How long can you (and your family) survive if the grid went down for an extended period?

[TOU47]

Consumers requested healthier options from fast food places and the market decided. But you can still make french fries in beef fat at home if you want to.

Which is very questionably more healthy. I.E. "vegetable oil" that isn't naturally occurring with out serious hydraulic presses doesn't come from vegetables,

Slight deviation..."high percentage of polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) – which are unstable, and break down rapidly when exposed to chemical stress and heat...

...refining process not only strips away antioxidants, it makes PUFAs toxic by exposing them to heat, pressure, metals and bleaching agents. This chemically alters the molecules into a wide variety of potent toxins."

I.E. free radical production

"cooking with vegetable oils releases high concentrations of toxic chemicals called aldehydes"

No Corn oil, Canola (also called rapeseed) oil, Cottonseed oil, Soy oil, Sunflower oil, Safflower oil, Grapeseed oil and Rice bran oil for me. I'll stick olive, avocado, coconut &...beef talo when I can find it. And... the flavors are so much better.

I survived a less serious cancer but cancer nevertheless at 49, which makes me much more careful what I intake in my 2nd half century. ?

 

[Solarcabin Channel]

Liberty Biogas Generator

Doesn't show how it even works?

 

[SamDeleted]

Doesn't show how it even works?

Lots of different plans available online, there's more than one way to skin a cat ,

the guy who invented the Liberty generator claim's his gets more gas than other systems , but you have to pay for the plans !


Some free ones:

 

[SamDeleted]

This video is particularly good

 

[muaddib721]

Water system and heating water for cooking and bathing
...I have my own well. Water heater easily runs on batteries/solar

Fresh and frozen food storage and preparation
...That's classified

Emergency health devices like a CPAP or oxygen machine
...Not needed but we're well stocked on meds

communications systems like phone, internet, or short wave radio
...Extra class amateur with all the gear

Heating or cooling your home without gas, propane or a generator.
...Batteries/solar easily run the heat pumps and pellet stove.

Transportation if you need to leave your home
...Got it covered, roads or no roads

security to keep your family safe like alarms, cameras etc,
...Off network cameras, two dogs, ample supply of pew pew and freedom seeds.

Taking care of special needs people that live with you
...NA

Entertainment to pass the time
...Library of over 600 DVD's

sanitation and waste disposal if septic and water is cut off
...I have my own on property septic system

Love the answer to fresh food and frozen food storage.... I'd roll with that answer on most of these. Most of this is on a need to know basis.

 

[Brucey]

Do people still use kero for heating their houses in the states?


Generally a truck comes and fills up their big 900gallon ~ tank , correct?

Contact the firm that does the filling , generally they'll let you bring a container to their depot and buy kero in small amounts

Kerosene can come in handy for emergency heat, when combined with a heater, as they don't need power to run.

I'm not sure on current pricing but fuel oil for heating got pretty expensive the last few years. Propane used to be pretty cheap in comparison but that got expensive too.

 

[Solarcabin Channel]

I'm not sure on current pricing but fuel oil for heating got pretty expensive the last few years. Propane used to be pretty cheap in comparison but that got expensive too.

Over $10 a gallon for kerosene at walmart and tractor supply.

That s expensive heat!

The dynaglo propane radiant heater is what I use and they are well made.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

Diesel also does not store well

What? Diesel stores very well.

Diesel has 140k btu per gallon and propane has 92k btu per gallon but average price for propane per gallon in the US is under $2.50.

For convenience heating as discussed, propane in this region is lower but similar cost per btu as grid electricity - electric heat is 100% efficient because it doesn’t vent and it requires no power beyond the power it uses to make heat. Fuel oil costs less per btu in general than propane, here. Pellets at last check have risen in demand enough that they cost almost as much as cordwood per btu. Coal is still the least expensive where it can be had.

99.7% efficient in modern propane appliances.

Dubious- there’s other factors of efficiency you left out.

Must be a regional thing

You must live a) lower latitude b) in a city
Kero is available multiple places in Vermont.

gallon of kerosene at walmart is $10.70. $60 for 5 gallons at tractor supply

nobody in their right mind would by that!

Do people still use kero for heating their houses in the states?

mobile homes with forced air heat and outside 275gal tanks do. #2 gels in winter.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

30# 7 gallon tank lasts me a week or longer in winter

Not in Vermont!!

