Schneider xw pro 6848 not powering up with eg4 lithium battery

[robby]

My feeling is that the owner of SS is young and has a poor grasp of long term business operations.
He put in a lot of work and promotional money to get SS on the map and it has been paying off for him over the last several months. What he does not realize is that the confidence in his company is eroding away very quickly right now.

It seems like the feeling at SS is that sales are good so focus on sales and forget the few people that are complaining. After all there are always going to be a few people complaining.
Not really, most serious Inverter and battery companies on this forum have very few if any product complaints.

This thread goes back and forth daily and the only reason it does this is because the owner believes that he does not have to directly investigate a customers Inverter. Maybe he feels that all those batteries are now sold and his new batch won't have this issue or maybe he thinks it's just such a rarity and that the issue will go away on its own. Who knows!

Every single company I worked for or owned would have requested @Koldsimer inverter ASAP and started tearing it down to find the problem. If you can present to the Public a Reason and Solution as to why this single Inverter does not work and how you fixed the issue, then you have most likely solved the problem for everyone and removed all doubts about your product.

I don't buy into all the reasons they have given as to why they did not want to exchange his Inverter. My last company would have just straight up bought it from the owner if we could not field diagnose the problem. If there was some kind of legal issue involved we would have simply hired an experienced Installer to go out and exchange it.
Why they have not done this is beyond me.

What I do know is that there are more and more new post showing up asking if I should buy EG4 battery and I am pretty certain it's because of this thread. With so many new rack mount batteries hitting the market and all roughly at the same price point it makes sense that any sane person would head for the one's without the 44 pages of complaints. I learned a long time ago that falling sales typically lag bad PR by a few months.

BTW you better hope a hungry savvy guy like @HighTechLab does not come to his business senses and grab at @Koldsimer Inverter. Back in the old days that is exactly what I would have done and then made a video demonstrating where a EG4 Lifepower battery could not start this Inverter but my new SOK line of batteries have no problem starting it.

 

[Koldsimer]

I bet @RichardfromSignatureSolar could figure it out. Do you guys flash the firmware in house? Who is responsible for coding the BMS? You could even write up a little guide on how to do it. Doesn't seem that hard after talking to sok. Everyone is using the same BMS it seems.

I'll take you up on that bet. After being told for over two months that they were consulting with the "engineers" and the "manufacturer" about making changes to the bms, they were not able to even TRY any changes to the settings of my packs to see if we could get results. I sat there on the phone with Richard for hours, yet again, while he remote accessed my setup and they still couldn't offer anything besides, "we need to speak to engineering" Another day wasted... Thanks SS!

Nobody at Signature Solar knows what's going on with these batteries bms even though Richard told me they have some "bms guru" who speaks to engineering daily. Their idea of figuring this issue out is to keep messing with their inverters, making videos and claiming they work just fine.

$1500 Lifepower batteries that may or may not start your inverter, 25a battery chargers that are maybe 17a, ES500 issue where they proved their "engineers" incompetence, $500 battery racks that don't secure the battery modules, poor product documentation.... Sorry, but they have way too many issues for me and i can't recommend them for anything when there are far better options on the market for every product they sell.

 

[Solar Guy Richard]

I'll take you up on that bet. After being told for over two months that they were consulting with the "engineers" and the "manufacturer" about making changes to the bms, they were not able to even TRY any changes to the settings of my packs to see if we could get results. I sat there on the phone with Richard for hours, yet again, while he remote accessed my setup and they still couldn't offer anything besides, "we need to speak to engineering" Another day wasted... Thanks SS!

Nobody at Signature Solar knows what's going on with these batteries bms even though Richard told me they have some "bms guru" who speaks to engineering daily. Their idea of figuring this issue out is to keep messing with their inverters, making videos and claiming they work just fine.

$1500 Lifepower batteries that may or may not start your inverter, 25a battery chargers that are maybe 17a, ES500 issue where they proved their "engineers" incompetence, $500 battery racks that don't secure the battery modules, poor product documentation.... Sorry, but they have way too many issues for me and i can't recommend them for anything when there are far better options on the market for every product they sell.

