Is such a thing as off grid internet possible?

[Gueyog8a7]

Is it an oxymoron? I dont think it necessarily is because the internet itself is discussing something totally different to the service providers who allow you access or is it? I have to think more about that.

I was thinking how in moving nearly everything else off grid, no longer renting and paying for all the services I thought that one of the last things you would have to keep renting is access to the internet.

Once I had a patch of land I could see myself doing away with internet to become almost totally isolated from the world, maybe instead relying on books from chosen authors, but while learning about all this stuff I feel it is invaluable and would be a great deprivation to give up and slow down progress towards maximum self sufficiency. Even if only using books though I would have to find out about them somehow. I doubt public libraries will have up to date information on permaculture and off grid living. Even then I would use their computers I guess to see what books were available to order in so kind of defeats the purpose although there is still something to be said for not having always on immediate access.

So if I wanted books from specific authors especially with small, grass roots, companies they are probably only going to be advertised online.

Is there no bootstrapped open source way to access the internet though? Do we always have to be tied to line rental and such? The only ways I can think of not to pay would just be piggybacking from places that provide free wifi so that is not really a solution just offsetting the problem.

What is it about internet that makes us reliant on commercial service providers and not able to DIY it? I am guessing there isnt a practical way as never seen it discussed before online. Not that I actively thought about it until now but think I would have happened across discussion of it by now if it was a thing.

 

[houseofancients]

Starlink ?

 

[Rocketman]

If you have cell signal- the cell provider …
If no cell signal - Starlink works great.

If you are close to a main internet trunk line- you can tap into that and run a fiber line or a T1 or T3 line- but you have to play by their rules - so it costs lots.

 

[Danke]

Probably too slow. But didn’t ham radio operators used to have a way to link to the Internet?

 

[rin67630]

I was thinking how in moving nearly everything else off grid, no longer renting and paying for all the services

Agree, but having a janitor to free my way to the road from snow is not bad...

I thought that one of the last things you would have to keep renting is access to the internet.

It depends on where you live. Here north of the 50 parallel you have weeks without any usable solar contribution.

Once I had a patch of land I could see myself doing away with internet to become almost totally isolated from the world, maybe instead relying on books from chosen authors, but while learning about all this stuff I feel it is invaluable and would be a great deprivation to give up and slow down progress towards maximum self sufficiency. Even if only using books though I would have to find out about them somehow. I doubt public libraries will have up to date information on permaculture and off grid living.

Being member of the library of any university is a treasure. You get access on books you never will find on the internet.
Most universities will let outsiders to purchase a membership for ridiculous fees.

 

[SeaGal]

Is there no bootstrapped open source way to access the internet though? Do we always have to be tied to line rental and such? The only ways I can think of not to pay would just be piggybacking from places that provide free wifi so that is not really a solution just offsetting the problem.

I am not clear what the 'problem' is that you are trying to solve.

If you want to be totally off grid in the UK and not "tied to line rental and such", then that is an option.

Public libraries, which are paid for from your council tax, not only provide books for you to read, but also provide free terminals connected to the Internet for you to use... thus freeing you from line rental and ISP fees.

 

[rodrick]

I find the internet way to valuable to get rid of to much information can be gained from it, that is the one thing that is going to my totally off grid homestead, the Starlink is the only exception

 

[Gueyog8a7]

Starlink ?

If you have cell signal- the cell provider …
If no cell signal - Starlink works great.

If you are close to a main internet trunk line- you can tap into that and run a fiber line or a T1 or T3 line- but you have to play by their rules - so it costs lots.

Starlink is renting from a company so no different. Just a different technology and company.

I am not clear what the 'problem' is that you are trying to solve.

If you want to be totally off grid in the UK and not "tied to line rental and such", then that is an option.

Public libraries, which are paid for from your council tax, not only provide books for you to read, but also provide free terminals connected to the Internet for you to use... thus freeing you from line rental and ISP fees.

What I am getting at is the idea of open source rather than just piggybacking off other peoples stuff. Like how you can self host your own websites by running a server from home rather than renting from a commercial provider and being subject to their terms and such. I am wondering if there is an equivalent to 'roll your own' internet access, even albeit at a heavily compromised rate as I image economy of scale would work against you. So not renting line from anyone and not surfing other company's access be it public or not. I am wondering what technology it takes for that and if using the proprietary telecommunication lines is the only way in.

 

[houseofancients]

Starlink is renting from a company so no different. Just a different technology and company.

What I am getting at is the idea of open source rather than just piggybacking off other peoples stuff. Like how you can self host your own websites by running a server from home rather than renting from a commercial provider and being subject to their terms and such. I am wondering if there is an equivalent to 'roll your own' internet access, even albeit at a heavily compromised rate as I image economy of scale would work against you.

You really haven't got a clue what the internet is do you ?

