Hello?My 12v setup

[Dadoftheturkeykids]

In the US you can google for buss bar copper and get real o2free pure copper buss bar stock. It is much cheaper than amazon or ebay and you can get lengths from 12" to 120" from most of them. And you drill/plate them yourself... Some will drill, bend and plate it to order.

I do have these ?? 1 1/2" x 1/2" x 26"
Already drilled and threaded

 

[robbob2112]

Polish the contact points before you use them. Ideally I'd polish the whole thing, plate with silver or tin, the use them

 

[Supervstech]

Question. Can I use the mrbf in line with the dc breakers I already have installed, for redundancy but also so I still have a means to easily turn off one single battery at will? Or would that cause unwanted voltage drops with more resistance? I like the idea of being able to top balance by connecting a charger to the negative and positive buss bars and turning off all circuits except for one battery at a time.

I would IMMEDIATELY get rid of those breakers.
They are garbage, and can cause issues with your system.
Same with the buss bars, but the copper you have will be fantastic.

 

[robbob2112]

I would IMMEDIATELY get rid of those breakers.
They are garbage, and can cause issues with your system.
Same with the buss bars, but the copper you have will be fantastic.

Sorry, i didnt read it was the junk breakers, he is right, toss them. If you want to use breakers get some good ones rated for DC or they are a fire hazard

 

[Dadoftheturkeykids]

I'm a little confused, these breakers are only rated for DC. What other options do I have? Like the mcb breakers I have from my panels to the charge controllers? But I wouldn't be able to mount my 4/0 wire to that style??

 

[Dadoftheturkeykids]

Polish the contact points before you use them. Ideally I'd polish the whole thing, plate with silver or tin, the use them

Being indoors in a semi-controlled humidity environment, is it necessary to plate them? I thought the plating was for use in environments that have a high moisture content in the air

 

[Supervstech]

I'm a little confused, these breakers are only rated for DC. What other options do I have? Like the mcb breakers I have from my panels to the charge controllers? But I wouldn't be able to mount my 4/0 wire to that style??

With proper fuses, you dont need breakers.
Just get a disconnect.

https://a.co/d/7eMesbj

 

[robbob2112]

Oh, you can polish them and just leave them pretty. They will oxidize but be fine. I might put a dab of ox-gard at the connection points.

The reason people are pointing out your breakers is because there are many instances of those melting or causing a fire. In particular the contacts weld closed so the circuit can't be broken. Look the part numbers up and you will see what I mean. Use a single disconnect after the class T, or one on each battery. Again good quality ones like from blue sea. The cheap ones don't have the best contacts and either won't handle the amps or have some resistance. They are also made out of plastic that burns easy verse stuff that doesn't.

 

[Liam M]

What mikefitz says above -

Replace the cheap breakers between the batteries and buss bars with MRBF fuses that mount right on the posts.
Make cables equal length.
Add a buss bar after the shunt so you can use a post per lug or at most only stack 2 lugs on a post.
Instead of a breaker from the load end of the red buss bar replace it with a class T fuse that is 120% of what you expect... meaning use a 300 amp fuse.

Others may disagree on some of this, but it is in your living area so play it safe.

Note on fuses and mounts - they are not all created equal. Stick to something like Blue Sea systems for the fuse holder - they are bullet proof and the made right. And there are many fake class T fuses and MRBF fuses on amazon. Stick to either Blue sea (relabeled quality fuses), BUSS, or Littelfuse brands to avoid the bad ones. Real MRBF fuses will cost about $15ish on amazon. Class T fuses run about $40ish.

Buss bars - are you using quality buss bars? or are you using the cheap $20 a pair buss bars? I ask because the cheap ones are not made from pure copper then plated, they are brass or other metals that don't conduct as well which means voltage drops and heat. Really good buss bars that are solid copper and plated run $30 to $40 each. LiTime has some that have covers with 4 posts that are good, I have a set and filed off a corner to see what it is made of. The other thing about the cheap buss bars is the bolts are set in the plastic with just screws to hold down the bars. This means there isn't any good way to keep the bolts from spinning and the plastic used won't stand up to hot spots if there is a connection issue, they will melt and catch fire.

I can't see for sure but I assume the cables from the buss bars to the inverter are also 4/0 like the ones from the batteries to the buss bars.