 

[Solarcabin Channel]

What? Diesel stores very well.

No, diesel does not store well at all.

"Diesel fuel can only be stored from 6 to 12 months on average — sometimes longer under the best conditions. Generally, to prolong the life of the quality of stored diesel fuel, it should be: Kept cool at around 70 degrees Fahrenheit; Treated with biocides and stabilizers."

Not everyone lives in Vermont.

 

[42OhmsPA]

No, diesel does not store well at all.

"Diesel fuel can only be stored from 6 to 12 months on average — sometimes longer under the best conditions. Generally, to prolong the life of the quality of stored diesel fuel, it should be: Kept cool at around 70 degrees Fahrenheit; Treated with biocides and stabilizers."

Not everyone lives in Vermont.

Every article has different opinions... It would be nice if you gave a source to your cut and pastes.
My heating oil tank with lots of off-road diesel has been fine for years running my oil fired hot water heater.

" Even without treating it, diesel fuel will last for a year with no problems at all. It’s just an inherently stable product. When treated with fuel stabilizer, the life of diesel fuel can be extended beyond five years."

The Key To Long-Term Diesel And Gas Storage

When fuel such as diesel or gasoline is readily available, most people don’t think of the ramifications of storing it. After all, if you need more, just go to the pump and get it! But in a survival situation, especially a prolonged one, fuel will be a prime consideration, mainly for two reasons...

www.offthegridnews.com

 

[Solarcabin Channel]

It would be nice if you gave a source to your cut and pastes.

Your own link supports that same information.

"Even without treating it, diesel fuel will last for a year with no problems at all. It’s just an inherently stable product. When treated with fuel stabilizer, the life of diesel fuel can be extended beyond five years. The main enemies of diesel fuel storage are algae and water. All fuels are somewhat hygroscopic, meaning they attract water molecules. This water not only waters the fuel down, it also provides a home for algae, which lives quite nicely inside of a diesel tank. Consider that both water and algae wreak havoc in diesel fuel filters and regulators, plugging them up to the point where the engine will die. Your main defense against water and algae is two fold:"

Diesel does not store well for long periods without treatment and under controlled temperatures.

Propane on the other hand:

"Properly stored, propane fuel will last indefinitely without degrading, ready to use on a moment's notice. For all intents and purposes, there's no limit to its shelf life."

"Does propane go bad in storage?
The simple answer is propane can last for decades. As a matter of fact, it is one of the most storage-friendly, stable and resilient energy sources around. With no expiration date, propane won't degrade or lose its potency over time, so its shelf life is extremely long."

Propane’s Shelf Life. Storage Friendly, Stable & Durable For Years | Paraco Gas

Propane is one of the most storage-friendly, stable & resilient energy sources around. Propane won’t degrade or lose its potency over time

paracogas.com

 

[Solarcabin Channel]

I have backups and backups for the backups.

I use propane for heating, cooking and OD water heater but I also have a wood cook stove with water heating tank if needed.

I have many small electrical cook appliances and most take under 700 watts and cook fast. Some like a mini dash griddle uses 300 watts. Microwave about 1200 watts. Air fryer 700 watts. So those will all run off a small system or power station.

I also have some no power backups like a solar shower bag that can be set in the sun to heat water and I have made my own solar water heaters our of 2 liter soda bottles and they work great. Ebike and pedal bike with a trailer for hauling stuff.

I lived with just a 45 watt HF solar panel and old truck battery and survived fine but I don't want to go back to that if possible. Showered outside, cooked and heated with wood, shit in a bucket to compost, and hunted small game and foraged for food. I could do it again!

 

[HOU_Castle]

Most of you have your solar power systems installed so just running the basic necessities for your home how long can you run your system if the grid was to go down for an extended period and you can't get gas, propane, or resupply?

You all probably remember the Texas blackout of winter 2021: "At the peak, over 5 million people in Texas were without power, with 11 million experiencing an outage at some point, some for more than 3 days."

Share your experience with blackouts and your backup systems you have in place or want to get and maybe it will help other people.

Not interested in political views and this is just a "what if" thought experiment to stimulate ideas.

