it and neither will tenants. The idea that a substantial amount of workers will ever have workplace charging for their vehicles is a fantasy. Sure theres a few corporations doing it for PR reasons, and probably getting fat govt tax breaks for doing it.
Do not make the mistake of thinking insurmountable hurdles will go away in the future, as long as we wish for magic beans hard enough.

 

[robbob2112]

Exactly.
(here gas is more like $4 to $5/gallon).

If you pay for turnkey GT PV, you make power for $0.10/kWh.
Hardware only for DIY, $0.025/kWh.

The problem is if we can't charge with the power we make, because we have to sell for wholesale, buy back at retail.

Battery for ESS can add $0.05 to $0.10/kWh.

Electric rates are about $0.45 off-peak, $0.65 on-peak.
Think those are supposed to drop about a nickel when monthly base rate increases from $10 to $24.

How does that work?

Forced to sell then buy back?
how do they know how much you produce?

or is it a case of you must sell the excess if there is no battery to absorb it and release to the EV when you are home? This becuase the excess times are at noon and you are home in the evening?

 

[Hedges]

Just not at home when producing.

It is instantaneous net metering, the single meter only registers total outflow or total inflow.

(not like some places which meter PV output separately from house load.)

Yes, excess production is middle of the day but we're typically home in the evening.
Since my wife usually works from home, giving her an EV would work. But she doesn't log many miles. I'm the one commuting but my car wouldn't be there during PV production hours.

All I mean is with net metering as previously, we could feed the grid during the day, get credit to charge at night. So our car isn't around to charge with the power we make.
When moved to NEM 3.0, credit will be 5% or 10% of what we pay for power, essentially nothing.

Adding a battery big enough to hold a day's charging (and nighttime household consumption), essentially operate off-grid, could be a solution but expensive.