What Will is likely referring to with his BMS comment is the line of code that directs the BMS what protocol to communicate on - not the actual hex tables to make a firmware change or update the settings on a specific battery. All of which I do frequently in house with issues far and few between. That being said, we spoke for a total of 1 hour and 46 minutes over a total of 8 calls. Much of this time was me waiting for the connection to re-establish while you went from below to above your house and lost WiFi signals while turning the system off and on. However, there was a period of about 15-20 minutes while I verified some settings with the manufacturer of the BMS, and when I didn't get an immediate response I stopped the troubleshooting process as I didn't feel comfortable making changes until I had an answer. After your batteries were dropped off, and I tested them with our out of the box new Schneider 6848 (which I recorded and published), the very next thing I did was look into the errors we had gotten while I was remoted in, and as I stated previously I was able to make changes etc with no issues to the batteries you dropped off. I don't know what was preventing the communication before, if it was a driver issue on the computer, something with your connection or network, or something else, but being unable to duplicate the issue for testing makes it extremely difficult to actually test what happened while you were at a different location.

 

[Mr-Sandman]

Is that true though? A number of folks suggested ways of pre-charging to isolate that as the cause and I don't believe that test ever happened.

True as the day is long, unless you are suggesting tampering with the BMS internally.

 

[Koldsimer]

And even at the end of this ordeal with the user, (one which I know offered frustrations to both sides), he ended up with an upgraded battery at no additional cost to him that works.

I'd call it a battery that finally works, not upgraded.

No cost? I always knew that's about how much you guys valued my time and frustration. No cost? Well i did purchase a couple resistors and a switch- which you then told me not use because the battery had one built in. And of course gas money driving back and forth to Sulpher Springs- since you guys couldn't even meet me halfway etc..

 

[mnd]

I'd call it a battery that finally works.

Or... a battery that masks some underlying problem that's still lurking in the particulars of your installation.

 

[Koldsimer]

Or... a battery that masks some underlying problem that's still lurking in the particulars of your installation.

You might have missed it, but my system works perfectly with 3 other batteries- crown cr430, Discover lithium, and the LL model. I can start the inverter in multiple ways, without failure. It's been operational for about 15 months with zero failures prior to me trying the lifepower batteries.

I don't know what in my system could be "problematic" but I agree, it's something that is different than their bench testing. How different? I guess we will never know since they couldn't send anyone out to investigate after i did everything but beg for them to see it in person.

Maybe they will send someone to Mahindra to see what's going on?

 

[HighTechLab]

@Koldsimer Can I send you one of the SOK rack mount 48v100ah batteries to test with your inverter? Since SS tested with identical models of inverter and couldn't reproduce the issue, instead of buying your inverter from you as @robby suggested, perhaps you wouldn't mind testing our battery with your inverter?

In engineering, when things go wrong, we refer to it as the "golden failure". You can design a product and test it in a lab for ages without it failing, but when it gets into the field and does fail, that's your golden ticket to product improvement. They teach you this in school.

A engineer friend of mine was working at HP designing a supercomputer for the government, using twisted pair to send a microwave signal at super high frequencies from one side of the computer to another. (not like just a PC, but like, this thing took a whole room and bought every single memory chip Motorola could crank out at the time). He ran into an issue when they built the computer because the negative signal wire had a black stripe, so the signal made it down the wire slower...In theory both wires were identical, but it wasn't until they built this supercomputer that they learned that the stripe alone changed the speed of the signal in wire. A bit off topic, but the point stands, when things fail you have to figure out the root cause so you can improve/fix things. After this issue, they made both wires the same color and the issue went away.

 

[Koldsimer]

@Koldsimer Can I send you one of the SOK rack mount 48v100ah batteries to test with your inverter? Since SS tested with identical models of inverter and couldn't reproduce the issue, instead of buying your inverter from you as @robby suggested, perhaps you wouldn't mind testing our battery with your inverter?

In engineering, when things go wrong, we refer to it as the "golden failure". You can design a product and test it in a lab for ages without it failing, but when it gets into the field and does fail, that's your golden ticket to product improvement. They teach you this in school.

A engineer friend of mine was working at HP designing a supercomputer for the government, using twisted pair to send a microwave signal at super high frequencies from one side of the computer to another. (not like just a PC, but like, this thing took a whole room and bought every single memory chip Motorola could crank out at the time). He ran into an issue when they built the computer because the negative signal wire had a black stripe, so the signal made it down the wire slower...In theory both wires were identical, but it wasn't until they built this supercomputer that they learned that the stripe alone changed the speed of the signal in wire. A bit off topic, but the point stands, when things fail you have to figure out the root cause so you can improve/fix things. After this issue, they made both wires the same color and the issue went away.

I'd be happy to work with you. Thanks for the offer. I'll be honest, im 99% sure the sok will work just fine out of the box, so i don't want you to waste your time.



And i agree 100% with your golden failure comment.

