Schneider xw pro 6848 not powering up with eg4 lithium battery

[Mahendra Gomanie]

What happened when you externally precharged? And what did you use (what resistance) to precharge?

I did not externally precharge.
As i mentioned i dont think its a.precharge issue as i previously stated.this was a.turn off and on senario.
Icdont think the caps were discharge .
Breakers.flips easily bms simy went to fault/protect mode

 

[GXMnow]

I did not externally precharge.
As i mentioned i dont think its a.precharge issue as i previously stated.this was a.turn off and on senario.
Icdont think the caps were discharge .
Breakers.flips easily bms simy went to fault/protect mode

Can you ty doing a pre charge with a resistor or light bulb and see if that will get it turned on?

 

[Purgatory]

Can you send a picture of your battery to me? Just want to verify which one you have - we have different manufacturers, different BMS, etc on a few of our models so if you are ALSO having an issue with a different model that's likely a completely unrelated issue.

I can get you a better picture tomorrow if you need me to. This is the only one on my phone. Can get you an invoice number as well if that helps. I think the order number was #SS-#14383 order date February 6, 2022, delivered Feb 11

 

[Purgatory]

What happened when you externally precharged? And what did you use (what resistance) to precharge?

According to SS tech support “it has a precharge resistor in the batteries to handle inrush current”

 

[GXMnow]

According to SS tech support “it has a precharge resistor in the batteries to handle inrush current”

Yes, we understand the battery is designed with a built in pre charge system, but we are thinking that something is not working properly, and are trying to diagnose the issue. Do you have a way you can try doing your own pre charge external to the battery? If that will get the inverter to power up, and you can put some load on it, then we will know it is a problem with the pre charge. The idea of having a pre charge circuit built into the battery is a great idea, but if it is not charging up enough before it closes the main switch, it might still be allowing too much inrush. If that is the case, then EG4 needs to fix it.

I will also ask you the same question I asked Koldsimer. Do you have a disconnect switch between the battery and the inverter? If so, do you have that on before you turn on the breaker on the battery? For the internal pre-charge system in the battery to work properly, the output terminals of the battery need to be connected through to the inverter before the switch on the battery is turned on. If this is how you are doing it, and it is still shutting down when trying to start, then my guess is the pre-charge is either not putting out enough current, or it is not waiting long enough before it is closing it's high current switch.

Watching the video that Richard did on Koldsimer's batteries with the Schneider inverter, it was pretty obvious the pre-charge was working fine with just the inverter directly connected. But if he also has a pair of big solar charge controllers, could that be pushing it over the edge?

All of our DIY battery systems are different. And each system will have a specific turn on sequence. My system now has 3 BMS units and cut off switches. I need to be very careful when I power up from cold to ensue all the voltages are right before I close a switch. It took me 2 days to get the state of charge matched between all three banks before they could connect without tripping a BMS shut down or blowing a fuse. And then I need to manually pre charge my Schneider XW-Pro inverter before I can close my battery cut off switches.

I agree, you bought a battery that should handle the pre-charge for you, and they need to make good on that. But by testing it in a few different setups, we may be able get to the bottom of why it isn't working for you now. Then Richard and Signature Solar can help you out and prevent others from having an issue in the future.

 

[Purgatory]

Yes, we understand the battery is designed with a built in pre charge system, but we are thinking that something is not working properly, and are trying to diagnose the issue. Do you have a way you can try doing your own pre charge external to the battery? If that will get the inverter to power up, and you can put some load on it, then we will know it is a problem with the pre charge. The idea of having a pre charge circuit built into the battery is a great idea, but if it is not charging up enough before it closes the main switch, it might still be allowing too much inrush. If that is the case, then EG4 needs to fix it.

I will also ask you the same question I asked Koldsimer. Do you have a disconnect switch between the battery and the inverter? If so, do you have that on before you turn on the breaker on the battery? For the internal pre-charge system in the battery to work properly, the output terminals of the battery need to be connected through to the inverter before the switch on the battery is turned on. If this is how you are doing it, and it is still shutting down when trying to start, then my guess is the pre-charge is either not putting out enough current, or it is not waiting long enough before it is closing it's high current switch.

Watching the video that Richard did on Koldsimer's batteries with the Schneider inverter, it was pretty obvious the pre-charge was working fine with just the inverter directly connected. But if he also has a pair of big solar charge controllers, could that be pushing it over the edge?

All of our DIY battery systems are different. And each system will have a specific turn on sequence. My system now has 3 BMS units and cut off switches. I need to be very careful when I power up from cold to ensue all the voltages are right before I close a switch. It took me 2 days to get the state of charge matched between all three banks before they could connect without tripping a BMS shut down or blowing a fuse. And then I need to manually pre charge my Schneider XW-Pro inverter before I can close my battery cut off switches.

I agree, you bought a battery that should handle the pre-charge for you, and they need to make good on that. But by testing it in a few different setups, we may be able get to the bottom of why it isn't working for you now. Then Richard and Signature Solar can help you out and prevent others from having an issue in the future.

