Save the planet, kill everyone on the road.

[Batvette]

https://www.npr.org/2023/01/11/1148483758/ntsb-heavy-electric-vehicles-safety-risks

I didnt know these had that much potential for risk.
Unintended consequences.

 

[Batvette]

What gets me is it takes energy to move mass... Article says the ford f150 lightning weighs 2-3,000 lbs more than its gasoline counterpart. Transferring the energy from a fuel source to a powerplant to the grid to the home/charger, then to the batteries then to the motor, will result in a lot of loss of efficiency. As opposed to the fuel combusting directly in the machine driving the wheels.
Not sure all is as it appears to be.

 

[MurphyGuy]

What gets me is it takes energy to move mass... Article says the ford f150 lightning weighs 2-3,000 lbs more than its gasoline counterpart. Transferring the energy from a fuel source to a powerplant to the grid to the home/charger, then to the batteries then to the motor, will result in a lot of loss of efficiency. As opposed to the fuel combusting directly in the machine driving the wheels.
Not sure all is as it appears to be.

You were doing okay with your original post, then you had to open your mouth and say something so ridiculously stupid its on the level of "contaminating the galaxy with our space probes."

Heavier vehicles are a problem, but its a problem we've been dealing with every year as people move away from small vehicles and into SUV's and pickup trucks.

There is no solution for the meeting of a semi-truck and a sub-compact 2 door with barely enough room for a bag of groceries.

 

[Batvette]

You were doing okay with your original post, then you had to open your mouth and say something so ridiculously stupid its on the level of "contaminating the galaxy with our space probes."

Heavier vehicles are a problem, but its a problem we've been dealing with every year as people move away from small vehicles and into SUV's and pickup trucks.

There is no solution for the meeting of a semi-truck and a sub-compact 2 door with barely enough room for a bag of groceries.

What percentage of collisions involve semi trucks? So by your logic should we all shift to vehicles that weigh 80,000 lbs?
If we want to reduce carbon footprint lighter vehicles are logical.
The point is an ICE vehicle getting into a collision with an EV counterpart is much higher risk of a lethal outcome. Statistically speaking this WILL lead to more highway deaths, not considering the outlier of the rare semi collisions.
Note the battery pack weight alone will not make the EV more survivable in a collision with a semi.
SUVs were gaining in popularity due to low gas prices, a situation that isnt permanent.

 

[MurphyGuy]

What percentage of collisions involve semi trucks? So by your logic should we all shift to vehicles that weigh 80,000 lbs?

If you think that was my logic, see a doctor.

If we want to reduce carbon footprint lighter vehicles are logical.

The problem with lighter vehicles is their capacity to do work like tow a boat or a trailer, or hold a family with a load of groceries, or even transport a television or a new patio set.
Pickup trucks and SUV's are here to stay.

The point is an ICE vehicle getting into a collision with an EV counterpart is much higher risk of a lethal outcome. Statistically speaking this WILL lead to more highway deaths, not considering the outlier of the rare semi collisions.

Vehicle fatalities have been falling since the 1970's as vehicles get safer and safer. I was wondering about it after your comment so I just looked it up. I see no reason that trend will not continue.

Note the battery pack weight alone will not make the EV more survivable in a collision with a semi.

When it comes to very large vehicles, I think bumper height is a bigger concern than the actual impact. But I was thinking about a 4wd pickup truck against a Ford Focus, not so much a semi truck in that instance. There has never been much of anything we can do about that other than more driver safety stuff to mitigate the g-forces.
There are two kinds of automobile crashes.. well.. we can put them into two categories.. 1) G-force injuries and 2) Object penetration.

G force injuries are just that.. the forces your body is subjected to from the sudden stop. These are mostly mitigated today with seat belts, air bags, and car bodies designed to crumple to absorb the energy.

Then there are the physical impacts of a piece of something coming through your door or your window. You can hit something at just 15 miles per hour and easily walk away, but if that 15 miles per hour involves a fence pole coming through your windshield and going through your face and out the back of your head, then you're dead. And no amount of seat belt restraint or air bag is going to stop that.

