(updated) Signature Solar 48v Chargeverter
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timselectric
If I can do it, you can do it.
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Gold plated.
Must be.
DIYrich
Solar Wizard
Bms, case, class t fuse and holder, shunt, switch (60v 200 amp), wire, bench power supply to balance, good clamp multimeter, hydraulic crimper, etc.
Case can be expensive if you buy (250).
I think DIY parts for compression was $50-$100.
Some of the stuff is one-time (but if you don't have it already...) some you should buy for the powerpro (class t fuse, shunt).
$50 here, $100 there, it can add up.
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You can get a Luyuan box and JK BMS which is basically everything you need for well under $1000.
If you DIY the box further you can get cheaper. I am no where close to $1000 for mine and I've screwed up a bit already and needing more stuff. I may even come in at under $1000 for two boxes, maybe.
Of course you can do things to male yhe box fancy and whatever that can drive cost up. And of course a pre-built has its advantages (UL cert, plug-n-play, less time involved, etc). Pros and cons to both but no need to inflate the cost of DIY.
timselectric
If I can do it, you can do it.
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BMS, breaker, hand built shelving, done.
I have built 5 batteries and not spent $1k yet.
But, I didn't have to purchase wiring. I had scrap lying around.
I have built 5 batteries and not spent $1k yet.
But, I didn't have to purchase wiring. I had scrap lying around.
boss hugg
New Member
I have a HAM friend that is advising me to go with Schneider inverters that honestly would be out of my price range. But more back to the topic here, he's now up to 11 batteries of 48v, 200ah each. He sent me to Aliexpress, where I ordered 16 cells and a Daly BMS for $1007. Yes, I'll have to wait two or three months for them to arrive, but $$$. I'll build a rack to suit, but...to the topic, I feel like the advice from another friend is worth taking: don't put all your eggs in one basket. He said it's not exactly wise to buy one inverter/charger/whatever unit to do it all. When one part of that unit fails, you either buy something to pick up that function or you replace the whole thing. And you could've bought individual components to start with and maybe cheaper?? So. I'm learning. Studying. I don't have a lot of money to spend on it, but it's tornado season and it seems that our power coop is targeted by storms these days and my wife was not created to do without power. Not to mention the cost of power is ever increasing. Thanks for the help!
That makes sense until you factor in being able to buy 2 or 3 all in ones for the price of one setup via components.
Plus the all in ones are repairable if you buy the right one. You just replace the bad board if something happens and those boards at least with my tp6048 are WAY cheaper than any of the component setups pieces.
Since you will have spares if you spend the same money you can just swap out a bad all in one and be back up instantly while getting the cheap parts to get the bad all in one back going
boss hugg
New Member
yeah, all that's crossed my mind a couple times. I throw my hands up and yell, "Well, there's ANOTHER option!" It's SO hard to make a decision. Anyway, I feel like I've hijacked this thread.That makes sense until you factor in being able to buy 2 or 3 all in ones for the price of one setup via components.
Plus the all in ones are repairable if you buy the right one. You just replace the bad board if something happens and those boards at least with my tp6048 are WAY cheaper than any of the component setups pieces.
Since you will have spares if you spend the same money you can just swap out a bad all in one and be back up instantly while getting the cheap parts to get the bad all in one back going
wpns
Solar Joules are catch and release
Yeah, there comes a point where many cheap things is less expensive than one "Good" one, though everyone gets to make their own choice on each piece. Your HAM friend with his Schneider inverters and AliExpress batteries seems conflicted. 8*)
wpns
Solar Joules are catch and release
It's called a 'wide ranging discussion'. 8*)
Brucey
Solar Wizard
Be careful with AliExpress unless you know exactly who you are dealing with.
wpns
Solar Joules are catch and release
With AliExpress you never know exactly who you are dealing with from one day to the next. I mean, I buy $50 depth sensors because they work and I got tired of replacing the $700 ones every few years, but I don't have any great expectations for them. They've lasted a year so far, so I'm pretty happy, and their $3.5 USB-RS485 interfaces seem to work fine, but I wouldn't buy anything that I was going to depend on for safety or continuity of power.
boss hugg
New Member
The friend that sent me there has been living off 6 of those 11 batteries for a few years. As long as I pay thru Paypal G&S, i'm covered, right?
DIYrich
Solar Wizard
AIO gives you a little more efficiency when going from pv to ac directly. It can do that high voltage to high voltage.
With components, the charge controller steps down to 48v to connect to battery and inverter. The inverter then steps back up to 240v.
Paralleling a component Outback sysyem gives you easily replaceable parts and redundancy, but it comes at a cost of space and $'s. In a remote off-grid situation that helps with 24/7/365 power. In a grid connected residental system, not so important.
With components, the charge controller steps down to 48v to connect to battery and inverter. The inverter then steps back up to 240v.
Paralleling a component Outback sysyem gives you easily replaceable parts and redundancy, but it comes at a cost of space and $'s. In a remote off-grid situation that helps with 24/7/365 power. In a grid connected residental system, not so important.