Sorry Gary I should have gone back and found the post, I was referencing the pre charge system because some have questioned if the 12v version has one. As for a preload test this is what I used

NTE Electronics 25W030 Cermet Wire Wound Resistor, 5% Tolerance, Axial Lead, 25W, Flameproof, 30 Ohm Resistance​

yes I have a disconnect switch, and I made sure to have it open prior to turning the battery on. is it Possible I have chosen the wrong resistor? If I need to do more testing I can but it won’t be able to for a couple weeks. I’m loaded out in my cargo bay for our trip and don’t want to unload to lug 100lb battery in and out lol.

 

[Koldsimer]

Yes, we understand the battery is designed with a built in pre charge system, but we are thinking that something is not working properly, and are trying to diagnose the issue. Do you have a way you can try doing your own pre charge external to the battery? If that will get the inverter to power up, and you can put some load on it, then we will know it is a problem with the pre charge. The idea of having a pre charge circuit built into the battery is a great idea, but if it is not charging up enough before it closes the main switch, it might still be allowing too much inrush. If that is the case, then EG4 needs to fix it.

Agreed. As you and many others have stated, the problem is bms/pre-charge resistor related.

I will also ask you the same question I asked Koldsimer. Do you have a disconnect switch between the battery and the inverter? If so, do you have that on before you turn on the breaker on the battery? For the internal pre-charge system in the battery to work properly, the output terminals of the battery need to be connected through to the inverter before the switch on the battery is turned on. If this is how you are doing it, and it is still shutting down when trying to start, then my guess is the pre-charge is either not putting out enough current, or it is not waiting long enough before it is closing it's high current switch.

I have a 250a main breaker between the battery and the inverter. I also have breakers on both of my midnite classics on both the input and the output side. I have tried powering up under every scenario possible. Breakers open, breakers closed, battery on first, battery on last, one battery, two batteries, all four batteries, etc.. Literally, every scenario possible yields the same result with the lifepower batteries. All other batteries work perfectly under any of the above scenarios.

Watching the video that Richard did on Koldsimer's batteries with the Schneider inverter, it was pretty obvious the pre-charge was working fine with just the inverter directly connected. But if he also has a pair of big solar charge controllers, could that be pushing it over the edge?

Possibly. I agree that it's unreasonable for SS to test every inverter with every possible scc or other accessory hooked up but a different testing method may have yielded better results.

All of our DIY battery systems are different. And each system will have a specific turn on sequence. My system now has 3 BMS units and cut off switches. I need to be very careful when I power up from cold to ensue all the voltages are right before I close a switch. It took me 2 days to get the state of charge matched between all three banks before they could connect without tripping a BMS shut down or blowing a fuse. And then I need to manually pre charge my Schneider XW-Pro inverter before I can close my battery cut off switches.

Another reason i was pissed when they tried to give me "open box" batteries or whatever they want to call them. I'm sure they would have all been at a different soc and voltage which would have caused headaches for me to get them all matched before installation and commissioning. Of course they don't care about details like that so...

I agree, you bought a battery that should handle the pre-charge for you, and they need to make good on that. But by testing it in a few different setups, we may be able get to the bottom of why it isn't working for you now. Then Richard and Signature Solar can help you out and prevent others from having an issue in the future.

Last Wednesday, after spending another two hours on the phone with Richard looking into my bms and hearing that they needed to consult the engineering dept., i came to the conclusion that they have very little idea what's going on. I heard the same thing from Matt over two months ago- we need to talk to engineering to figure this out. The fact that we made zero changes to bms settings or pre-charge timing tells me that Signature solar has no competent Electrical Engineers on staff and they have no idea how to fix this issue.

Potential fixes have been offered on this forum by probably half a dozen competent people- @Hedges @SpongeboB Sinewave @Quattrohead @Mr-Sandman @robby @Horsefly @MrM1 @RCinFLA and that's just off the top of my head- Sorry if i forgot anyone! But SS refuses to even try any of their suggestions.

In the end, i got batteries that work as promised. That's all i wanted. SS can act like they did something great by giving me "upgraded batteries" but it seems to me they simply finally made good on their promise to deliver batteries that work with my equipment.

I've been hesitant to respond to this thread any longer because honestly, i just want this to go away. It's been a nightmare. I've spent well over 100 hours trying to get my "plug ang play" batteries to work missing multiple days of work in the process. I hope nobody else has to go through anything like this and that's why i chose to respond today.

 

[GXMnow]

Thanks for the detailed reply Koldsimer. This information should help Signature Solar to setup a more elaborate test bed to see if they can track down the problem an come up with improvements so others don't have to deal with the issue you had.

From what I am seeing, Signature Solar is a reseller, they did not design or build these battery modules. But as the importer and sales rep, they are the ones who are standing behind it. Back over 20 years ago, I was a reseller for some gear when I owned my own company back near Chicago, IL. It was a great position when everything worked great, but when new equipment that I sold did not function to the customer's satisfaction, it can be a frustrating position. At least in my case, I was only reselling gear that was made in the USA. I never had to deal with a product engineered in China. I doubt I could still be competitive in the market these days without dealing with China.