Consider the following:

Water system and heating water for cooking and bathing
Fresh and frozen food storage and preparation
Emergency health devices like a CPAP or oxygen machine
communications systems like phone, internet, or short wave radio
Heating or cooling your home without gas, propane or a generator.
Transportation if you need to leave your home
security to keep your family safe like alarms, cameras etc,
Taking care of special needs people that live with you
Entertainment to pass the time
sanitation and waste disposal if septic and water is cut off

My family and I lived in New Orleans for about 5 years and survived 2 direct hits from Summer hurricanes (Zeta in 2020 and Ida in 2021).
Hurricane Ida is the worst, and my family n I survived 9 days and 8 nights without power.

My setup is portable solar gen for emergency purposes ONLY:
4 solar panels 350W, 2 MPPTs, 2 PSW inverters (24V and 12V), 1 LFP battery - 12V 200Ah, 1 LFP battery - 24V 200Ah.; 65Qt freezer runs out of 12/24V battery, a full size refrigerator/freezer (120V), an efficient 8k btu window AC unit, several rechargeable fans/flash lights, and rechargeable Radio AM/FM.
At that time, the ambient temp high was 90-95F; water and natural gas were available as well.
In case, water is not available, I have a barrel drum water storage and 10 gallons drinking water.
And I have 2 propane tanks plus burner for cooking.

Basically, I prepped my family mentally (4 members) that we needed to live uncomfortably aka survival mode. We cramped everybody in one small room for sleeping ONLY (installed portable efficient window AC, surprisingly only used 650W for 6.5 hrs temp was set at 78F).
Time/eqpt/power management are the keys. Weeks before hurricane season, I did time study for each appliance/eqpt; LFP batteries capacity, and MPPT capabilities during cloudy days. A good MPPT is crucial. I have Victron (both MPPTs). It's worth to spend extra on Victron.

Lesson learned from my setup:
a small fossil generator is needed when you have 2 or more overcast/rainy days OR an additional solar panel and LFP battery. During 9 days without power, I had 2 days overcast and raining back to back. It put me on edge as my solar production was cut in half.
Having a small genset will ease my stress ......... and its cheaper than investing on another solar panels/LFP battery/MPPT.

To keep my family and I busy, we cleaned tons of debris around the house. In total, we collected 50 super big trash bags just within 4 days.
Clearing out tree limbs, cleaning front/backyard patios, and etc. Basically, tons of works to keep us busy within 9 days.

Hope this helps.

 

[Crowz]

No, diesel does not store well at all.

"Diesel fuel can only be stored from 6 to 12 months on average — sometimes longer under the best conditions. Generally, to prolong the life of the quality of stored diesel fuel, it should be: Kept cool at around 70 degrees Fahrenheit; Treated with biocides and stabilizers."

Not everyone lives in Vermont.

Ok your clueless here. Ive got the same diesel in one of my trucks for the last 14 years and I move it around from time to time so its still running fine.

Ive got a tractor thats running on the same fuel from 13 years ago. I just burned some brush with diesel out of a 50 gallon barrel that has been in there for over 20 years.

The biggest worry I have about old diesel is algae or water getting in not it "going bad".

 

[Supervstech]

I wouldnt say clueless...
Because cold weather and diesel fuel are concerns, but yeah... diesel fuel stores quite well.
Now, maybe this newer low sulfur biodiesel mix diesel may not last nearly as long as the old stuff did...

 

[Crowz]

I wouldnt say clueless...
Because cold weather and diesel fuel are concerns, but yeah... diesel fuel stores quite well.
Now, maybe this newer low sulfur biodiesel mix diesel may not last nearly as long as the old stuff did...

Its possible they will screw it up eventually with changes. I think all of the old diesel I have is ulsd as its been in use for a fairly long time now but I won't swear to that.

I know the stuff that's in my grandfathers tractors and tanks is pre ulsd since some of its been in there for 40 years

Unlike democrats and voting my grandfather quit buying diesel and stuff when he died......
(sorry couldn't resist adding that)

 

[Solarcabin Channel]

The biggest worry I have about old diesel is algae or water getting in not it "going bad".

Who are you quoting there?

You just repeated what I posted with the links saying algae, water and gelling make diesel hard to store for long periods.

By the way, I worked for a petroleum company selling diesel for several years and ran farm equipment with diesel and am very familiar with those issues

Have a great day!

 

[Crowz]

Who are you quoting there?