This is just a progression of technology.. We move forward, figure out what we need to do better, correct, then take another step forward.

Cars didn't even have seat belts back in the 60's.. and air bags didn't become popular until much later. Now we even have air bags above our heads, on the sides, and I think some seats even have them in the head rest or something.

Its a process.

SUVs were gaining in popularity due to low gas prices, a situation that isnt permanent.

Once you go SUV, you never go back..

 

[D71]

Simple physics when a 450,000 pound locomotive hits a transfer truck 80,000 pounds which is blocking the tracks than the locomotive almost always wins.

i have been curious about the tires for these heavy weight EV…. At some point ppl will put regular passenger rated tires on them…. Oppps.

 

[Batvette]

"This is just a progression of technology.. We move forward, figure out what we need to do better, correct, then take another step forward."

Bullshit. In the catagory of highway safety, adding 2,000 lbs to cars is absolutely NOT a progression, nothing that can be corrected, and is going to kill a lot more people.

 

[MurphyGuy]

"This is just a progression of technology.. We move forward, figure out what we need to do better, correct, then take another step forward."

Bullshit. In the catagory of highway safety, adding 2,000 lbs to cars is absolutely NOT a progression, nothing that can be corrected, and is going to kill a lot more people.

Says the guy who's an engineer.. Oh wait.. that's not you, that's me.

Have you been to TRW's impact science and testing facility? I have.. spent a whole week there because my factory helped process the anchors and airbag components that save your sorry ass when you decide that texting is more important than paying attention to the road.

So lets try this another way genius.. Why? Why would adding more weight to a car result in a higher death rate? What is the functional mechanism which would cause that higher death rate? What is the difference between a 2000 lb car running into a solid concrete wall and a 4000 lb car running into a solid concrete wall?

What is the mechanical difference between a 2000 lb car hitting a 10,000 lb truck or a 10,000 lb truck hitting a 10,000 lb truck?

 

[42OhmsPA]

"This is just a progression of technology.. We move forward, figure out what we need to do better, correct, then take another step forward."

It absolutely is, agree with @MurphyGuy.
Do you have any idea the kind of the troubleshooting and problem solving that goes into automotive manufacturing processes? How about quality processes that make sure everything meets spec? I've been working in automotive manufacturing for just over a decade, hands on assembly work to upper management ...

Bullshit. In the catagory of highway safety, adding 2,000 lbs to cars is absolutely NOT a progression, nothing that can be corrected, and is going to kill a lot more people.

What? How is improving efficiency not a progression?
How is it going to kill a lot more people? Cars are getting safer and safer all the time, have you every had your anti lock brakes activate on ice and had to stop on ice or abruptly without them?

If people want to be idiots (or have fun ?) in vehicles they are going to do it regardless what they are driving... The weight doesn't matter.

 

[teal95]

It's not just EVs either. All vehicles have become pigs. 65/6 Mustangs were ~2500 lbs. Early fox bodies were right around 3000. By the SN95 they were close to 3500. Most now are over 4k.

 

[Batvette]

It absolutely is, agree with @MurphyGuy.
Do you have any idea the kind of the troubleshooting and problem solving that goes into automotive manufacturing processes? How about quality processes that make sure everything meets spec? I've been working in automotive manufacturing for just over a decade, hands on assembly work to upper management ...

What? How is improving efficiency not a progression?
How is it going to kill a lot more people? Cars are getting safer and safer all the time, have you every had your anti lock brakes activate on ice and had to stop on ice or abruptly without them?

If people want to be idiots (or have fun ?) in vehicles they are going to do it regardless what they are driving... The weight doesn't matter.

Weight doesnt matter.
Are you serious or just trolling me. A car that outweighs yours by 2000 lbs will kill you. The negative Gs turn your internal organs to mush.
The article directly quotes the NTSB head.

"NTSB head warns of risks posed by heavy electric vehicles colliding with lighter cars"

I guess she just woke up and decided to give a press conference for a prank.

Ever hear of Isaac Newton?

 

[Batvette]

Says the guy who's an engineer.. Oh wait.. that's not you, that's me.