As end users, we don't want to be the beta testers, but it does end up happening from time to time. Even if something is engineered locally, they might not have foreseen all of the ways it will be used. In my current job, we still run into this from time to time. Trying to tie together equipment from different manufacturers can sometimes lead to compatibility issues no one ever expected.

I know you feel you got the short end of the stick here, but just imagine where you would be if you just bought the batteries off of Ali Express or something, and could not make I work? It may have taken a lot longer than you wanted, but Richard and Signature Solar did end up getting you a new set of battery modules that are working. Hopefully they learned from this and will be even better at the product support side, and they can get the builder in China to improve the product and reduce the issues.

 

[Koldsimer]

Thanks for the detailed reply Koldsimer. This information should help Signature Solar to setup a more elaborate test bed to see if they can track down the problem an come up with improvements so others don't have to deal with the issue you had.

No problem Gary. To be honest Signature has had this information for months. I tried every way under the sun to get the batteries to work in the first week of ownership way back in dec 21. They have had the perfect opportunity to send an independent, qualified tech or a rep from their company to my site less than 45 minutes away from their office, but they chose not to. I invited them out multiple times and told them i'd sign waivers, whatever they wanted. They just wouldn't do it. My guess is they thought i was doing something wrong and it wasn't worth their time.

From what I am seeing, Signature Solar is a reseller, they did not design or build these battery modules. But as the importer and sales rep, they are the ones who are standing behind it. Back over 20 years ago, I was a reseller for some gear when I owned my own company back near Chicago, IL. It was a great position when everything worked great, but when new equipment that I sold did not function to the customer's satisfaction, it can be a frustrating position. At least in my case, I was only reselling gear that was made in the USA. I never had to deal with a product engineered in China. I doubt I could still be competitive in the market these days without dealing with China.

As end users, we don't want to be the beta testers, but it does end up happening from time to time. Even if something is engineered locally, they might not have foreseen all of the ways it will be used. In my current job, we still run into this from time to time. Trying to tie together equipment from different manufacturers can sometimes lead to compatibility issues no one ever expected.

I know you feel you got the short end of the stick here, but just imagine where you would be if you just bought the batteries off of Ali Express or something, and could not make I work? It may have taken a lot longer than you wanted, but Richard and Signature Solar did end up getting you a new set of battery modules that are working. Hopefully they learned from this and will be even better at the product support side, and they can get the builder in China to improve the product and reduce the issues.

I agree and I appreciate that i now have batteries that work. Richard was helpful and he's an asset to the company. It's what it took to get here and all the times Signature shot themselves in the foot to make it happen. If Richard or anyone wants to contest this claim, ill point out specific times they dropped the ball.

And by the way, plenty of users are still having the same issue i experienced and Signature is no closer to figuring it out. They literally made zero changes in my bms after two months of consulting with themselves about what needed to be done. They passed on a golden opportunity to solve this issue in this application and could have helped all the others with this same problem.

 

[GXMnow]

Sorry Gary I should have gone back and found the post, I was referencing the pre charge system because some have questioned if the 12v version has one. As for a preload test this is what I used

NTE Electronics 25W030 Cermet Wire Wound Resistor, 5% Tolerance, Axial Lead, 25W, Flameproof, 30 Ohm Resistance​

yes I have a disconnect switch, and I made sure to have it open prior to turning the battery on. is it Possible I have chosen the wrong resistor? If I need to do more testing I can but it won’t be able to for a couple weeks. I’m loaded out in my cargo bay for our trip and don’t want to unload to lug 100lb battery in and out lol.

Purgatory,

30 ohms should provide an initial current of about 0.4 to 0.5 amps. That is only 6 watts on a 12 volt system, so it will only get a little warm, it is well under the 25 watt rating. But it also might not be quite enough current to "power up" the inverter into standby mode. Do you have more than one of them? Maybe 2 or 3 of them in parallel could give it enough pre-charge current. My system is 48 volts, and I use an 8 ohm resistor. That gives an initial current of at least 6 amps, over 250 watts. For a 12 volt system, I thing you would want about 6 ohms or less to provide at least 2 amps of inrush to charge up the capacitors and get the system into standby. On 12 volt systems, I really like using 55 watt halogen fog light bulbs. The cold filament in the bulb pulls about 8 amps when you first connect it. It lights up fairly bright, and fades out as the caps charge up. Once the bulb is dim, then close the disconnect switch.

