Is such a thing as off grid internet possible?

[gotbeans]

Lora is by no means a comparison to internet as OP states it..
OP basically want to bake his cake and eat it too..

Those specific LoRa networks are, yea. Definitely "the closest thing that exists" to what he's wanting, as said.

True but also LoRa is the basically the realest answer to OP's title. The off grid internet does exist... and it sucks.

whoa hater! Hey we can go from parts of france all the way to poland with just community stuff sometimes!!! sending like 5 words of data and it only takes several minutes!
oh yea I guess that is pretty bad

Can't say I'd trust the government (ANY government) controlling the internet and its access. Bad things happen when you do that.

Not that big tech is much better... we've seen the damage they can do when they collude WITH the government...

I'd trust that over private company supplying it..
the best is community ran CO-OP projects (many such in the states at least)
regulated by government (ideally a government that helps it's people ? )
competition by private companies
keeps them fighting each other instead of just hammering the clients with fees etc

Do you trust Comcast more? Cause that's the kind of result you will get if you release the government's control.

100x worse than that. Comcast exists with what we get with government control
in north west arkansas we have 5000/5000mbps at&t, CO-OP ran ozark's Go 2000/2000mbps, and cox 1000/30mbps
now cox is running fiber lines here to compete. Of course all 3 aren't available in every specific place.
Anyway cox is more than double the price of the other 2.. ok not THAT bad but still pretty bad especially for slower speeds
now let's look at las vegas, it also has cox
They aren't running fiber anywhere except maybe backbone now. It's about 4 times the price, also the downtime is average 17.3 minutes (at least where my private servers are which is a good connection) and it is 1.7 in NWA. ?
but I've moved to at&t now so won't be able to watch it as the years go on

 

[houseofancients]

Those specific LoRa networks are, yea. Definitely "the closest thing that exists" to what he's wanting, as said.


whoa hater! Hey we can go from parts of france all the way to poland with just community stuff sometimes!!! sending like 5 words of data and it only takes several minutes!
oh yea I guess that is pretty bad


I'd trust that over private company supplying it..
the best is community ran CO-OP projects (many such in the states at least)
regulated by government (ideally a government that helps it's people ? )
competition by private companies
keeps them fighting each other instead of just hammering the clients with fees etc

Lora is ment for small messaging, and not for "downloading", scrolling or reading other things than iot messages...

 

[45North]

I had to google lora. Seems to be mostly for internet of things IoT - so mostly local.

 

[gotbeans]

Lora is ment for small messaging, and not for "downloading", scrolling or reading other things than iot messages...

I've worked with it about 10 years.. I'm well aware. Those are specific networks I linked.

I had to google lora. Seems to be mostly for internet of things IoT - so mostly local.

Range is well over 200km, what do you consider local?
Also those networks I linked traverse across many countries and many states.
That's why they're "the closest thing to what OP wants"
I fear you two aren't grasping the difference between LoRa and a network of LoRa
Like a fiber run is also local, if it's only 10ft/3meters long.

I think there is confusion about whether the OP wants "cost free Internet access" or "decentralized, DIY, or otherwise feels like off-grid Internet access". I read the original post as the latter.

You may be able to do last-mile Internet that feels less like "big telecom company running a cable to your property", but if you're accessing most of the content on the Internet, you're eventually depending on cables owned and maintained by big telecom companies and the complicated agreements between them.

So far, the LoRA suggestions feel to me like the closest thing the OP is asking for. But, my understanding is it isn't so much another set of traditional Internet connections but a bunch of last mile LoRA -> Internet gateways for things like sensors.

Yea he can rig it up to GET request the HTML from this site. It'd take like a week or even more per page though
Who knows maybe he's a millionaire and will up the network saturation so much it'll only take 1 day

 

[rin67630]

It is very slow, but it has massive range. Plenty for sending text type msgs etc

Dont forget: LoRa will not let you use more than 20% of the transmitting time.
So 20% of 120 Baud will not make a human very happy...

 

[gotbeans]

Dont forget: LoRa will not let you use more than 20% of the transmitting time.
So 20% of 120 Baud will not make a human very happy...

Hey man it's the best OP can get. He better enjoy it

 

[rin67630]

There i also a company 1NCE selling data-only SIM modules paid once for ~12$ which are valid 10 years worldwide on practically every network for a total of 1GB data.
You can send or receive ~250 Kilobytes a day.