Get rid of the caps LiTime included with the batteries - in the manual they say don't leave them installed on active equipment, they are only used to prevent a short on the posts before install. Use something like these over all the cable ends.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08RHDD43L

In an ideal world there will be NO exposed metal that has power on it. You have kids so protect them from themselves, I would either add a key lock to the doors or put a sheet of plexiglass accross any exposed bits or the whole front so they can't touch anything without unscrewing stuff. If they are like me when I was young use security screws and hide the screwdriver.

Also, I don't see a main battery cutoff switch - Should be either before or after the shunt on the negative side. Don't cheap out here either - the $15 ones are tempting but use something like this that you can trust.

https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems-Battery-Switch/dp/B00445KFZ2/

And one last thing - ventilation - inverters and other things really put out heat - you need to at minimum cut some holes or slots at the top on the back to let it out with natural heat convective (i.e. hot air rises) ... ideally I'd put

What mikefitz says above -

Replace the cheap breakers between the batteries and buss bars with MRBF fuses that mount right on the posts.
Make cables equal length.
Add a buss bar after the shunt so you can use a post per lug or at most only stack 2 lugs on a post.
Instead of a breaker from the load end of the red buss bar replace it with a class T fuse that is 120% of what you expect... meaning use a 300 amp fuse.

Others may disagree on some of this, but it is in your living area so play it safe.

Note on fuses and mounts - they are not all created equal. Stick to something like Blue Sea systems for the fuse holder - they are bullet proof and the made right. And there are many fake class T fuses and MRBF fuses on amazon. Stick to either Blue sea (relabeled quality fuses), BUSS, or Littelfuse brands to avoid the bad ones. Real MRBF fuses will cost about $15ish on amazon. Class T fuses run about $40ish.

Buss bars - are you using quality buss bars? or are you using the cheap $20 a pair buss bars? I ask because the cheap ones are not made from pure copper then plated, they are brass or other metals that don't conduct as well which means voltage drops and heat. Really good buss bars that are solid copper and plated run $30 to $40 each. LiTime has some that have covers with 4 posts that are good, I have a set and filed off a corner to see what it is made of. The other thing about the cheap buss bars is the bolts are set in the plastic with just screws to hold down the bars. This means there isn't any good way to keep the bolts from spinning and the plastic used won't stand up to hot spots if there is a connection issue, they will melt and catch fire.

I can't see for sure but I assume the cables from the buss bars to the inverter are also 4/0 like the ones from the batteries to the buss bars.

Get rid of the caps LiTime included with the batteries - in the manual they say don't leave them installed on active equipment, they are only used to prevent a short on the posts before install. Use something like these over all the cable ends.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08RHDD43L

In an ideal world there will be NO exposed metal that has power on it. You have kids so protect them from themselves, I would either add a key lock to the doors or put a sheet of plexiglass accross any exposed bits or the whole front so they can't touch anything without unscrewing stuff. If they are like me when I was young use security screws and hide the screwdriver.

Also, I don't see a main battery cutoff switch - Should be either before or after the shunt on the negative side. Don't cheap out here either - the $15 ones are tempting but use something like this that you can trust.

https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems-Battery-Switch/dp/B00445KFZ2/

And one last thing - ventilation - inverters and other things really put out heat - you need to at minimum cut some holes or slots at the top on the back to let it out with natural heat convective (i.e. hot air rises) ... ideally I'd put a temperature controlled fan in both sides blowing out near the top and cut a couple of vent holes at the bottom front of each compartment and then holes at the bottom back of the drawer compartments. i.e. make sure the air can draft across the hot equipment.

And last but not least put a battery powered smoke detector in each compartment to alert you if there is a fire. Use ionizing ones that will also detect smoke as well as flames. The more time you have to know something is wrong the better the more time you have to either extinguish it or call 911.


plan for the worst, hope for the best.

and Welcome

What mikefitz says above. Really good buss bars that are solid copper and plated run $30 to $40 each. LiTime has some that have covers with 4 posts that are good, I have a set and filed off a corner to see what it is made of.

I bought the Li Time bus bars, just received.
Amazon link states material: copper (I now see it says copper, but then states bus is nickel plated brass.
Manual that came with the bus bars states bus material: nickel plated brass.

