Terrible Signature Solar / EG4 18Kpv Experience - Returning and Replaced with Sol-Ark 15k

[Watts Happening]

What was the largest amount of back feeding that you measured with your meter and not with the screen? How long did it last for

Here's the most recent event they apologized and offered to pay for. I'll have to dig through the rest of the logs over the weekend, getting a bit tied up this afternoon.

 

[Watts Happening]

Looks like we squeaked by! The 15 minute readings seem to have just barely been offset by some parasitic draw in the house, I'd call this cutting it close!

 

[G00SE]

@Watts Happening in glad you're finally having a good Deye. ?

wheeeewwww. It’s been a tough week over here and reading that pun had me laughing wayyyy more than it should have
?

 

[Solar Guppy]

Your log shows your in variable solar insolation ( likely partly cloudy conditions ) and there is a large increase in harvest from the array which the inverter has to react too, and its limited when battery is near full what can be done. This is a textbook case why a true zero export doesn't work, most manufactures recommend a setting of a few hundred watts of grid import to give some head room for conditions like this.

I know nothing about the settings of the EG4 18K, but there likely is a setting to deal with this. To my knowledge there is no inverter on the market that can do true no grid export in variable conditions with full batteries, so adding some padding is recommended to the import/export value.

There are technical reasons for this, it has to do with the DSP digital control loops, the software has to balance fast reaction time vs. stability, this situation is a worst case scenario.

 

[Watts Happening]

Your log shows your in variable solar insolation ( likely partly cloudy conditions ) and there is a large increase in harvest from the array which the inverter has to react too, and its limited when battery is near full what can be done. This is a textbook case why a true zero export doesn't work, most manufactures recommend a setting of a few hundred watts of grid import to give some head room for conditions like this.

I know nothing about the settings of the EG4 18K, but there likely is a setting to deal with this. To my knowledge there is no inverter on the market that can do true no grid export in variable conditions with full batteries, so adding some padding is recommended to the import/export value.

There are technical reasons for this, it has to do with the DSP digital control loops, the software has to balance fast reaction time vs. stability, this situation is a worst case scenario.

I understand your argument, however this inverter never once had a solar array connected to it.

 

[BenFromSignatureSolar]

@Watts Happening I really hate that things didn't turn out better here. I commend you and Markus both for trying so hard to get things going. After doing some digging into the situation I've ended up with more questions than answers really and I can assure the entire forum that we will be growing from this experience. I was able to get the data from your logger and I think part of what happened when Ty got involved is that the team was unable to verify the results. I posted the graphs showing that it wasn't tracking any back feed until Ty turned on Peak Shaving on the 31st to try and make some progress. This is just is obviously a snapshot from each day so there is likely more to the story than I have access too. I'll need to look more into the screenshot that you posted for back feed. For the issues you were having about battery discharge, I think the uniqueness of that request was what was giving trouble with an acceptable resolution. We'll be looking into this in great detail next week.

I'm glad to see that the resolution team made the correction on shipping and restocking, I don't think it was looked at and you ended up getting a formatted response that was sent without full consideration.

I'm glad you are amiable to working together to move past the situation and I hope you have good luck with your system moving forward. I hate that this has turned out to be a blemish on what has been a rock solid unit for almost everyone else that has purchased the unit. This is honestly the first time we've RMA'd a unit for anything but shipping damage. I'm curious to see the findings once if comes back for testing.

 

[Solar Guppy]

In your Data history, the variation with Pinv and Pload correlates with the unwanted export.

I mistook Pinv for PV array, but the same concerns apply, also there is delays in reading the main CT's via serial communications ( I assume you have these installed? ) to read the actual export to the meter.

 

[BenFromSignatureSolar]

A little better detailed view at the time of sell back from the 31st

 

[Watts Happening]

@Watts Happening I really hate that things didn't turn out better here. I commend you and Markus both for trying so hard to get things going. After doing some digging into the situation I've ended up with more questions than answers really and I can assure the entire forum that we will be growing from this experience. I was able to get the data from your logger and I think part of what happened when Ty got involved is that the team was unable to verify the results. I posted the graphs showing that it wasn't tracking any back feed until Ty turned on Peak Shaving on the 31st to try and make some progress. This is just is obviously a snapshot from each day so there is likely more to the story than I have access too. I'll need to look more into the screenshot that you posted for back feed. For the issues you were having about battery discharge, I think the uniqueness of that request was what was giving trouble with an acceptable resolution. We'll be looking into this in great detail next week.