You wrote "yes I have a disconnect switch, and I made sure to have it open prior to turning the battery on". This might actually be the main problem. Have you tried turning on your disconnect switch BEFORE turning on the breaker on the battery? I know this does not seem right, but it is a key to how the built in pre-charge in the battery can do it's job. When the battery breaker is turned on, it supplies a limited current to charge up capacitors in your load. Basically just like using our resistor or light bulb. If your disconnect is open, the caps in the inverter are not being charged up. I don't know how the EG4 battery ends the "Pre-charge" time. It could be a straight timer, or it could look at the voltage on the output terminals. Either way, if the inverter and/or charge controllers are not connected when the battery is turned on, the pre-charge is likely ending, and closing the direct battery path to the output terminals. So you now have a high current path when the external disconnects are closed. The pre-charge circuit in the battery module is no longer able to do anything. You close to switch to the inverter, and you have the huge in rush current and the BMS has to shut down. The same could happen when you connect the charge controllers. For the pre-charge in the battery to work at all, all of the devices it is going to power need to be connected to the battery bus first. All breakers and disconnects should be tuned on. Then turn on the battery last, and it will do the limited current pre-charge into the capacitors in all of the devices. If it still has a problem, try it with just one device and see if it will power that up.

 

[Koldsimer]

Purgatory,

30 ohms should provide an initial current of about 0.4 to 0.5 amps. That is only 6 watts on a 12 volt system, so it will only get a little warm, it is well under the 25 watt rating. But it also might not be quite enough current to "power up" the inverter into standby mode. Do you have more than one of them? Maybe 2 or 3 of them in parallel could give it enough pre-charge current. My system is 48 volts, and I use an 8 ohm resistor. That gives an initial current of at least 6 amps, over 250 watts. For a 12 volt system, I thing you would want about 6 ohms or less to provide at least 2 amps of inrush to charge up the capacitors and get the system into standby. On 12 volt systems, I really like using 55 watt halogen fog light bulbs. The cold filament in the bulb pulls about 8 amps when you first connect it. It lights up fairly bright, and fades out as the caps charge up. Once the bulb is dim, then close the disconnect switch.

You wrote "yes I have a disconnect switch, and I made sure to have it open prior to turning the battery on". This might actually be the main problem. Have you tried turning on your disconnect switch BEFORE turning on the breaker on the battery? I know this does not seem right, but it is a key to how the built in pre-charge in the battery can do it's job. When the battery breaker is turned on, it supplies a limited current to charge up capacitors in your load. Basically just like using our resistor or light bulb. If your disconnect is open, the caps in the inverter are not being charged up. I don't know how the EG4 battery ends the "Pre-charge" time. It could be a straight timer, or it could look at the voltage on the output terminals. Either way, if the inverter and/or charge controllers are not connected when the battery is turned on, the pre-charge is likely ending, and closing the direct battery path to the output terminals. So you now have a high current path when the external disconnects are closed. The pre-charge circuit in the battery module is no longer able to do anything. You close to switch to the inverter, and you have the huge in rush current and the BMS has to shut down. The same could happen when you connect the charge controllers. For the pre-charge in the battery to work at all, all of the devices it is going to power need to be connected to the battery bus first. All breakers and disconnects should be tuned on. Then turn on the battery last, and it will do the limited current pre-charge into the capacitors in all of the devices. If it still has a problem, try it with just one device and see if it will power that up.

Agreed. For the pre-charge function to work all breakers to inverter must be closed. I even tried closing the battery side to my scc's to no avail. Again, I tried literally EVERY possible combination and got the same results with the lifepower batteries. Clicking and fans trying to turn on in the inverter then eventually the batteries alarm light coming on after about 5 seconds.

Gary, i know that you know these Schneider inverters pretty well and are familiar with a lot of their oddities and quirks. I spent hours on the phone with Schneider techs and they all agreed it is something with the batteries. One thing that may help you- one time early on when trying to power on with the lifepower batteries, the inverter got enough juice to record error/faults. Iirc they were w48 w57 and w59. They were fet over temp and dc under voltage related. Maybe that can help you figure this out? Thanks

 

[GXMnow]

One thing that may help you- one time early on when trying to power on with the lifepower batteries, the inverter got enough juice to record error/faults. Iirc they were w48 w57 and w59. They were fet over temp and dc under voltage related. Maybe that can help you figure this out? Thanks

That is interesting. It sounds like the inverter was trying to go into "inverting" while it was still in pre-charge current limit. That seems odd.

When I intentionally power my system down, I always put it into a standby mode, so it won't go into invert when I reconnect the batteries. But in the case of a low battery shut down event, that is not possible. This is another reason, I always like o set the inverter to power down above any BMS shut off voltage. But even in that case, the XW-Pro should wait a few seconds after the battery voltage is qualified before it tries to go into inverting. FET over temp should not happen, especially in a short time trying to get powered up. It has a fairly large heat sink, and a fan to keep it cool at up to 140 amps of current on the DC FET side. I have had mine up to 80 amps, it the air out the top was barely warm. Looking at the live data on mine, I do not see it reporting the FET temp anywhere that I can see. I'll check later and see if I can find it in a modbus register or something. Mine typically runs up to about 50 amps, and occasionally sees 80 amps or so. I have never pushed it to full power in any mode yet.