Almost as much as a diskette in the 70ies...

 

[HowlerMonkey]

I used my iphone 5 as a hot spot for my gaming rig for years and zero complaints of warping but the latency is noticeably higher than fiber to my house.

 

[gotbeans]

Oh yea alternatively OP can just download wikipedia database https://dumps.wikimedia.org/
also use yt-dlp to archive youtube. If you archive all of will's channel and whatever other youtubers you can just watch them a few videos per day

You should have enough reading & viewing to last the rest of your days off grid

 

[rin67630]

Oh yea alternatively OP can just download wikipedia database https://dumps.wikimedia.org/
also use yt-dlp to archive youtube. If you archive all of will's channel and whatever other youtubers you can just watch them a few videos per day

You should have enough reading & viewing to last the rest of your days off grid

Kiwix is your friend. I have it on my smartphone. The full English Wikipedia highly compressed database is a 21 GB download.
There are light versions without pics available too. And much more than only Wikipedia...

 

[Gueyog8a7]

I think there is confusion about whether the OP wants "cost free Internet access" or "decentralized, DIY, or otherwise feels like off-grid Internet access". I read the original post as the latter.

Indeed. Nothing to do with "cheaping out" for using linux over windows as other poster put it. That is just an ignorant statement. I am in a financially better position in life than I have ever been. Not everything is about money. It is about the ethos of free and open source software.

 

[Hedges]

You assume I want super fast internet and watch youtube and netflix and the bells and whistles? As I said I would accept a compromised version. Most of that high bandwitch stuff is brain rotting anyway. Did you look at the front page of youtube lately? Also I am using linux right now. 90% of what I do is research anyway so basic text access from a linux terminal browser would be fine.

I also began internet in the mid 90s on 28kbs dial up to start.

I used to dial up at 110 baud.
Material was just text, so we didn't need much.

I can't effectively access the web with a Windows XP machine any more. The browser opens many processes, gigabytes of memory, before I can log it to email. Web pages burn CPU cycles. I can stop that by turning off Java, but then I can't even operate pull-down menus.

You can get on the internet with simple hardware and a skinny link, but you can't access many of the sites, which are now designed for the latest hardware and software. It could work as data link to other simple sites.

Some wealthy countries don't even have state-funded health care!

US (California) does.

But only for non-citizens who entered the country illegally.

There is talk about internet access being a right. We also have a program that provides free internet-enabled cell phones.

 

[Gueyog8a7]

I used to dial up at 110 baud.
Material was just text, so we didn't need much.

I can't effectively access the web with a Windows XP machine any more. The browser opens many processes, gigabytes of memory, before I can log it to email. Web pages burn CPU cycles. I can stop that by turning off Java, but then I can't even operate pull-down menus.

You can get on the internet with simple hardware and a skinny link, but you can't access many of the sites, which are now designed for the latest hardware and software. It could work as data link to other simple sites.



US (California) does.

But only for non-citizens who entered the country illegally.

There is talk about internet access being a right. We also have a program that provides free internet-enabled cell phones.

What is skinny link... it just means none broad band as dumb phones are to smartphones?

 

[Smeeg]

https://www.gridbase.net/

Not exactly the internet but closest thing I could think of

 

[SparkyGage]

Indeed. Nothing to do with "cheaping out" for using linux over windows as other poster put it. That is just an ignorant statement. I am in a financially better position in life than I have ever been. Not everything is about money. It is about the ethos of free and open source software.

Bravo.

Ok, I read through and have gotten an idea of what you are getting at.

My background affecting my perspective: I'm a 30+ year computer geek by trade. I'm in the world of "healthcare" for the last 20 years. My first exposure to the internet was on mainframes in the 80s in "university".

My short answer: Yes!..., and no....

"No", you can't without connecting to another network. But "yes" if become your own network.

So lets break it down:

1. "The Internet" is bunch of "networks" that network with each other.
2. ISP's are "providers" providing a wire or a signal to THEIR network.
   1. This access is subject to the terms and conditions of that specific provider.
   2. IF I've got ATT and I am ONLY communicating to other computers on the ATT network, I'm not using "The Internet", I'm just using their network.
3. So all these private networks and service providers make gateway agreements to the effect of "I'll pass your traffic if you pass mine." Who pays who is in the agreement as is what traffic limitations will apply. ATT makes a deal with Verizon and Comcast. Verizon makes a deal with Comcast and Rogers. Comcast makes a deal with Verizon and Rogers. Rogers traffic can reach ATT, and vice versa, without agreement because both have agreements with Verizon and Comcast. There are hundreds, if not thousands, world wide.
4. So, if I create a network (wires, radio, or light) and connect your network to mine, we've technically created "an internet" that we'll call "OUR Internet". If one or both of us is a gateway to the rest of "The Internet", then we are "On", or better said "Part Of" "THE Internet".