 

[Dadoftheturkeykids]

I bought the Li Time bus bars, just received.
Amazon link states material: copper (I now see it says copper, but then states bus is nickel plated brass.
Manual that came with the bus bars states bus material: nickel plated brass.

Amazon talks in circles sometimes. I bought some mcb breakers from there that said for solar in the title but apparently missed the part in the item description where it said for AC. I had to return them and get DC rated breakers. Good to know that litime bussbars aren't actually copper tho, thanks for the heads up

 

[Liam M]

Amazon talks in circles sometimes. I bought some mcb breakers from there that said for solar in the title but apparently missed the part in the item description where it said for AC. I had to return them and get DC rated breakers. Good to know that litime bussbars aren't actually copper tho, thanks for the heads up

An earlier reply in this thread, the poster said he filed a corner and it was copper. With conflicting info on Amazon, I’ve emailed Li Time.
They replied stating: “screws are stainless steel, terminals are copper silver plated”.
I’ve emailed back for clarification.
I -hope- they’re copper, as they’re real nice bus bars with covers.

 

[robbob2112]

An earlier reply in this thread, the poster said he filed a corner and it was copper. With conflicting info on Amazon, I’ve emailed Li Time.
They replied stating: “screws are stainless steel, terminals are copper silver plated”.
I’ve emailed back for clarification.
I -hope- they’re copper, as they’re real nice bus bars with covers.

For those thinking TL;DR you will be missing out on intersting stuff if you don't at least read the text of the message - I don't blame you for skipping the attached.


I hang my head in shame and regret that I have but one set of buss bars to sacrifice to the cause. Actully, I'll use them just the same.

After reading this I went back and filed deeper and more. Earlier I stopped too soon when I was filing the corner down and I saw copper. Under the copper plating is brass.

I am no metallurgist or plater but I would bet you have to plate brass with copper to get the top layer of nickle to stick.

I admit my error and am forever shamed...

ok, maybe not, it was an honest mistake after all.



Edit - found this

Copper plating under Nickel is definitely not compulsory, but if you do choose to add this step into the plating process it will definitely improve the overall finish of the Nickel.


AND ------- Chatgpt answers some nagging questions.

So, to redeem myself I asked chatgpt to tell me how much current they could carry - The conversation is below along with driving into the difference between copper and brass and then into temperature/resistance at each post.


So even the worst quality brass used as a bussbar for this would still carry more than twice the rated capacity and not heat more than a degree or so. Even using a steel washer between the lug and the bussbar with a tight connection isn't an issue. It becomes and issue when in an enclosed space and corrosion is present. I would never advocat for it, but from the data listed it is not as bad as it would seem.


Question :
Back to capacity calculation on buss bar, assume the cheapest brass, what is the current carrying capacity... assume the best quality brass for use as a bussbar... and then copper made for bussbar use.... give it to me in a little chart

Answer : (chatGPT)
To provide a comparison of the current-carrying capacity of busbars made from the cheapest brass, the best quality brass, and copper specifically made for busbar use, we'll consider the typical conductivity values for these materials and calculate their ampacity. The current-carrying capacity largely depends on the conductivity of the material.

1. **Cheapest Brass**: Typically has lower conductivity due to a higher zinc content. Let's assume a conductivity of about 28% IACS.

2. **Best Quality Brass**: Higher-quality brass for electrical use will have higher copper content, thus better conductivity. We can assume a conductivity of about 50% IACS.

3. **Copper**: Copper used for busbars is usually highly conductive, close to 100% IACS.

The ampacity calculation will be based on the cross-sectional area of the busbar and the current density, which is influenced by the material's conductivity. For simplicity, let's use the same dimensions for the busbar as before (25.5mm wide, 6.5mm thick), and we'll use a conservative range of current density of 4 to 6 A/mm² for brass, adjusting for the conductivity, and 6 to 8 A/mm² for copper.

Let's proceed with these calculations and present them in a chart.