 

[400bird]

True as the day is long, unless you are suggesting tampering with the BMS internally.

External precharge would work without issue. Guaranteed, because that's basically what he was doing by turning on the solar charge controllers. Externally precharging from a different source.

 

[HighTechLab]

I'd be happy to work with you. Thanks for the offer. I'll be honest, im 99% sure the sok will work just fine out of the box, so i don't want you to waste your time.



And i agree 100% with your golden failure comment.

My offer stands, let me know. Thanks!

 

[Mr-Sandman]

External precharge would work without issue. Guaranteed, because that's basically what he was doing by turning on the solar charge controllers. Externally precharging from a different source.

External pre-charge from another power source = Yes that works. Like you said that is what was accomplished with the solar charge controller providing power.

External pre-charge using the EG4 LifePower4 as the power source, WILL NOT WORK!!! The internal BMS controlled pre-charge function cannot be bypassed.

 

[Mahendra Gomanie]

I did .Remember i mentiined a bought a new outback radian.
Retailer /installer confrimed its a battery issue .system set up followed all codes.
I even got the outback load centre and replaced wrining from panels to battery both on dc and ac side.
New grounds as well.
So basically it was a new install that resulted in the same

And We purchased an Outback Radian that works with the batteries. You can't use anecdotal evidence as evidence for an overarching problem. You can use your anecdotal evidence as a contribution to statistics, but saying "XX didn't work for me" is the least valid type of evidence that exists. I personally was attacked by a dog who was behind a fence - does that mean every dog behind a fence will attack someone? That's why statistics matter much more when it comes to quite literally any academic study. If you told me "We have 1000 Radian Outbacks and tested it on all of them and it didn't work" that would be another story. I believe I put the video of the outback working with the batteries for everyone to see. And again - I'm not disputing that this didn't work for you. I simply am unable to duplicate the issue using a controlled environment.

Ss should bear in mind.This is their test not third party or external.
In evidence provisions external/third party is alway superior.
I am not pointing fingers.
It think unanimous for the following :
1.So far ss battery is the only battery with precharge risistor we know about that is of decent quality
2.Its the only battery that has been reported to has issues starting inverters regardless of chemistry.

 

[Hedges]

I'd be happy to work with you. Thanks for the offer. I'll be honest, im 99% sure the sok will work just fine out of the box, so i don't want you to waste your time.

My offer stands, let me know. Thanks!

Not at all a waste of time. If you report High Tech's lab's battery works out of the box, it is a feather in his cap and helps him sell more batteries. If it malfunctions, he will figure out how to fix it and better serve his customers.

"It's not the Big Fish that eat the small, it's the fast eat the slow"

Me thinks High Tech is fast. And hungry.

 

[Koldsimer]

Spoke with @HighTechLab and he is going to send over a battery for testing purposes.

Really nice to see a company taking a pro-active step to make sure their product works for as many as possible out here in the real world, in actual installations. Not just a test bench.

 

[Will Prowse]

@HighTechLab is #1 on my recommended vendor list for all of these reasons above. He will find the problem and fix it. And then include useful documentation for products if necessary. I argue for hours with other solar businesses, but I don't have to with Dexter. he just gets it.

 

[Mahendra Gomanie]

My feeling is that the owner of SS is young and has a poor grasp of long term business operations.
He put in a lot of work and promotional money to get SS on the map and it has been paying off for him over the last several months. What he does not realize is that the confidence in his company is eroding away very quickly right now.

It seems like the feeling at SS is that sales are good so focus on sales and forget the few people that are complaining. After all there are always going to be a few people complaining.
Not really, most serious Inverter and battery companies on this forum have very few if any product complaints.

This thread goes back and forth daily and the only reason it does this is because the owner believes that he does not have to directly investigate a customers Inverter. Maybe he feels that all those batteries are now sold and his new batch won't have this issue or maybe he thinks it's just such a rarity and that the issue will go away on its own. Who knows!

Every single company I worked for or owned would have requested @Koldsimer inverter ASAP and started tearing it down to find the problem. If you can present to the Public a Reason and Solution as to why this single Inverter does not work and how you fixed the issue, then you have most likely solved the problem for everyone and removed all doubts about your product.

I don't buy into all the reasons they have given as to why they did not want to exchange his Inverter. My last company would have just straight up bought it from the owner if we could not field diagnose the problem. If there was some kind of legal issue involved we would have simply hired an experienced Installer to go out and exchange it.
Why they have not done this is beyond me.