So, if I connect with other networks, and let my network function as a gateway, I am in a way "off grid" from a single ISP. If i don't connect to any of the resources of the networks I connect to, and merely use them as a transport, I am not dependent on any one of the commercial ISP's in a sense.

Two examples:

I had a LAN for 10+ years between my 3 offices in town connected with wireless bridges. These offices were more than 2km from each other. I only had internet of any kind at the main office, but the clinics on the other side of town had a 100Mb connection to the 50Mb connection I was paying for at the main office. There was no indication that clinics were "connected" to anyone that didn't really know and wasn't REALLY looking for it. At the time, the fastest service I could "buy" at that location was 1.5Mb T1. 90% of my traffic was "in house". Later when it was cheap enough, I got internet at a clinic and if "The Internet" went down at HQ, traffic now went to the clinic and out. I offsite backup to my other locations without any 3rd party, or "grid", involvement.

Some friends in a large PacificNorthWest city have an "off grid" WiFi network that blankets the city, mainly for gaming. They are able to access their home PCs from all over town and they can access the internet through any connection. Although they limit internet bandwidth to prevent abuse, they can still do most things from other nodes. (And yes, most of these guys run Linux). They also don't need "THE Internet" for a lot of basic things as they have their own DNS service scattered across the network, as well their own email, Mastadon and Matrix servers. Yes, to watch YouTube, they go to the internet, but to connect to the office from home they don't.

A 3rd and probably best example is ham radio (yes, you can send and receive email via ham radio).

Well thats just my opinion. YMMV Good Luck!

"There is no cloud. It's just someone else's computer."

 

[Coydon]

Indeed. Nothing to do with "cheaping out" for using linux over windows as other poster put it. That is just an ignorant statement.

Might want to take greater care with reading comprehension, bub. That comment generated agreement that no one here was using Linux in order to save the pennies. It also proposed you were seeking a 'better way' to connect, not trying to ditch monetary contributions.

 

[Gueyog8a7]

Bravo.

Ok, I read through and have gotten an idea of what you are getting at.

My background affecting my perspective: I'm a 30+ year computer geek by trade. I'm in the world of "healthcare" for the last 20 years. My first exposure to the internet was on mainframes in the 80s in "university".

My short answer: Yes!..., and no....

"No", you can't without connecting to another network. But "yes" if become your own network.

So lets break it down:

1. "The Internet" is bunch of "networks" that network with each other.
2. ISP's are "providers" providing a wire or a signal to THEIR network.
   1. This access is subject to the terms and conditions of that specific provider.
   2. IF I've got ATT and I am ONLY communicating to other computers on the ATT network, I'm not using "The Internet", I'm just using their network.
3. So all these private networks and service providers make gateway agreements to the effect of "I'll pass your traffic if you pass mine." Who pays who is in the agreement as is what traffic limitations will apply. ATT makes a deal with Verizon and Comcast. Verizon makes a deal with Comcast and Rogers. Comcast makes a deal with Verizon and Rogers. Rogers traffic can reach ATT, and vice versa, without agreement because both have agreements with Verizon and Comcast. There are hundreds, if not thousands, world wide.
4. So, if I create a network (wires, radio, or light) and connect your network to mine, we've technically created "an internet" that we'll call "OUR Internet". If one or both of us is a gateway to the rest of "The Internet", then we are "On", or better said "Part Of" "THE Internet".

So, if I connect with other networks, and let my network function as a gateway, I am in a way "off grid" from a single ISP. If i don't connect to any of the resources of the networks I connect to, and merely use them as a transport, I am not dependent on any one of the commercial ISP's in a sense.

Two examples:

I had a LAN for 10+ years between my 3 offices in town connected with wireless bridges. These offices were more than 2km from each other. I only had internet of any kind at the main office, but the clinics on the other side of town had a 100Mb connection to the 50Mb connection I was paying for at the main office. There was no indication that clinics were "connected" to anyone that didn't really know and wasn't REALLY looking for it. At the time, the fastest service I could "buy" at that location was 1.5Mb T1. 90% of my traffic was "in house". Later when it was cheap enough, I got internet at a clinic and if "The Internet" went down at HQ, traffic now went to the clinic and out. I offsite backup to my other locations without any 3rd party, or "grid", involvement.