Here's a comparison of the current-carrying capacity (ampacity) for busbars made from the cheapest brass, the best quality brass, and copper, based on the typical conductivity values and the dimensions you provided earlier (25.5mm wide, 6.5mm thick):

| Material | Min Ampacity (A) | Max Ampacity (A) |
|---------------------|------------------|------------------|
| Cheapest Brass | 663 | 994.5 |
| Best Quality Brass | 828.75 | 1160.25 |
| Copper | 994.5 | 1326 |

- **Cheapest Brass**: Assumes a conductivity of about 28% IACS, leading to an ampacity range of 663 A to 994.5 A.
- **Best Quality Brass**: Assumes a conductivity of about 50% IACS, with an ampacity range of 828.75 A to 1160.25 A.
- **Copper**: Assumes a conductivity close to 100% IACS, resulting in an ampacity range of 994.5 A to 1326 A.

This table highlights the significant difference in current-carrying capacity based on the material's conductivity, with copper providing the highest capacity due to its superior conductivity.




Question :
Define AICS as relates to this conversation

Answer : (chatGPT)
In our conversation, "IACS" was mentioned, which stands for the International Annealed Copper Standard. It's a standard used to compare the electrical conductivity of various conductive materials. Here's a brief overview:

1. **IACS Definition**: IACS is a measure of electrical conductivity where the conductivity of annealed copper is defined as 100% at a temperature of 20°C (68°F). This standard was established because annealed copper (a form of copper that has been softened by heating and cooling) has very high electrical conductivity.

2. **Use in Comparisons**: The IACS value is used as a benchmark to compare the conductivity of other materials. For instance, a material with a conductivity of 50% IACS would have half the electrical conductivity of annealed copper.

3. **Application in Our Discussion**: In the context of our discussion, IACS was used to compare the electrical conductivities of different types of brass and copper. Since pure copper is at 100% IACS, brass, which is an alloy of copper and zinc, has lower IACS values (such as 28% to 50% IACS), indicating lower electrical conductivity compared to pure copper.

Understanding IACS is important in applications where electrical conductivity is a key factor, such as in the design and use of busbars and other electrical conductors.


The rest is in the attached text file and should make for an interesting read -- the Full session and the raw text for tho

 

[robbob2112]

And since I curious I asked about it about pipe for bussbars and lugs

1. 1/2-Inch Copper Pipe Pounded Flat:
   • Cross-Sectional Area: The cross-sectional area of a circular pipe is typically calculated using the formula for the area of a circle (A = πr^2), where r is the radius. Since the pipe is flattened, we need to consider its width and thickness.
   • For a 1/2-inch pipe, the radius (r) is 1/4 inch. Let's assume the flattened pipe has a width of 1 inch and a thickness of 1/16 inch (0.0625 inches).
2. 3/4-Inch Copper Pipe Pounded Flat:
   • Cross-Sectional Area: Similarly, for a 3/4-inch pipe, the radius (r) is 3/8 inch. Let's assume the flattened pipe has a width of 1.5 inches and a thickness of 1/8 inch (0.125 inches).

Now, let's recalculate the current-carrying capacity for both sizes of flattened copper pipes.
Based on the calculations, here are the estimated current-carrying capacities for flattened copper pipes:

1. 1/2-Inch Copper Pipe Pounded Flat:
   • Estimated Current-Carrying Capacity: Approximately 2403.22 amps
2. 3/4-Inch Copper Pipe Pounded Flat:
   • Estimated Current-Carrying Capacity: Approximately 7209.66 amps

Please note that these estimates are based on the cross-sectional area of the flattened pipes and the electrical conductivity of copper. The current-carrying capacity of the flattened pipes is proportional to their cross-sectional area. The larger the flattened pipe, the higher the current it can carry.


A 1/4-inch copper pipe with one end flattened and formed into a lug can carry a significantly lower current compared to larger flattened pipes or traditional lugs. The current-carrying capacity depends on the cross-sectional area of the flattened and formed lug.

To estimate the current-carrying capacity of such a lug, we need to consider the dimensions of the flattened end and the electrical conductivity of copper. Let's make some assumptions for the dimensions:

- Width of the flattened end: 1/2 inch (0.5 inches)
- Thickness of the flattened end: 1/16 inch (0.0625 inches)

Now, we can calculate the cross-sectional area and estimate the current-carrying capacity based on the conductivity of copper.