The way I'm changing stuff on my setup the all in one sungold tp6048 will continue powering the house and most of my panels will go thru its charge controller. I will be ordering an eg4 100 amp charge controller to charge the batteries using the remaining panels.
This way the extra panels can help run the house during the day via the eg4 charge controllers. So extra components even with an all in one is possible and actually pretty handy.
This way the extra panels can help run the house during the day via the eg4 charge controllers. So extra components even with an all in one is possible and actually pretty handy.
GXMnow
Solar Wizard
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The communication can be a nice feature, but it is not required in many cases.
The data typically consists of the calculated State of Charge (SoC), the total BMS current and voltage, the minimum and maximum single cell voltages, temperatures, and the maximum charge and discharge current the BMS can accept.
From this data, the inverter, charger, chargeverter, etc. can determine the charge rate and discharge current limits to keep the battery safe. On LiFePO4 batteries, having the BMS calculate SoC can be helpful, but the charge limit should still use the battery voltage since the SoC is only a rough calculation. One major advantage of the BMS to Charger communication is the ability to slow the charge rate down as a single cell begins to top out in the upper knee. For example, you are charging at say 25 amps. This is slow on a large battery bank and should never cause a problem with a voltage limited charge. But the cells have gone out of balance, and a single cells is starting to hit the upper knee. Without BMS/Battery communication, the charging power source has no idea this is happening and just keeps charging at 25 amps. The balancer, even at 2 amps, is not able to slow the run away cell and the BMS just hits it's cell over voltage protection and turns off all charge current to that battery. If you have a bank of multiple batteries, it is not a huge deal, but a single battery going into disconnect like that can be a big issue for some charge controllers and inverters. With the battery communication, the BMS can command the inverter to reduce the charge current as a single cell becomes near full into the top knee. The battery is near full, so this reduced charge rate is not a big deal. And if it drops from 25 amps to 4 amps, the 4 amp balancer can cut the high cell's charge rate in half, giving a lot more time for the other cells to catch up. If the cells are well matched and closely top balanced, then this should not be a problem, but it can happen. A similar thing can happen on the discharge side with an inverter. A single cells starts to reach the bottom knee. The overall pack voltage is fine, so the inverter stays running at full power. The BMS then just shuts off the discharge current, oops. With the BMS communication, the inverter will see the available current dropping. If it is running local loads, this can't help much, but the inverter can do a safe shut down and keep the status monitoring working since the battery is not shut off yet. If it was exporting power from battery to grid, it can reduce or even stop that current flow as the battery commands less maximum current. Again, this won't be an issue with well matched and balanced cells, or if you are not trying to pull all the energy from the system. If you have well matched and balanced cells, just leave a bit of SoC room at both ends, and stay well below the max C-Rates of the cells, and the communication won't change how the system operates. But if you want to push the batteries for the maximum cycle capacity, the communication can make it safer and help protect the batteries for a longer life.
EG4TechSolutionsTeam
Online Support for EG4 Electronics
BMS communication enables the sharing of battery information with the selected inverter/charger, such as the battery's state of charge, error codes to halt discharging and charging, and for certain battery models, the capability for rapid shutdown.
micronova
New Member
It seems there is a "new" chargeverter from EG4, for $79 more than the "old" yellow one, and as of now available for pre-order.
EG4 Chargeverter - GC | 48V 100A Battery Charger 5120W Output | 240/120V Input
Signature Solar provides solar panels, off-grid solar systems, grid-tie, and hybrid systems. Quality solar inverters, bifacial solar panels, complete solar kits, solar batteries. Featuring brands such as EG4 Electronics with their solar battery, LifePower4 and EG4 LLifePower4 and EG4 LLsignaturesolar.com
Does anyone know if there is any difference between this new grey model and the older yellow one that justifies $80 more? It seems the form factor might be different as well?
Edit: It looks like these are the "new" features:
Dry Contacts:
- Control of generator start/stop function based on Voltage or state of charge (SOC)
Using EG4 Batteries?
- Closed loop communication with EG4 batteries for charging based on battery state of charge (SOC), when batteries are not in communication with the inverter
I was wanting to get another yellow one but can't find them on Signature Solar's site anymore. Just this one.
Also new grey chargeverter has softstart/ software current ramp up. The original yellow unit could draw in excess of 150 amps on the dc side as breaker was turned on. Also drew more than 20 amps on ac side on 120 vac input.It seems there is a "new" chargeverter from EG4, for $79 more than the "old" yellow one, and as of now available for pre-order.
EG4 Chargeverter - GC | 48V 100A Battery Charger 5120W Output | 240/120V Input
Signature Solar provides solar panels, off-grid solar systems, grid-tie, and hybrid systems. Quality solar inverters, bifacial solar panels, complete solar kits, solar batteries. Featuring brands such as EG4 Electronics with their solar battery, LifePower4 and EG4 LLifePower4 and EG4 LL
Does anyone know if there is any difference between this new grey model and the older yellow one that justifies $80 more? It seems the form factor might be different as well?