Have you been to TRW's impact science and testing facility? I have.. spent a whole week there because my factory helped process the anchors and airbag components that save your sorry ass when you decide that texting is more important than paying attention to the road.

So lets try this another way genius.. Why? Why would adding more weight to a car result in a higher death rate? What is the functional mechanism which would cause that higher death rate? What is the difference between a 2000 lb car running into a solid concrete wall and a 4000 lb car running into a solid concrete wall?

What is the mechanical difference between a 2000 lb car hitting a 10,000 lb truck or a 10,000 lb truck hitting a 10,000 lb truck?

I should have expected this intellectual dishonesty from a cockmonger like you. Cars against concrete?

FUCK YOU.

The danger is to occupants of the car the EV hits, not to the EVs occupants. You know this of course but youre just here to troll.
Eat my shorts you insignificant fuckstick.

So I guess youre saying this government official is completely full of shit right? Her press conference was made up lies right? A conspiracy against EVs, is that it? Oh but you know better, right?

 

[Batvette]

Heres the insurance institute on highway safety. The authority on the issue.

As heavy EVs proliferate, their weight may be a drag on safety

Electric vehicles are just as safe as other vehicles for their occupants, but unless we take action their weight will put other road users at risk.

www.iihs.org

"As heavy EVs proliferate, their weight may be a drag on safety
Electric vehicles are just as safe as other vehicles for their occupants, but unless we take action their weight will put other road users at risk."

STFU.

 

[Batvette]

According to a key study published by Oxford called "Pounds That Kill," when the other vehicle involved in a crash is 1,000 pounds heavier, the likelihood of dying in that crash increases by 47%.

 

[42OhmsPA]

Weight doesnt matter.
Are you serious or just trolling me. A car that outweighs yours by 2000 lbs will kill you. The negative Gs turn your internal organs to mush.
The article directly quotes the NTSB head.

Only if there is an accident. Ever hear of airbags, seat belts, crush zones, crash test dummies? The point I'm trying to make, it's not the heavier cars it's the moronic drivers behind the wheel...

"NTSB head warns of risks posed by heavy electric vehicles colliding with lighter cars"

I guess she just woke up and decided to give a press conference for a prank.

I'm so sick of warning and risks fear tactics buzz word bull crap and it's way to early for me to go there. Of course there's a risk that people should be aware of.

Ever hear of Isaac Newton?

Lol. Yea I know all about Newton and no I'm not trolling you.

 

[MurphyGuy]

I should have expected this intellectual dishonesty from a cockmonger like you. Cars against concrete?

FUCK YOU.

SNAP
Maybe some medication would help? Professional counseling?

The danger is to occupants of the car the EV hits, not to the EVs occupants. You know this of course but youre just here to troll.
Eat my shorts you insignificant fuckstick.

The heavier weight of an EV does come with some increased risks to other vehicles, but only in a very small set of circumstances where the other vehicle is prevented from physically moving away from the impact point. For example, when traffic is stopped and the last car in the line gets rear ended by someone.. the last car in the line is prevented from moving forward as a result of the impact because there are more cars in front of it.

A better way to visualize this: Pretend CarA is wood board and CarB is a hammer. If you hold the board with your hand and try to pound the nail in, what happens? The board bounces around because its difficult for your hand to hold the board still. But if you put the board on a table that doesn't move, then the board can't go anywhere and the hammer pushes the nail in further.

The concept is exactly the same in traffic. If the car being impacted is able to move upon impact, then it is the speed of the other vehicle that accounts for most of the forces at play. Only when the car being impacted is not able to move an adequate distance, does the weight of the other vehicle make a big difference.

It wouldn't matter if you use a 2 pound hammer on the nail or a 5 pound hammer.. if you're holding the board with your hand, the nail will just move out of the way upon impact.

Yes, there is a slight increase in the G-forces, but they are a minor concern as compared to other variables.

So I guess youre saying this government official is completely full of shit right? Her press conference was made up lies right? A conspiracy against EVs, is that it? Oh but you know better, right?

Oh wait... wait.. Oh man.. I'm laughing so hard I almost spit my coffee out.