Richard, if you are still watching here, can you try powering up your XW-Pro inverter, put it into inverting, load the output to at least 1,000 watts. Then turn off your battery and see what it does when you turn it back on again. When the XW qualifies the battery, it should start inverting again, and power the 1,000 watt load. See if the Lifepower battery can handle that situation.

I am not trying to be a pain. I have always been "the guy" when it came to trouble shooting odd issues. I see it as a challenge to walk through the steps and find where something is going wrong. When I still had my own company back in Illinois, 90% of my work was going to sites and fixing something that was not working. I got very good at tracing problems. I even had two very large companies hire me, and fly me to end user locations, to figure out what was going on. They had typically spent several days or longer trying diagnose why the systems were not working as expected over the phone. In both those cases, I found the issues in a matter of hours from getting on site. Diagnosing over phone and e-mail are not always my strong suit though. I was dealing with a very good tech in Mexico City for 2 days, and we could not get a system up and running. My current employer flew me to Mexico to look at it first hand. I got it running in 15 minutes. I felt terrible, I forgot to ask ONE question while on the phone. It was one of those, I fully expected the local engineer would have already noticed, so I didn't bother to ask. So now I do try to ask all the questions, even ones that may seem totally silly. "Are you sure it's plugged in?" Or in the Mexico City case, "Is the correct operating mode box checked in the setup software?" That thing was looking for a device on the network that didn't exist.

 

[jberger]

According to SS tech support “it has a precharge resistor in the batteries to handle inrush current”

I have not been able to locate any precharge resistor or any information on this BMS at all.

I opened up the 12V model when it arrived just to make sure it was similar to the ones that Will had reviewed. I noticed a couple of things that were different and wanted to make sure I knew what I'd purchased.
There is no front breaker on the 12V, and the BMS is different than the others. The biggest difference is the the BMS which groups 4 cells into a single unit, instead of the individual cell monitoring like the larger units.

Here's the BMS board and RS485 board from the 12V model.

WX-4S200A BMS shown on the sticker as WX-4S200A with a serial number, the QR code shows the same serial.
The green board is the 485 interface board with the marking 4S150RS485-V1A
I had hoped there might be a spot to plug in a bluetooth module, but I didn't see one and I wasn't going to disassemble anything, I just pulled the top cover.

 

[Mahendra Gomanie]

Agreed. As you and many others have stated, the problem is bms/pre-charge resistor related.


I have a 250a main breaker between the battery and the inverter. I also have breakers on both of my midnite classics on both the input and the output side. I have tried powering up under every scenario possible. Breakers open, breakers closed, battery on first, battery on last, one battery, two batteries, all four batteries, etc.. Literally, every scenario possible yields the same result with the lifepower batteries. All other batteries work perfectly under any of the above scenarios.

Possibly. I agree that it's unreasonable for SS to test every inverter with every possible scc or other accessory hooked up but a different testing method may have yielded better results.

Another reason i was pissed when they tried to give me "open box" batteries or whatever they want to call them. I'm sure they would have all been at a different soc and voltage which would have caused headaches for me to get them all matched before installation and commissioning. Of course they don't care about details like that so...

Last Wednesday, after spending another two hours on the phone with Richard looking into my bms and hearing that they needed to consult the engineering dept., i came to the conclusion that they have very little idea what's going on. I heard the same thing from Matt over two months ago- we need to talk to engineering to figure this out. The fact that we made zero changes to bms settings or pre-charge timing tells me that Signature solar has no competent Electrical Engineers on staff and they have no idea how to fix this issue.

Potential fixes have been offered on this forum by probably half a dozen competent people- @Hedges @SpongeboB Sinewave @Quattrohead @Mr-Sandman @robby @Horsefly @MrM1 @RCinFLA and that's just off the top of my head- Sorry if i forgot anyone! But SS refuses to even try any of their suggestions.

In the end, i got batteries that work as promised. That's all i wanted. SS can act like they did something great by giving me "upgraded batteries" but it seems to me they simply finally made good on their promise to deliver batteries that work with my equipment.

I've been hesitant to respond to this thread any longer because honestly, i just want this to go away. It's been a nightmare. I've spent well over 100 hours trying to get my "plug ang play" batteries to work missing multiple days of work in the process. I hope nobody else has to go through anything like this and that's why i chose to respond today.

Thats the exact same issue i have on two diffrent systems I mentioned earlier.
I have to time to do trouble shooting for SS either .
I also made a personal decision that i am not going to share any info for the to capitlise on. Because it would appear the do t have their customers at heart.
Many have given suggestions/solutions that SS ignored and kept asking for the same details that was already given.
I also ised an external precharge resistor the it yielded tha same results
I mentioned the only two solutions for me is either
1.with array and charge controller on and generationing more than 5 amps to the battery
Or
2 .Hookup SS battery charger then turn on inverter.
The bottom line a source needs to maintain voltage and above 5amls for.my inverters to start up since.the Eg4 cannot do.that.
YOU are asking the correct questions the correct responses were given ,your diagnose is correct but SS is reluctant to address the issue which is the bms/precharge resistor.