You just repeated what I posted with the links saying algae, water and gelling make diesel hard to store for long periods.

Have a great day!

NO. I did not validate anything you posted.

You made a blanket statement that diesel does not store well. It stores fine. Just don't add water to it and if you have algae issues add something to kill it.

It has to be kept warm enough to flow. Water has that issue too which is why your pipes freeze and burst if you don't take precautions. The water hasn't gone "bad" because it won't flow when frozen

 

[Supervstech]

Same here.
My little tractor has had the same fuel in it for the last 20 years. Last year when i cranked it up, i did have to clear some sludge out of the filter.

 

[Solarcabin Channel]

Just don't add water to it

"Why does diesel fuel get water in it?

Condensation in tank: When it is warmer outside the tank than it is inside, condensation will form and this "sweat" will enter the fuel. This can occur over and over, creating more free water each time."

Leakage into tank: Rain, pressure washing or ground water can all be sources of water getting into a damaged or improperly sealed tank. Inground tanks (at filling stations, for example) can sometimes have inlets below grade. The area around the cap can easily fill with rain water. If the water level is above the cap when removed, gravity will cause the water to flow right down into the tank. "

Water is the Enemy of Diesel Engines│Donaldson Engine & Vehicle

Water causes damage to both fuel tanks and engine parts. Component life is also shortened by water etching, erosion, cavitation and spalling. Diesel fuel will always contain a certain percentage of water. The goal is to keep water levels within acceptable limits, well below the saturation point.

www.donaldson.com

 

[Crowz]

"Why does diesel fuel get water in it?

Condensation in tank: When it is warmer outside the tank than it is inside, condensation will form and this "sweat" will enter the fuel. This can occur over and over, creating more free water each time."

Leakage into tank: Rain, pressure washing or ground water can all be sources of water getting into a damaged or improperly sealed tank. Inground tanks (at filling stations, for example) can sometimes have inlets below grade. The area around the cap can easily fill with rain water. If the water level is above the cap when removed, gravity will cause the water to flow right down into the tank. "

Water is the Enemy of Diesel Engines│Donaldson Engine & Vehicle

Water causes damage to both fuel tanks and engine parts. Component life is also shortened by water etching, erosion, cavitation and spalling. Diesel fuel will always contain a certain percentage of water. The goal is to keep water levels within acceptable limits, well below the saturation point.

www.donaldson.com

Ok lets look at this.

Condensation in the tank. Condensation doesn't appear from the ether. It forms from moisture in the tank and if its sealed its a fixed amount that isn't going "grow" over time. One and done.

Leakage into the tank..... Ok to compare this to your love of propane go poke a hole in an empty tank and then go fill it up with propane. Let us know how well that "stores over time"

Also add some moisture to propane and see how well it flows thru the jets.

Diesel stores fine. If you can't be bothered to store it properly its not the fuels fault.

 

[Solarcabin Channel]

Using any fuel source for an extended period will eventually run out and as I said in the OP:

"Most of you have your solar power systems installed so just running the basic necessities for your home how long can you run your system if the grid was to go down for an extended period and you can't get gas, propane, or resupply?"

 

[Crowz]

Backup fuel of some kind is going to be on most peoples list of how to survive for extended periods. Maybe not "forever" but for extended periods I imagine most people on this forum use a generator for that.

 

[Hedges]

That's the only way to eat them. Many restaurants / brew pubs in my area still know how to make them. Steaks must be eaten still mooin!

Your slaughterhouses must not be like our slaughterhouses.
Restaurants don't serve it that way anymore over here, kept killing their customers.

Leakage into the tank..... Ok to compare this to your love of propane go poke a hole in an empty tank and then go fill it up with propane. Let us know how well that "stores over time"

Also add some moisture to propane and see how well it flows thru the jets.

Diesel tank pulls vacuum as fuel is drained, drawing in one charge of air. Perhaps a desiccant in breather would help. I got one with a cord to drop in tank.

Propane maintains pressure (depending on temperature), and no water is going to get in.
(just don't let rust make a hole. Like some spray cans I left outside.

Gasoline is a bigger problem. If the tank isn't sealed, it breathes in a fresh charge of air every night and condenses the water, filling up over time.
What you want is a pressure cap with vacuum breaker, like on cars. Or a portable tank like for a boat with manual seal valve.