Edit: It looks like these are the "new" features:
Dry Contacts:
- Control of generator start/stop function based on Voltage or state of charge (SOC)
Using EG4 Batteries?
- Closed loop communication with EG4 batteries for charging based on battery state of charge (SOC), when batteries are not in communication with the inverter
I was wanting to get another yellow one but can't find them on Signature Solar's site anymore. Just this one.
guru_florida
New Member
I got the new RG4 Chargeverter. I bought it to hook into my RV that has an existing generator and auto transfer switch for shore power (120v). I noticed in the manual it says "If using the Chargeverter when connected to the grid, the charger will not automatically start/stop the charging cycle according to the parameters set by the user." (page 9, middle NOTE).
Anyone know, how does it determine if the CV is on grid power? I suppose it could assume if it's controlling the generator via dry contact then it would know, but the manual is not clear on this.
My transfer switch currently goes into my 120v panel, but my plan was to disconnect this and wire into the CV. Then wire my 6000XP inverter into the 120v panel. This way I am charging my batteries with either shore power or generator when required and my RV appliances run fully off the inverter.
Anyone know, how does it determine if the CV is on grid power? I suppose it could assume if it's controlling the generator via dry contact then it would know, but the manual is not clear on this.
My transfer switch currently goes into my 120v panel, but my plan was to disconnect this and wire into the CV. Then wire my 6000XP inverter into the 120v panel. This way I am charging my batteries with either shore power or generator when required and my RV appliances run fully off the inverter.
GXMnow
Solar Wizard
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I don't think this will be a real issue. Set the voltage to only hit your desired float level and the current will drop off when the battery get's there. It won't "STOP" charging completely, but the current will fall quite low and keep the battery at your float level until you shut it off.
if you truly needed it to stop on it's own, I guess you could wire up a contactor that would apply power to the Chargeverter when the generator run contacts close. You might need to have a manual switch turn on the relay, set it to charge, once it is charging, the generator run relay should come on, turn off the manual switch and once it hits the cut off level, the relay can shut it all down. But then... Will it be able to start up? Not sure. Does the Chargeverter run it's logic and display from the DC side? I guess it would need to if it can command the generator start. If that's the case, the manual switch might not even be needed. When it commands generator start, the contactor closes and connects grid power to the Chargeverter again.
guru_florida
New Member
Thanks GXMnow. I'm not sure what the purpose of the manual switch/relay-contactor would solve, sorry I didn't quite follow that. My thinking is I just wire the 120v output from the auto transfer switch (generator/shore) into the chargeverter. The chargeverter shouldn't care where the input is coming from. However, thinking about this more I suppose when on shore power and the chargeverter goes into charge mode (hit low SoC) it's going to trigger the generator which will turn on (undesirable in this case). So I will want to put a simple switch on the dry contact to enable/disable dry contact generator start. I'll enable it only when boon-docking.
I'll be sure to shut down the chargeverter before plugging into shore as well. It'll be pulling up to 2100 watts.
I'll be sure to shut down the chargeverter before plugging into shore as well. It'll be pulling up to 2100 watts.
GXMnow
Solar Wizard
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The idea of the Chargeverter with Auto Generator Start/Stop is that it will turn on when the battery gets too low, and shut off when it goes above a set threshold. But from the manual, it says that function does not work when connected to grid power.
If you wanted that automatic function from "Shore Power" or any other grid source, I don't see why this wouldn't work. When the battery goes too low, it will close the gen start relay. That connects grid power to the Chargeverter's input. IT then ramps up and charges the batteries. When the battery reaches the set level, it opens the gen start relay, that disconnects the grid input power from the Chargeverter. In my mind, it seems that simple, it should work just fine.
In my case, I will use it with a generator, but my generator does not have electric start. I will have to manually start it when my battery runs low. But I still think I can repurpose the gen start/stop relay to still shut down my generator once the battery reaches my full threshold level.
If you wanted that automatic function from "Shore Power" or any other grid source, I don't see why this wouldn't work. When the battery goes too low, it will close the gen start relay. That connects grid power to the Chargeverter's input. IT then ramps up and charges the batteries. When the battery reaches the set level, it opens the gen start relay, that disconnects the grid input power from the Chargeverter. In my mind, it seems that simple, it should work just fine.
In my case, I will use it with a generator, but my generator does not have electric start. I will have to manually start it when my battery runs low. But I still think I can repurpose the gen start/stop relay to still shut down my generator once the battery reaches my full threshold level.
DIYrich
Solar Wizard
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guru_florida
New Member
It's the other way around. I don't want it to turn on the generator if shore power is available. It doesn't make much sense to run the generator if I have shore power available to charge with. If I add a switch on the dry contacts I can easily disable gen-start so it doesn't inadvertently start the generator when on shore. That line in the manual seems to suggest the CV can detect when the input is from the generator or shore and that would be freakin' awesome if it just knew....but I don't know how it could tell the difference.
(I do have a lot of experience with electrical and with embedded control so it's got me curious how auto detection would work. I can only surmise that it assumes shore power if AC is present and it didn't command the generator to get it...essentially logic in software.)
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