 

[robby]

Thats the exact same issue i have on two diffrent systems I mentioned earlier.
I have to time to do trouble shooting for SS either .
I also made a personal decision that i am not going to share any info for the to capitlise on. Because it would appear the do t have their customers at heart.
Many have given suggestions/solutions that SS ignored and kept asking for the same details that was already given.
I also ised an external precharge resistor the it yielded tha same results
I mentioned the only two solutions for me is either
1.with array and charge controller on and generationing more than 5 amps to the battery
Or
2 .Hookup SS battery charger then turn on inverter.
The bottom line a source needs to maintain voltage and above 5amls for.my inverters to start up since.the Eg4 cannot do.that.
YOU are asking the correct questions the correct responses were given ,your diagnose is correct but SS is reluctant to address the issue which is the bms/precharge resistor.

This is a Precharge resistor issue for sure. I suspect it will go away with a future batch of modified batteries, but those who jumped in now and have issues they will be waging this warranty war for a long time and I suspect with little success.

 

[Koldsimer]

We have a schneider Conext 48v on the way to our bench, we did increase the delay as a precaution in the last update, we have a successful history of using the Conext 6848 with the GYLL and EGYLL, this will be resolved.

Guys, we tried to extend the pre charge capacity and apparently took it too far for the xw pro. the "use a resistor" was a stab at nothing by tech support because this is out of their depth as a problem in general

This is SS replying in this thread over two months ago for anyone who may have missed it.

 

[robby]

Thanks for the detailed reply Koldsimer. This information should help Signature Solar to setup a more elaborate test bed to see if they can track down the problem an come up with improvements so others don't have to deal with the issue you had.

From what I am seeing, Signature Solar is a reseller, they did not design or build these battery modules. But as the importer and sales rep, they are the ones who are standing behind it. Back over 20 years ago, I was a reseller for some gear when I owned my own company back near Chicago, IL. It was a great position when everything worked great, but when new equipment that I sold did not function to the customer's satisfaction, it can be a frustrating position. At least in my case, I was only reselling gear that was made in the USA. I never had to deal with a product engineered in China. I doubt I could still be competitive in the market these days without dealing with China.

As you know, American companies reselling Chinese made products has been the norm now for 20 years. What sets good companies apart from bad ones is the way they handle customers. If your not willing to accept the losses when something is not working your reputation is going to get shot to hell.
In the old days you could contact the USA manufacturer and old Ed the truck driver would bring 10 extra units with your next order to replace the 10 that you replaced for customers. The down side was the profit margins were low. The Chinese have zero interest in taking back defective products because when they sell in bulk the sale price is so low that they expect the US Retailer to eat the loses and don't blame them.

One of my friends use to bring in two containers of LCD TV's from China in the early 2000s every month. He would laugh and tell me that he gets them for $50 a piece and resells them for $250. His policy was if 20 or 30 of them don't work he just writes it off.

As end users, we don't want to be the beta testers, but it does end up happening from time to time. Even if something is engineered locally, they might not have foreseen all of the ways it will be used. In my current job, we still run into this from time to time. Trying to tie together equipment from different manufacturers can sometimes lead to compatibility issues no one ever expected.

I know you feel you got the short end of the stick here, but just imagine where you would be if you just bought the batteries off of Ali Express or something, and could not make I work? It may have taken a lot longer than you wanted, but Richard and Signature Solar did end up getting you a new set of battery modules that are working. Hopefully they learned from this and will be even better at the product support side, and they can get the builder in China to improve the product and reduce the issues.

I think you need to read this thread of the beginning because many of the points you have suggested have been gone through numerous times before. I don't know if your Ali Express comment is all that accurate. I have seen people on here do a lot less battling with sellers from Ali Express and got there refunds or products exchanged. Simple reason was the company wanted to keep on selling via the forum so they needed to get rid of the guy who kept on complaining.

I agree with you that Richard has been great but he does not have the final word and can only work within the parameters his boss sets for him. I also agree a fixed EG4 battery will probably be coming but I don't know what happens to those who bought one before or are buying the batch they are selling now. Even if it works for you now it may not work for you later.
One of my thoughts about @Koldsimer problem was that it could possibly be due to aging electrolytic capacitors in his Inverter. New capacitor will have a lower ESR than older capacitors. The input Capacitance and Resistance of a new Schnieder 6848 will not be the same as one that has been in the field for a year or more. This was something that I thought could have been hashed out quickly had SS driven to his place with a battery that was working on their new 6848.

 

[GXMnow]

I agree with you that Richard has been great but he does not have the final word and can only work within the parameters his boss sets for him. I also agree a fixed EG4 battery will probably be coming but I don't know what happens to those who bought one before or are buying the batch they are selling now. Even if it works for you now it may not work for you later.
One of my thoughts about @Koldsimer problem was that it could possibly be due to aging electrolytic capacitors in his Inverter. New capacitor will have a lower ESR than older capacitors. The input Capacitance and Resistance of a new Schnieder 6848 will not be the same as one that has been in the field for a year or more. This was something that I thought could have been hashed out quickly had SS driven to his place with a battery that was working on their new 6848.