What I do know is that there are more and more new post showing up asking if I should buy EG4 battery and I am pretty certain it's because of this thread. With so many new rack mount batteries hitting the market and all roughly at the same price point it makes sense that any sane person would head for the one's without the 44 pages of complaints. I learned a long time ago that falling sales typically lag bad PR by a few months.

BTW you better hope a hungry savvy guy like @HighTechLab does not come to his business senses and grab at @Koldsimer Inverter. Back in the old days that is exactly what I would have done and then made a video demonstrating where a EG4 Lifepower battery could not start this Inverter but my new SOK line of batteries have no problem starting it.

?Right on target.
Apprently SS feels we want extra or new batteries.I kept saying i am halfway around the world i am not really interested in spending all that money to ship or replace.
Just trying to get the issue sorted out.
I was serious with the inverter offer though.

 

[Mahendra Gomanie]

You might have missed it, but my system works perfectly with 3 other batteries- crown cr430, Discover lithium, and the LL model. I can start the inverter in multiple ways, without failure. It's been operational for about 15 months with zero failures prior to me trying the lifepower batteries.

I don't know what in my system could be "problematic" but I agree, it's something that is different than their bench testing. How different? I guess we will never know since they couldn't send anyone out to investigate after i did everything but beg for them to see it in person.

Maybe they will send someone to Mahindra to see what's going on?

Hey maybe your installation is perfect .
Its probably the Life batteries they probably dont like perfect set ups.
Because in my earlier post Richard actually seems to be suggesting that Outback (i have 10years warranty which they have already replace a problematic mate 3s under warranty) i problems with their set ups.

 

[Koldsimer]

Hey maybe your installation is perfect .
Its probably the Life batteries they probably dont like perfect set ups.
Because in my earlier post Richard actually seems to be suggesting that Outback (i have 10years warranty which they have already replace a problematic mate 3s under warranty) i problems with their set ups.

Haha yeah, maybe. It was perfect enough for every other battery tested to work just fine, kinda like your system. It's just such a shame they didn't take the opportunity to send someone out to get this figured out. It likely would have solved your problem, and at least half a dozen others as well.

Maybe you should just invite them to your place to see what's going on! I believe you are a bit farther away but who's counting miles here! LOL

 

[Purgatory]

I'll research. How many batteries do you have and exactly what are you trying to run? Have you verified the starting amperage - this battery has a separate manufacturer and bms unit than the LifePower4 so the other issues above don't really apply here.

Ok, I’m back off vacation so can join back in the conversation. Well as you know first of all it won’t even start the system up so doesn’t much matter what I am running, but here are a couple items that kill it when I get the battery running (it is 1 single rack system as previously shown 400ah). 1500w microwave, 13500 btu Coleman Mach Airconditioner. Now keep in mind I just spent a week out of town and the system worked flawless using another brand battery with built in BMS. Even ran the AC unit for around an hour while stopped at a rest stop While watching tv and eating lunch. I have not checked the starting amperage on the ac unit but can climb up on the roof and remove the shroud to check. At this point I really don’t want to waste my time or effort unless you are planning on taking the battery back. If you would like me to conduct some tests so as to assist you before you take it back I would be happy to, but if all of this is just to tell me it should work and must be something in my system I have better things to do. Just didn’t want to get stuck with an expensive paper weight. Attached is yesterdays usage on a very overcast day, not sure if that will help you in anyway.

 

[robby]

Another Thread has been spawned by the Owner of SS.

https://diysolarforum.com/threads/l...-with-anything-weve-tried-so-far.37120/page-3

 

[Mahendra Gomanie]

Another Thread has been spawned by the Owner of SS.

https://diysolarforum.com/threads/l...-with-anything-weve-tried-so-far.37120/page-3

This is getting really unprofessional from SS

 

[400bird]

External pre-charge using the EG4 LifePower4 as the power source, WILL NOT WORK!!! The internal BMS controlled pre-charge function cannot be bypassed.

So, it won't even power up some wires and a resistor? I have doubts, I don't think that is how the internal precharge works.

 

[Mr-Sandman]

So, it won't even power up some wires and a resistor? I have doubts, I don't think that is how the internal precharge works.

How do you THINK the internal pre-charge works on the EG4 LifePower4 batteries? THINK being the key word, because NO ONE knows, not even SS.

 

[400bird]

Point taken.
But, the key is "pre" charge.

1. Power on battery. (In theory precharge happens here, but in this case there's no capacitors connected to have any in-rush current)
2. Precharge Inverter with external resistor.
3. Close inverter DC breaker.