I'm glad to see that the resolution team made the correction on shipping and restocking, I don't think it was looked at and you ended up getting a formatted response that was sent without full consideration.

I'm glad you are amiable to working together to move past the situation and I hope you have good luck with your system moving forward. I hate that this has turned out to be a blemish on what has been a rock solid unit for almost everyone else that has purchased the unit. This is honestly the first time we've RMA'd a unit for anything but shipping damage. I'm curious to see the findings once if comes back for testing.

I appreciate the response and sincerely hope to see the product flourish. I wanted it to work so badly, but I hope you can see the frustration I was having.

I hope this is a totally isolated incident and over time I look like the weird guy who didn't stick around for something great. I simply can't have any back feeding and dealing with our local power company has been a nightmare, especially when you use the term "homeowner installed solar". If that were a different situation I wouldn't care one bit that 200w was back feeding the grid, that would just become an accounting thing.

As I've previously stated, I wish you guys the best, I think the product is physically amazing and in due time I imagine the bugs will be worked out. Hopefully at that point we can circle back and give me a reason to replace my Sol-Ark (or whatever I'm using at that time).

If there is anything I can offer from my end, be that advice or testing, you just let me know. I don't want to be bashing you guys, it's been a real tough week of this back and fourth and feeling like I'm losing ground. I promise I didn't want to buy the competing product and do it all over again.

 

[SilverbackMP]

I would have been out after the device required a server connection to even operate or at least become operable. Pizz on that. Nope. It’s not that difficult to have it build a webpage on a local IP.

 

[Watts Happening]

I would have been out after the device required a server connection to even operate. Pizz on that. Nope.

For clarity, I don't believe it technically requires a server connection to do that. I imagine someone else can verify this, but my understanding is that you can fully configure it via the screen, which I believe to be true.

 

[Danke]

If you value your time and want to set a unit up and know that it is going to work, seriously, spend the extra money on the Sol-Ark. It isn't THAT much more expensive and the difference is night and day. Their support called me back quick, totally knew what they were doing and had a deep understanding of the unit.

And especially if you can take advantage of the FTC, the Sol-Ark is not much more really.

$3919.30 vs. $4822.30

Edit: I see SS offers free shipping for the 18K, so need to add that to the Sol-Ark price for comparison.

 

[Watts Happening]

If you can take advantage of the FTC, the Sol-Ark is not much more really.

$3919.30 vs. $4822.30

Agreed, and the discrepancy for me was even less, I have the advantage of being a dealer for products in this line of work. EG4 I paid "retail", Sol-Ark I "got a deal".

 

[cs1234]

Yeah, absolutely. They did offer to return it right? If they cannot figure it out remotely, having it on Markus's desk might be the only solution. I want to know what's going on with that unit

We should ask Signature Solar if it can be shipped to you instead, so you can play with it first. Your report on it would have significantly less potential bias.

 

[SignatureSolarJames]

Agreed, and the discrepancy for me was even less, I have the advantage of being a dealer for products in this line of work. EG4 I paid "retail", Sol-Ark I "got a deal".

What is your company affiliation?
What tier of Sol-Ark distribution did you get put at?

 

[ghostwriter66]

Much appreciated!

I 100% agree with the points relating to selling a Chinese rebranded product and I literally brought that up to them.

As a vendor it’s super enticing to get what feels like an exclusive deal on an incredible device at rock bottom prices, you’re able to undercut the competition and on paper deliver an even better product. The issue becomes exactly what you stated, nobody in your business has the ability to make changes as needed. It’s a huge pain in the ass dealing with software engineers in other countries, add in differing electrical systems there and here, codes and more and it becomes a mess fast.

I’m totally aware that IF they had the ability to shut off all grid backfeed they would in a heartbeat. Clearly they know that’s an issue and want it rectified. They also would love of the inverter did exactly what was asked of it 100% of the time, but it simply doesn’t and people have to realize when you’re using a unit this expensive it’s the heart of your home (or whatever you have it installed in/on). I can’t sit around praying for revisions of software, I can’t keep telling the wife she’s going to lose power because someone that’s helping the company we bought it from is going to try some new firmware and settings.

A unit like this has to be like a pacemaker, you don’t put them in until you KNOW it’s going to work. Clearly I’m exaggerating a bit with that, but the point remains true.