I do agree, if I had been the tech with a site having a problem just 45 minutes away, I would have gone right away to figure out what was going on. But my company also had to have a million dollar liability insurance policy back in the 90's. I am no longer self employed, so that is no longer my problem.

I am not trying to say SS did nothing wrong. I am only trying to help get to the bottom of the issues. My thinking is to want to work the problem, and not worry about the background of how it got here or who did what wrong and where. Pointing fingers and complaining is not fixing the problem. I work on the problem to find the fault. That is who I am and what I do. I came in in the middle of the discussion when the thread got flagged since I also have a Schneider XW-Pro 6848 inverter. I did not read every post. I only personally know one person using EG4 batteries, and they have had no issues at all. I am not near him, so I can't readily put my scope on it to see how it powers up.

If no one on this thread wants to try and work the problem, I will just stop following it. If the people on here having trouble just want to bitch about SS not giving them free replacement batteries and eating all the shipping costs, I have no interest in reading that. I had hoped to defuse that so we could work the problem, but I guess no one actually wants to do that. Complaining about the customer service seems to be the higher priority.

 

[robby]

I do agree, if I had been the tech with a site having a problem just 45 minutes away, I would have gone right away to figure out what was going on. But my company also had to have a million dollar liability insurance policy back in the 90's. I am no longer self employed, so that is no longer my problem.

I don't know what liability insurance they would need as they could have just observed or exchanged his battery and had him install it while they watched.

I am not trying to say SS did nothing wrong. I am only trying to help get to the bottom of the issues. My thinking is to want to work the problem, and not worry about the background of how it got here or who did what wrong and where. Pointing fingers and complaining is not fixing the problem. I work on the problem to find the fault. That is who I am and what I do. I came in in the middle of the discussion when the thread got flagged since I also have a Schneider XW-Pro 6848 inverter. I did not read every post. I only personally know one person using EG4 batteries, and they have had no issues at all. I am not near him, so I can't readily put my scope on it to see how it powers up.

I could have also put it on a scope and I also recommended other solutions that could have fixed the issue but none of that was even listened to by them.

If no one on this thread wants to try and work the problem, I will just stop following it. If the people on here having trouble just want to bitch about SS not giving them free replacement batteries and eating all the shipping costs, I have no interest in reading that. I had hoped to defuse that so we could work the problem, but I guess no one actually wants to do that. Complaining about the customer service seems to be the higher priority.

And there in lies the problem, you have come in after 700 posts of troubleshooting and want to skip reading the first 700 posts and say we should all start over. The reason your getting this kind of attitude is because at least four Electronic/Electrical Engineers have already inputted ideas into this thread and they were either ignored or things were tried with no successs. We all know by now that it is the Pre-Charge resistor circuit or software that is giving the problem and nobody but Signature Solar can solve that issue. There are possible external workarounds that can get around the problem but the consensus is why would someone who has bought a new battery want to mess around with work arounds? If you bought a new car and the dealership tells you a week later that you need to Wad up some chewing gum to keep the rear view mirror from falling out, would you accept that as a solution or want it exchanged under warranty?

 

[Bluedog225]

I hope when the dust settles, this manifests itself into a reliable recommendation regarding which battery to purchase. Good cells, good case, good bms, good communications.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

I'll be honest, I feel like myself and our company is being thrown under the bus here to a degree. We have done so much to help not only the specific user who started this conversation, but others long term as well. We purchased 40+ inverters to date, trying to duplicate this issue with any specific one of them. We manually updated precharge timings from 0-10s, we changed firmware versions, we added additional resistance, we tried doing it with and without a load. It's completely untrue that we 'refuse to try' any number of the suggestions pointed out on this thread. The problem is, and has been that we simply cannot duplicate the issue. Even manually extending the pre-charge timing to 10 seconds, and doing everything in our power, with the EXACT same model inverter that is 'having issues' was not enough to duplicate the issue. We have never one time stated that we don't think there is some sort of issue with the start up cycle of the inverter when used with our batteries - but it's on an INDIVIDUAL USER LEVEL. If it wasn't, we would have duplicated the issue as well. Please @ me with suggestions we haven't tried on our workbench and I'll happily test them - and video if we can duplicate the issue so we can see where the problem lies. It's also important to point out that we didn't make changes to the original users bms for 2 months because roughly half that time was spent waiting for the inverter we purchased to arrive. The entire time, the user was using the batteries in his system and they were operating beyond the initial start up problems. Yes, we asked him to test some stuff locally at his property - but ONLY because we couldn't duplicate the issue. I'm happy to try anything anyone posts, so again please @ me if you have any ideas on what the issue would be and how we can duplicate it. Thanks!

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

I can get you a better picture tomorrow if you need me to. This is the only one on my phone. Can get you an invoice number as well if that helps. I think the order number was #SS-#14383 order date February 6, 2022, delivered Feb 11View attachment 86494

Thanks for this image. This is the 12v model?