The internet is a huge interconnected global network, much like the power grid, but then on a much much bigger scale
To get on, you need to be connected to it, either by cable ( fibre, coax, network cable) or through a wireless device connecting to that cable

 

[Tomthumb62]

Starlink is renting from a company so no different. Just a different technology and company.

What I am getting at is the idea of open source rather than just piggybacking off other peoples stuff. Like how you can self host your own websites by running a server from home rather than renting from a commercial provider and being subject to their terms and such. I am wondering if there is an equivalent to 'roll your own' internet access, even albeit at a heavily compromised rate as I image economy of scale would work against you. So not renting line from anyone and not surfing other company's access be it public or not. I am wondering what technology it takes for that and if using the proprietary telecommunication lines is the only way in.

My vague recollection of the early days of the internet was the net was very bare bones. The WWW was not yet developed much. Everything was text based. Navigating required knowledge of Unix commands. Not user friendly. A mouse wasn’t used, just the keyboard. Oh and it was REALLY SLOW. I can’t recall what or how we paid for access. It was really cheap though.

So if you want Internet access like you’re used to- fast and you can use your mouse and use YouTube and not just black screen text sites requiring Unix text commands, then either pony up or use your local library.

The internet itself is free, except for places with a paywall.

ACCESS to the internet is made of very very expensive fiber lines and wireless towers that big companies like Sprint, AT&T, Comcast, etc have put in billions of dollars (some of it subsidized by the federal government and the companies profit off it, grrr). Keeping those lines working and protected from hackers costs money too.

So what you want is to install your own fiber but then you need to pay the company who owns the thing you’re connecting to.

Or just buy out Comcast. Then you’ll never pay rent to them again. Or heck, buy out all of them including Starlink.

 

[Gueyog8a7]

You really haven't got a clue what the internet is do you ?

The internet is a huge interconnected global network, much like the power grid, but then on a much much bigger scale
To get on, you need to be connected to it, either by cable ( fibre, coax, network cable) or through a wireless device connecting to that cable

Doubtful. From what I know it is a gel like substance which flows freely around 3 miles below the earth's surface.

 

[Gueyog8a7]

My vague recollection of the early days of the internet was the net was very bare bones. The WWW was not yet developed much. Everything was text based. Navigating required knowledge of Unix commands. Not user friendly. A mouse wasn’t used, just the keyboard. Oh and it was REALLY SLOW. I can’t recall what or how we paid for access. It was really cheap though.

So if you want Internet access like you’re used to- fast and you can use your mouse and use YouTube and not just black screen text sites requiring Unix text commands, then either pony up or use your local library.

The internet itself is free, except for places with a paywall.

ACCESS to the internet is made of very very expensive fiber lines and wireless towers that big companies like Sprint, AT&T, Comcast, etc have put in billions of dollars (some of it subsidized by the federal government and the companies profit off it, grrr). Keeping those lines working and protected from hackers costs money too.

So what you want is to install your own fiber but then you need to pay the company who owns the thing you’re connecting to.

Or just buy out Comcast. Then you’ll never pay rent to them again. Or heck, buy out all of them including Starlink.

You assume I want super fast internet and watch youtube and netflix and the bells and whistles? As I said I would accept a compromised version. Most of that high bandwitch stuff is brain rotting anyway. Did you look at the front page of youtube lately? Also I am using linux right now. 90% of what I do is research anyway so basic text access from a linux terminal browser would be fine.

I also began internet in the mid 90s on 28kbs dial up to start.

So I am wondering is any access going to be stealing access rather than legit as you would be just using the lines of those companies anyway? Like you have to tap into that either surreptitiously or legitimately. I am asking is there no way to communicate with the internet with your own equipment I think is a better way to put it. For example I can communicate with people across the world on the internet without actually having anything to do with the companies they are renting access from. Can you not adhoc your own access somehow to engage with the internet at large?

 

[Tomthumb62]

You assume I want super fast internet and watch youtube and netflix and that BS? As I said I would accept a compromised version. Most of that high bandwitch stuff is brain rotting anyway. Did you look at the front page of youtube lately? Also I am using linux right now. 90% of what I do is research anyway so basic text access from a linux terminal browser would be fine.

I also began internet in the mid 90s on 28kbs dial up to start.

That’s fine that you know Linux/Unix and would be happy with a simple version of the internet.

You still need access. Big companies make that possible.

That was the way with the power grid at first. The Rockefeller family made big bank by investing into copper and nickle and tin to produce the tens or hundreds of thousands of miles of wires to transfer electricity through the grid.

Solar or a fossil fuel generator can make the grid obsolete. What the grid offers (electricity) you can produce at home.

How ya gonna produce the information of the internet at home without access? I suppose you could build a 9999999999999999999999999 terabyte home server and just copy and paste the whole content of the internet onto your server and access it that way. But damn, that’s going to be a while at 28.8kbps, lol.

My point here is I like that you’re thinking outside of the box, but what you want isn’t currently possible without big bucks.