When I get the new iPhone each year I don’t wonder if I’ll be able to make a call or receive a text. I’m paying a premium for a product I know will work, and that’s where this unit is priced.

It’s simple, make it work, make a lot of money, have less upset customers and when you do have one, treat them appropriately. Don’t make up nonsense and blame them, nor make it their fault your unit isn’t working.

For the 10th time I want to see them succeed, I mean that completely sincerely. If for nothing else, to drive market competition and force Sol-Ark and the like to step up their game too. It really can be a win-win for everyone. I’m just not willing to be the Guinea pig and treated like I’m a moron.

Just to beat a dead horse on how difficult this is for companies like Signature Solar when issues happen.

BUT this does have a Happy Ending ...

(3) months ago one of the crew from our "monitoring and quantifying methane emissions Team" from the oil and gas side of the house decided they wanted us to switch over to a measuring device that was specifically designed for another oil company but we were told would work for our stuff also since we got the cameras from the same manufacturer. This should be a simple - pull the Bluetooth - and plug in the WiFi - give it an IP address - and be done ...

nearly a week later - with my tech team here in South Texas, our network guys in Houston and the "manufacturer" in Illinois we still could not get the system to be seen on the web...

Turns out the manufacturer was literally a guy running his business out of his garage but advertising a address to a much larger industrial park where he had "rented" a mailbox at. (No big deal - as long as the stuff works who cares -- BUT it didn't work) .... He finally after 48 hours of realizing that he was going to blow a big deal told us that he could put us on the phone with his design engineers but that we would need to call at 7 PM our time -- (Which translates to 0800 China time) ... no problem we did that ... after talking to those guys - lets call them COMPANY A for about 5 minutes all they wanted us to do was write our questions down and send to them ....

FAST FORWARD -- Company A turned out to be a electronic Wholesaler for Company B -- who also was a wholesaler to a consortium. We could not talk directly to anyone -- literally everyone had to be on the phone as they passed us along ... finally we got to this company called PCBMAY whose engineer said "pop the case - on the underside of the circuit board which you can't see and will need to unscrew 4 screws to get to - you will see 3 dip switches - push all of them to 0 and then take the middle one and pull it up to 1" .. we asked him to hold on for a minute .... and BOOM ... the box connected to the APP and the APP to our network ...

Then the guy messed up and said if you have any other issues just contact us at tech@pcbmay....

we all said thanks ... everyone hung up ...

we reported everything up to office in LA and we were fine ...

HAPPY ENDING TIME: During all of that one of our sales people looked at the phone notes and reached out NOT to TECH@PCBMAY but instead SALES@PCBMAY and asked for a quote for 50 of these modules that we were about to pay $232 each for .... yeah -- turns out they sell them retail for $31 each on Alibaba and will program them all ahead of time if you provide the static IP addresses ...

SO our future 11600 cost dropped to $1550 - delivered - and programmed...

so each of the middle men were simply jacking the prices a few 1000% each ... and neither we nor our teammate had really cared enough to breakopen this device to see who made it because really - $232 each seemed like a fair price to the Purchasing Dept who had no idea what it was and these are going on sensors that cost well above 50K each ...

I tell this long story simply because even the folks that sell Signature Solar their stuff may not know the answer because they may just be yet another cog in the machine simply moving something from the left hand to the right .... SOOO if anyone tells you to email the issues to them even when they are on the phone -- yeah -- they are as clueless as you ...

(PS) The sales kid out of LA that noticed all of this got an on the spot bonus we were told .... typically the company will give something like 10% of cost savings to you if you figure a way of saving them money .... in this case he saved them about 10000 ....

THATS also why we love these breakdown videos that Will and "off grid garage" and "Ray builds cool stuff"does ... cause when they are tearing the crap out of these builds we are zooming in on serial numbers and manufacturer codes and seeing who actually put WHAT - WHERE and going to them directly ...

 

[cs1234]

Sounds like a hardware issue. The new firmware is solid. I think something on the unit is defective.

I'm sure it could be a hardware problem.

You are a trusted person in this industry, possibly the most trusted in the DIY space, and have a solid working unit with a firmware you like in your possession. Theoretically however, nothing you could do with this defective unit, Signature Solar couldn't do better at their shop.