 

[400bird]

There is talk about extending the precharge time, but the inverter is going to be trying to use the current from the precharge. You likely need more current, not more time.

Clicking and fans trying to turn on in the inverter then eventually the batteries alarm light coming on after about 5 seconds.

I'm sure you provided that detail already, but that is how my XW acted when I tried to precharge with too high resistance/too low current. I moved to a 4 Ω resistor and haven't had an issue since.

Sorry Gary I should have gone back and found the post, I was referencing the pre charge system because some have questioned if the 12v version has one. As for a preload test this is what I used

NTE Electronics 25W030 Cermet Wire Wound Resistor, 5% Tolerance, Axial Lead, 25W, Flameproof, 30 Ohm Resistance​

I'd say that is too high of a resistance. I'd go for something more like 1 Ω

You are trying to limit the inrush current to something safe for the BMS, wiring, battery etc. We don't need the minimum current, you still need to get some juice into the battery.
Also, it's just for momentary use. It will survive 2 seconds a 4x the rated wattage.

yes I have a disconnect switch, and I made sure to have it open prior to turning the battery on. is it Possible I have chosen the wrong resistor? If I need to do more testing I can but it won’t be able to for a couple weeks. I’m loaded out in my cargo bay for our trip and don’t want to unload to lug 100lb battery in and out lol.

I don't think that is correct. My understanding is that you need to turn on the battery last to enable the precharge. Hopefully Richard or someone will confirm or correct me.

 

[GXMnow]

I'm totally done here and ignoring this thread. I DID read through a huge number of the posts, and no one was trying what I suggested. Or at least they never posted results of the tests. Is there a chance I missed one? sure. But instead of saying they did it and reposting the results of trying something, I get grief and complaints.

Bye.

 

[robby]

I'll be honest, I feel like myself and our company is being thrown under the bus here to a degree. We have done so much to help not only the specific user who started this conversation, but others long term as well. We purchased 40+ inverters to date, trying to duplicate this issue with any specific one of them.

I always thought that was a mistake. It was established pretty early on that some Inverters of the same models worked and some did not. So buying new Inverters was a gamble. I always said that the trip to Kolsimer would have been the best option since he was so close to your Location. Even if this Legal issue was a worry, then your money would have been better spent by hiring a Solar Installer to go out with you to the sight and help you see the problem in action. You guys are major distributors of a well known products, I know for a fact that you sell to Installers in bulk. Your saying that not one of your certified local Installers could have accompanied you to @Koldsimer so you could see first hand what was happening. I figure one of them would have done it as a favor or just for gas money?

We manually updated precharge timings from 0-10s, we changed firmware versions, we added additional resistance, we tried doing it with and without a load.

And that could be one of the problems. Charging time for a capacitor is T=RC and that is to 63% of V to get to 100% you have to use T=5RC
The point is that 10 Seconds might not be enough time to get the voltage to a high enough level to fit the requirements of certain Inverters or possibly the voltage your own BMS is looking for before it will turn on the Mosfets.
I use a 25 Ohm resistor on my precharge and it takes about 10 Seconds to get the voltage to 30Vdc which is enough charge for me to kick on the batteries without feeling like I might be damaging the BMS.

It's completely untrue that we 'refuse to try' any number of the suggestions pointed out on this thread. The problem is, and has been that we simply cannot duplicate the issue.

I said from back at post 219 that you might want to try putting a 1000uf 100V capacitor across the output of the battery so that it would fool the Pre-Charge circuit into thinking it had reached it's target voltage and then the owner would flip on his external breaker to power the Inverter.
One other engineer came in about 10 pages later and suggested the same thing, but both of us were ignored.

Even manually extending the pre-charge timing to 10 seconds, and doing everything in our power, with the EXACT same model inverter that is 'having issues' was not enough to duplicate the issue. We have never one time stated that we don't think there is some sort of issue with the start up cycle of the inverter when used with our batteries - but it's on an INDIVIDUAL USER LEVEL. If it wasn't, we would have duplicated the issue as well. Please @ me with suggestions we haven't tried on our workbench and I'll happily test them - and video if we can duplicate the issue so we can see where the problem lies. It's also important to point out that we didn't make changes to the original users bms for 2 months because roughly half that time was spent waiting for the inverter we purchased to arrive. The entire time, the user was using the batteries in his system and they were operating beyond the initial start up problems. Yes, we asked him to test some stuff locally at his property - but ONLY because we couldn't duplicate the issue. I'm happy to try anything anyone posts, so again please @ me if you have any ideas on what the issue would be and how we can duplicate it. Thanks!

The best way to duplicate it is to get hold of @Koldsimer Inverter and see what it going on. It could be simply that his capacitors have aged and there ESR and Capacity are now out of range for your maximum charge timing. This would of course mean you guys going out to his place and putting back one of his old batteries and using a scope on a slow sweep to see what is happening.