The government lied about covid 19, the government lied about 911, lied about the election, lied about the moon landings, but when some random obscure administrator says EV's are going to kill more people, they're all of a sudden telling the truth?

You're so transparent they should study you to see how to improve the clarity of glass..

The increased weight of EV's probably will result in more deaths.. but its an insignificant number in the statistical picture. The real danger is from the vastly increased performance, which I suspect will be intentionally attenuated in the future at some point. We can't have the idiot population, who are so stupid they think we could be spreading life thru the galaxy with our space probes, getting behind the wheel of a rocket car on our public roads.
It is likely that the government will mandate acceleration limits on the vehicles in some way.


You should never post, argue, or discuss anything related to science and the words Issac Newton should never leave your lips.

There are 1.7 million EV's on the road today... that's a significant statistical sample. If you wanted to know if they pose an increased danger, there should be statistics available showing if there are any issues with the outcomes of those collisions.

Homendy is absolutely correct about the increased performance of the EV's causing more deaths, but the increased weight is a minor issue in comparison.

In fact, there's some counter intuitive situations where the increased weight of the EV might actually save the life of the EV driver. Situations where the EV hits a telephone pole or a tree. Where as lighter vehicles will come to a near instantaneous stop, a heavier vehicle might have enough mass to snap the pole and continue, which would result in far lower G-forces.

And one final note:
If you really think you're in danger because a heavy EV might hit you, there's a solution for that.. Wait for it.. Wait for it...

Go buy an EV..

 

[Checkthisout]

Sorry but Cockmonger got me. ??????

I'm dead. ??

 

[Checkthisout]

Kind of a rule of thumb is that EVs use 30% of the fuel of their gasser counterparts.

The added weight doesn't mean much.

If you want to make things fair in a crash just fill your gas vehicles trunk or bed up with sand. When you hit an EV you can use the sand to put the fire out.

 

[D71]

It absolutely is, agree with @MurphyGuy.
Do you have any idea the kind of the troubleshooting and problem solving that goes into automotive manufacturing processes? How about quality processes that make sure everything meets spec? I've been working in automotive manufacturing for just over a decade, hands on assembly work to upper management ...

What? How is improving efficiency not a progression?
How is it going to kill a lot more people? Cars are getting safer and safer all the time, have you every had your anti lock brakes activate on ice and had to stop on ice or abruptly without them?

If people want to be idiots (or have fun ?) in vehicles they are going to do it regardless what they are driving... The weight doesn't matter.

I get what you are saying but… always a “but”

Advancements can also end up like ocean gate - Titan submarine failure.
Sometimes we have to abandon things until future tech is developed…. Some things like ocean gate carbon fiber should have been avoided …. The Ocean Gate owner sounds like a dumb ass and gives engineering a bad name. Now it is coming out the carbon fiber components were out of date. Had previous problems - repaired. Hindsight is almost always 20/20 for failures…. Right? ???
The Flying Wing B2 bomber is an example… the first version needed help. It had to wait. I think Chinese Air Force has a copy cat version of B2 now. Most of the advancements in automotive came from aviation (abs-turbo-super charger) - space program. With exception of the EV …aircraft which are lot more sensitive to weight for obvious reasons - short ranges. The C5 heavy transport burned off fuel weight during a mission and an EV aircraft maintains the constant weight although power-charge is dropping from battrries. Weight matters especially in aviation.

the ev automobile when significantly heavier will do considerable more damage to a light vehicle…. In a crash… Just simple physics. I posted this earlier about 450,000 pound locomotive + add in weight of another locomotive that behind lead and the train car consist will add up - trains destroy most anything set on the rails in front of them. Seen it time and time again. 18 wheeler truck driver pulls out blocks track and locomotive ends up with truck driver poo all over it. Not the king of the road where the rails cross it. Seen the Locomotive rail view camera recorded footage… time and time again same basic results. Flukes do happen.

A car having a high weight makes other cars less safe when in traffic accident but depends on the hit - speed - angles and other factors. Think our bumpers are still only rated 5 mile an hour for impact?. I think it was GM - Cadillac - Chevy that advertised heavy cars are safer back around 1960’-1970’s but the extra weight killed fuel mileage. I remember an advertisement how the higher weight - helped car hold the road. ?….never mind the skinny 14” tires…and sloppy suspensions. ?