Let's proceed with the calculation:

A 1/4-inch copper pipe with one end flattened and formed into a lug, with a width of 1/2 inch and a thickness of 1/16 inch, can carry an estimated current of approximately 1201.61 amps.

Please note that this is an estimate and is based on the cross-sectional area of the flattened and formed lug and the electrical conductivity of copper. The current-carrying capacity can vary depending on the exact dimensions, quality of the connection, and temperature conditions.

When using such lugs for electrical connections, it's essential to ensure that they meet safety standards and are suitable for the intended application. Additionally, consider factors such as temperature rise and voltage drop to ensure safe and reliable performance.

 

[Liam M]

For those thinking TL;DR you will be missing out on intersting stuff if you don't at least read the text of the message - I don't blame you for skipping the attached.


I hang my head in shame and regret that I have but one set of buss bars to sacrifice to the cause. Actully, I'll use them just the same.

After reading this I went back and filed deeper and more. Earlier I stopped too soon when I was filing the corner down and I saw copper. Under the copper plating is brass.

I am no metallurgist or plater but I would bet you have to plate brass with copper to get the top layer of nickle to stick.

I admit my error and am forever shamed...

ok, maybe not, it was an honest mistake after all.



Edit - found this

Copper plating under Nickel is definitely not compulsory, but if you do choose to add this step into the plating process it will definitely improve the overall finish of the Nickel.


AND ------- Chatgpt answers some nagging questions.

So, to redeem myself I asked chatgpt to tell me how much current they could carry - The conversation is below along with driving into the difference between copper and brass and then into temperature/resistance at each post.


So even the worst quality brass used as a bussbar for this would still carry more than twice the rated capacity and not heat more than a degree or so. Even using a steel washer between the lug and the bussbar with a tight connection isn't an issue. It becomes and issue when in an enclosed space and corrosion is present. I would never advocat for it, but from the data listed it is not as bad as it would seem.


Question :
Back to capacity calculation on buss bar, assume the cheapest brass, what is the current carrying capacity... assume the best quality brass for use as a bussbar... and then copper made for bussbar use.... give it to me in a little chart

Answer : (chatGPT)
To provide a comparison of the current-carrying capacity of busbars made from the cheapest brass, the best quality brass, and copper specifically made for busbar use, we'll consider the typical conductivity values for these materials and calculate their ampacity. The current-carrying capacity largely depends on the conductivity of the material.

1. **Cheapest Brass**: Typically has lower conductivity due to a higher zinc content. Let's assume a conductivity of about 28% IACS.

2. **Best Quality Brass**: Higher-quality brass for electrical use will have higher copper content, thus better conductivity. We can assume a conductivity of about 50% IACS.

3. **Copper**: Copper used for busbars is usually highly conductive, close to 100% IACS.

The ampacity calculation will be based on the cross-sectional area of the busbar and the current density, which is influenced by the material's conductivity. For simplicity, let's use the same dimensions for the busbar as before (25.5mm wide, 6.5mm thick), and we'll use a conservative range of current density of 4 to 6 A/mm² for brass, adjusting for the conductivity, and 6 to 8 A/mm² for copper.

Let's proceed with these calculations and present them in a chart.

Here's a comparison of the current-carrying capacity (ampacity) for busbars made from the cheapest brass, the best quality brass, and copper, based on the typical conductivity values and the dimensions you provided earlier (25.5mm wide, 6.5mm thick):

| Material | Min Ampacity (A) | Max Ampacity (A) |
|---------------------|------------------|------------------|
| Cheapest Brass | 663 | 994.5 |
| Best Quality Brass | 828.75 | 1160.25 |
| Copper | 994.5 | 1326 |

- **Cheapest Brass**: Assumes a conductivity of about 28% IACS, leading to an ampacity range of 663 A to 994.5 A.
- **Best Quality Brass**: Assumes a conductivity of about 50% IACS, with an ampacity range of 828.75 A to 1160.25 A.
- **Copper**: Assumes a conductivity close to 100% IACS, resulting in an ampacity range of 994.5 A to 1326 A.

This table highlights the significant difference in current-carrying capacity based on the material's conductivity, with copper providing the highest capacity due to its superior conductivity.