It's a matter of impartiality though. Whom do we here on the forum, as a whole, find more trustworthy, Will Prowse, or Signature Solar? Judging from past threads, I'm going to say.. Will Prowse.

Regardless, it will be interesting to see what the verdict is. Peak shaving is obviously a very important feature given the increase of time of use billing we can expect to see in the future.

 

[Alkaline]

Just to beat a dead horse on how difficult this is for companies like Signature Solar when issues happen.

BUT this does have a Happy Ending ...

(3) months ago one of the crew from our "monitoring and quantifying methane emissions Team" from the oil and gas side of the house decided they wanted us to switch over to a measuring device that was specifically designed for another oil company but we were told would work for our stuff also since we got the cameras from the same manufacturer. This should be a simple - pull the Bluetooth - and plug in the WiFi - give it an IP address - and be done ...

nearly a week later - with my tech team here in South Texas, our network guys in Houston and the "manufacturer" in Illinois we still could not get the system to be seen on the web...

Turns out the manufacturer was literally a guy running his business out of his garage but advertising a address to a much larger industrial park where he had "rented" a mailbox at. (No big deal - as long as the stuff works who cares -- BUT it didn't work) .... He finally after 48 hours of realizing that he was going to blow a big deal told us that he could put us on the phone with his design engineers but that we would need to call at 7 PM our time -- (Which translates to 0800 China time) ... no problem we did that ... after talking to those guys - lets call them COMPANY A for about 5 minutes all they wanted us to do was write our questions down and send to them ....

FAST FORWARD -- Company A turned out to be a electronic Wholesaler for Company B -- who also was a wholesaler to a consortium. We could not talk directly to anyone -- literally everyone had to be on the phone as they passed us along ... finally we got to this company called PCBMAY whose engineer said "pop the case - on the underside of the circuit board which you can't see and will need to unscrew 4 screws to get to - you will see 3 dip switches - push all of them to 0 and then take the middle one and pull it up to 1" .. we asked him to hold on for a minute .... and BOOM ... the box connected to the APP and the APP to our network ...

Then the guy messed up and said if you have any other issues just contact us at tech@pcbmay....

we all said thanks ... everyone hung up ...

we reported everything up to office in LA and we were fine ...

HAPPY ENDING TIME: During all of that one of our sales people looked at the phone notes and reached out NOT to TECH@PCBMAY but instead SALES@PCBMAY and asked for a quote for 50 of these modules that we were about to pay $232 each for .... yeah -- turns out they sell them retail for $31 each on Alibaba and will program them all ahead of time if you provide the static IP addresses ...

SO our future 11600 cost dropped to $1550 - delivered - and programmed...

so each of the middle men were simply jacking the prices a few 1000% each ... and neither we nor our teammate had really cared enough to breakopen this device to see who made it because really - $232 each seemed like a fair price to the Purchasing Dept who had no idea what it was and these are going on sensors that cost well above 50K each ...

I tell this long story simply because even the folks that sell Signature Solar their stuff may not know the answer because they may just be yet another cog in the machine simply moving something from the left hand to the right .... SOOO if anyone tells you to email the issues to them even when they are on the phone -- yeah -- they are as clueless as you ...

(PS) The sales kid out of LA that noticed all of this got an on the spot bonus we were told .... typically the company will give something like 10% of cost savings to you if you figure a way of saving them money .... in this case he saved them about 10000 ....

THATS also why we love these breakdown videos that Will and "off grid garage" and "Ray builds cool stuff"does ... cause when they are tearing the crap out of these builds we are zooming in on serial numbers and manufacturer codes and seeing who actually put WHAT - WHERE and going to them directly ...

EDITED, don't want to take this topic off track...

 

[cs1234]

Agreed, and the discrepancy for me was even less, I have the advantage of being a dealer for products in this line of work. EG4 I paid "retail", Sol-Ark I "got a deal".

What is your company affiliation?
What tier of Sol-Ark distribution did you get put at?

That is a good question James. It would be interesting to know how he is affiliated with Sol-Ark.

Unfortunately, the attitude and professionalism of the SS employees that provided customer service to Watts Happening on this issue was really bad. Markus got downright beligerent, unprovoked. That's the situation you should be looking into. Professionalism and good customer service starts at the top and works its way down.

 

[Watts Happening]

What is your company affiliation?
What tier of Sol-Ark distribution did you get put at?

I have no affiliation with Sol-Ark.