I think iEv are heavy due to batteries as biggest weight factor. That is other reason search is on for lightweight batteries to extend range - reduce weight. . Same for EV aviation wanting lightweight batteries extend range - reduce weight. They do have very high hp electric motors in some EV Auto. I have to wonder how much the range suffers. You know ppl are going to stomp on them - that tesla is crazy fast. Ever think the high hp motors in ev take around ~700-~745 watts per hp? What if motor HP was reduced? Would as many batteries be required? I think Tesla was made extra stout for power to get show boat bragging rights.… over ICE acceleration.

To my knowledge the EV require special higher weight rated tires. The tires are stated not to last long. The regen braking probably cuts down on worn brake pads but wears on tires. I have not seen anyone describe if that is true or not with brake pads - wear. Have seen tires wear out fast. I have read the regen braking on EV cause problems with VW when on snow-icy roads. I have seen videos of Chinese BYD having lots of unreported problems fires - air bags and so on. I can understand how and why china would suppress byd failures. I have read Chevy bought a battery software from an Israeli company that can monitor batteries and help prevent thermal run away. Article did not go into great detail for description about this battery - vehicle saving software. I do know that some EV manufacturers are not honest when providing range… turn on ac and it can drop 20 miles or more from one youtube shown video …. That is from overall range but it wasn’t clear what happens if ac is left on all the time.? Is it just 20 miles lost for that accessory ?

In the 1970s gas wars the new little imported honda civics were excellent at getting gas mileage but would wad up like a smashed beer can in an accident. The little cars went for well over list price. I think gas topped $1 a gallon and ppl were saying it was end of the World. ?? Our economy was in the shitter the space program and vietnam cost us a ton of money then along came jimmy carter.. damn
Now it seems like Biden has tried to copy Carter’s economic plans. Biden has always been a liar, plagiarizer, and basically a shitty person since 1970’s.

btw drove a honda s2000 and did not like to stare at bumpers in traffic. The S2000 were at head height on most trucks and some suv bumpers. I did not buy one. Small car owners get murdered….by big vehicles…. the light weight vehicle occupants usually don’t walk away when hit by larger vehicles. Seems like long time ago but the Jeep Grand Cherokee was once preferred family vehicle - big heavy and better survival rate in crash with lighter vehicles.

For an ICE to go after big fuel savings they have to go after being lightweight. Most ICE vehicles have anemic gas engines. Hybrid vehicles obviously have extra weight and dual maintenance cost but return good rating for mpg. Toyota seems to prefer them - hybrid.

I think we will see some ugly issues emerge from EV like ppl getting shocked to death from the inverters. I read some EV can fry - electrocute you - why firemen handle them with hv gloves on. Time will tell. As minimum will see ground faults show up like we had on locomotive HV electrical systems. The intermittent problems were very hard to figure out. Hyundai and few others are tripping on the 12volt battery problem not recharging properly…. I like the Ioniq 5. The 12 volt battery going dead is a major problem…. That have not seen repaired….other EV charging 12 volt batteries are having troubles too. The change over from horse buggy to cars was around 10 years. Done. Horse steaks anyone?


I doubt EV like tesla were maximized get the longest range. Show boat…. Garage harley

 

[Batvette]

The government lied about covid 19, the government lied about 911, lied about the election, lied about the moon landings, but when some random obscure administrator says EV's are going to kill more people, they're all of a sudden telling the truth?

Other than the election Ive never taken any of those positions. As usual your replies are filled with lies and inaccuracies you present as "expert" analysis.

The biggest danger EVs pose is in head on collisions. The danger is real and the govt and experts at institutions like the IIHS are rightly sounding the alarms on this. People swing the EVs like a morality club announcing to the world that theyre saving the planet but can no longer ignore theyre putting others' lives at risk the same way lifted 4x4 truck drivers do.
And no, the solution isnt everyone driving lifted 4x4s or 9,000 lb EV hummers.