Question :
Define AICS as relates to this conversation

Answer : (chatGPT)
In our conversation, "IACS" was mentioned, which stands for the International Annealed Copper Standard. It's a standard used to compare the electrical conductivity of various conductive materials. Here's a brief overview:

1. **IACS Definition**: IACS is a measure of electrical conductivity where the conductivity of annealed copper is defined as 100% at a temperature of 20°C (68°F). This standard was established because annealed copper (a form of copper that has been softened by heating and cooling) has very high electrical conductivity.

2. **Use in Comparisons**: The IACS value is used as a benchmark to compare the conductivity of other materials. For instance, a material with a conductivity of 50% IACS would have half the electrical conductivity of annealed copper.

3. **Application in Our Discussion**: In the context of our discussion, IACS was used to compare the electrical conductivities of different types of brass and copper. Since pure copper is at 100% IACS, brass, which is an alloy of copper and zinc, has lower IACS values (such as 28% to 50% IACS), indicating lower electrical conductivity compared to pure copper.

Understanding IACS is important in applications where electrical conductivity is a key factor, such as in the design and use of busbars and other electrical conductors.


The rest is in the attached text file and should make for an interesting read -- the Full session and the raw text for tho

Thanks loads for doing this and for posting the chat! I’ve been using chatgpt for a lot of things myself, way better than google.
Thanks also for taking one for the team with the bus bars.
Before reading this I started trying to file mine down to see - the nickel plating is pretty thick, no? I stopped because I didn’t want to file down a corner to much, an edge is better as I see you did. I see you took yours out of the case - so the hex bolts are in the plate, not in the plastic I guess?
Li Time hasn’t replied to my email since they said they’re “copper silver plated”. lol I guess they’re not -lying- if both materials were used in the plating process.

I will add though - even the bus bars being sold by Current Connected are listed as nickel plated brass.
So what’s the deal I’m wondering - maybe these are perfectly fine??

 

[Dadoftheturkeykids]

Sorry I forgot you mentioned filing and seeing copper robbob, but all in all I guess it turned out to be brass after all. This concerns me that litime emailed Liam and told him the bussbars are copper plated with silver, when in fact robbob did the real world test and found a brass interior. I'm hoping that the agent that told you this was just ill-informed because you did state that the manual said they were brass.. I'm kind of worried now my 4-200ah batteries may not be
"automotive-grade cells"

 

[robbob2112]

From the plating being copper first then nickel that means they care about appearance. And I can infer they probably didn't use lowest quality brass. Even if they did they are good for twice the rated amps. The screws are actually grub screw verse bolts. There are allen hex heads visible from the bottom. This is a good way to do it and they are easily replaced if needed. Two phillips head screws hold it down, you can feel them through the backing.

Overall I would give these an 8 out of 10. The end cuts are a bit rough, more like a shear cut verse a laser or something that leaves a neat end. This doesn't make any difference to the function.

Net result is unless you are going to run more 600amps you are good.

This all opens my eyes to something. Can you get good measurements from your cheaper bars? We can poke it through chatgpt and see what they will actually carry. They might not be junk from metal size but the do have less than good bolt attachment. Meaning take them apart and measure them, then see how thebolts attach and if that can be switched to copper grub screwsand copper bolts or something.

Also, clean up your old bars with the holes and you are more than set. When I get round to doing a battery bank I'll buy 1.5x.375 copper and me more than covered. That way it is thick enough to hold grub screws.

I think they might have meant the grub screws were copper plated silver.... I'll file the top of a screw tomorrow and see.

 

[Dadoftheturkeykids]

Yeah sure, I could measure them up tomorrow, they seem pretty good quality the back mold forms over the hex head bolts and they kind of float there until you tighten the nut on top which pulls it against the buss which has 2 Phillips screws holding it to the plastic. They claim on amazon that they are copper, but I'm having doubts if your higher end bars are concealed brass

 

[Dadoftheturkeykids]

I'd give you one of my big copper bars if you were in town lol

 

[robbob2112]

I'd give you one of my big copper bars if you were in town lol

I might be willing to pay ground shipping, cant be to much... how heavy are they?

 

[Dadoftheturkeykids]

Not sure but they got some heft to them, a couple pounds. I picked these up at a junkyard for a marked up steel price. A quick search showed me how valuable these are, I wouldn't give any more away lol