Some friends in a large PacificNorthWest city have an "off grid" WiFi network that blankets the city, mainly for gaming. They are able to access their home PCs from all over town and they can access the internet through any connection. Although they limit internet bandwidth to prevent abuse, they can still do most things from other nodes. (And yes, most of these guys run Linux). They also don't need "THE Internet" for a lot of basic things as they have their own DNS service scattered across the network, as well their own email, Mastadon and Matrix servers. Yes, to watch YouTube, they go to the internet, but to connect to the office from home they don't.

A 3rd and probably best example is ham radio (yes, you can send and receive email via ham radio).

Well thats just my opinion. YMMV Good Luck!

"There is no cloud. It's just someone else's computer."

I think I get the idea that either you have off grid and no access to wider, for friends and stuff, or you pay and enjoy the benefits of the WWW. I did something with openvpn not long ago however I suppose that doesn't count here since we were still using the internet just had a private corner of it for a secure open source chat server.

It does raise interesting philosophical questions.

I have also been asking myself lately if I could live without internet at all. Adopting something like an amish way of life.

I think the other big impediment that would cause if living in a rural off grid setting is then you would only be reliant on local services. So no cutting edge solar technology and likely none at all. Am I ready to become a total luddite yet? Not sure. There could be the easy compromise as mentioned above of using public internet but I feel that kind of undermines the whole exercise.

I can envision a gradual winnowing of internet use and restricting to the bare essentials as more and more knowledge is gained of self sufficiency.

 

[SparkyGage]

I think I get the idea that either you have off grid and no access to wider, for friends and stuff, or you pay and enjoy the benefits of the WWW. I did something with openvpn not long ago however I suppose that doesn't count here since we were still using the internet just had a private corner of it for a secure open source chat server.

<snip>

I can envision a gradual winnowing of internet use and restricting to the bare essentials as more and more knowledge is gained of self sufficiency.

Ultimately, someone does pay for the wire or "link" - whether its effort, education, or finances. And it is a link - there is someone or something on the other end. If you want to talk to someone with a radio you built, then that someone also has to have a radio that they built or bought. If there is a relay in between, that's another cost in the link. And that's the real cost between you and who ever you want to connect to - the relays. Your ISP is one. The ISP of whoever you are connecting to is another. And all the relay's inbetween. If you do a trace route ping of the site/service/source you are connecting to, each "hop is a router and connection that "someone" is paying for. From me to DIYSolarForums.com is 17 hops: the first three are in my network, 4-11 are ATT, 12 is Verizon, 13-14 is Unitas Global, 15 is Zayo Bandwith, 16 is SingleHop, and finally 17 is DIYSolarForum.com. I tried it from another office in another city and this trip took 15 hops and only the last 5 matched my try from where I'm at today. (yes, I'm really this big of a geek. Even the plaque on my desk says so).

As for winnowing...
Cut out the video and audio streams and low bandwidth connections work just fine for me. Try a text only browser sometime when you are looking to just READ. If I'm just reading I can use a sub 1mb connection just fine. I would look at low cost cell service internet and filter it heavily.

At work we block ad networks, social media, PR0N, and many other websites if they become too distracting. 50+ people share a 50mb connection without issue. Legitimate work is low bandwidth.

At home I have a gig connection and the only reason was to save money - the faster service was cheaper than my old plan ("they" are trying to make me an addict - it may be working). Once my kids are out of the house, I'll probably get the lowest bandwidth tier and that will probably still exceed my need. The biggest use of bandwidth in my house hold is YouTube, Amazon Prime Video, Pluto, and Crunchy Roll (my step daughter's anime) and MotorTrend TV - in that order. (Ads would probably be in the top five if I didn't use network wide ad-blocking.)

Cheers.

 

[Hedges]

Buy the popular commodity.

I have Gbit fiber at one place, for less money than 18 Mbps Uverse at another.

 

[NC_hydro]

In conclusion the OP has no idea what they think they want nor how to get what they think they may or may not need possibly or maybe sometime or otherwise differently than they might get the unknown thing sometimes in times past….I think that cleared things up.