If the federal government were to buy out all the companies who currently own the fiber access to the Net and then allow the public to tap into the fiber lines for free, that would do it. Hell will probably freeze over before that happens in our capitalistic country.

 

[krby]

You can sort of roll your own, but eventually you're going to have to either pay for a peering arrange to the wider Internet, or pay someone else who has one. There have been been several successful "community ISP" non-profits and co-ips. These folks provide the last-mile connection to individual houses, but the community ISP has to have an uplink from another ISP, a telco, or someone that eventually has peering arrangements.

If you want to be more "DIY" there are projects like https://disaster.radio/ but they aren't generally connected to the Internet.

If you want to not have a wire, then sure, you can do last-mile wireless for your connection. But eventually, you're going to have to going to have to connect to someone who connects to someone...eventually leading to someone that has good peering connections to the major networks.

 

[Madcodger]

But eventually, you're going to have to going to have to connect to someone who connects to someone...eventually leading to someone that has good peering connections to the major networks.

This. In other words, you cannot just "plug in" to the internet from your home without signing up for some service. It's not like radio that's just available for the taking with the right equipment, or "open source" in the way you have Linux as an operating system. As others have noted, you could always go to the local library and use their computers, or even take a laptop or mobile device to a place with free wifi and an internet connection (perhaps a local fast food place, or the aforementioned library). But to sit at your house and have access, you're going to need to sign up with someone (and yes, almost certainly pay for it).

I live on an island in rural Maine and own a several-acres farm not far away, on the "mainland". With enough panels (and a generator for cloudy day stretches) I could generate all my own electricity. Radio is there for the taking if I'm willing to listen to ads (or the public radio pledge drives). Theoretically I could get some TV for free with a big enough antenna, mounted high enough. We have our own wells and septic systems, and with the right greenhouse setup, I could likely even grow all my own food (I don't do all these things, mind you, but I could). But what I can NOT do is create my own access to either the telephone network or the internet, and I'd bet the same is true for you. As they say, "no man is (truly) an island", at least not if they want to connect to others from the comfort of their living room recliner.

 

[G00SE]

So I am wondering is any access going to be stealing access rather than legit as you would be just using the lines of those companies anyway? Like you have to tap into that either surreptitiously or legitimately. I am asking is there no way to communicate with the internet with your own equipment I think is a better way to put it. For example I can communicate with people across the world on the internet without actually having anything to do with the companies they are renting access from. Can you not adhoc your own access somehow to engage with the internet at large?

There are devices that will allow you to utilize signal bouncing from local antenna whether it be 3g, 4g, or 5g. Whether you pay for it or “steal” it I guess is depending on which route you take.
Unfortunately, either way won’t absolve the necessity of piggybacking off large infrastructure
I have a starlink as I don’t consider it part of that same infrastructure, albeit very similar in function and payment design. I don’t have cell service where I am otherwise I would get one of their home routers as backup.
For strictly communication one could look at HAM radio, one can freely catch TV waves as well, but for actual search queries I’m afraid it won’t be easy to replicate in a similar regard

 

[hwy17]

There are some projects to develop new protocols for ad hoc interconnected networks over radio devices, sort of an off grid internet. But this would be more like a HAM radio network and not connected to the "internet" unless someone operated a bridge, whether free or as a paid service.

The internet itself is a commercially maintained product made up of hardware and software that needs to be actively maintained. That takes resources, and resources cost money, so I think it would always cost money to use it unless it was going to be funded by government subsidy (it already partially is).

 

[SeaGal]

I am asking is there no way to communicate with the internet with your own equipment I think is a better way to put it.

I'm probably having a blonde moment, but I still don't understand what you are trying to achieve.

I think what you are saying is like... can you make your own car then drive it to a far off town without using any roads

 

[grizzzman]

Probably too slow. But didn’t ham radio operators used to have a way to link to the Internet?

Yes they do but you need to be a member of the club that hosts it, The service is not free. unless times of emergency.

 

[chilly2]

Starlink is renting from a company so no different. Just a different technology and company.

What I am getting at is the idea of open source rather than just piggybacking off other peoples stuff. Like how you can self host your own websites by running a server from home rather than renting from a commercial provider and being subject to their terms and such. I am wondering if there is an equivalent to 'roll your own' internet access, even albeit at a heavily compromised rate as I image economy of scale would work against you. So not renting line from anyone and not surfing other company's access be it public or not. I am wondering what technology it takes for that and if using the proprietary telecommunication lines is the only way in.

I'm sure you know this, but let's suppose you have your own off grid LAN of however many devices. You might set up local DHCP, DNS, and other services on one or more hosts, and to leave your routing host has to connect to something. Regardless of the physical layer (dialup, ISDN, leased line, cell, satellite, or HAM radio) even if it's a Fidonet node / UUCP relay you'll need a peering arrangement with the next hop. ISPs deal with that naturally but set all the rules. If you get your own line you can negotiate to an extent based on who you're peering with.

There is really no other way.