Victron is Over-priced Eurotrash. Why would anybody buy Victron over an AiO?

[Aridom82]

How come no one ever factors in roi when they buy a sofa?

Can you put a price on freedom?

Etc etc. ???

i hope you have a good time monetizing your sofa lol

 

[G00SE]

i hope you have a good time monetizing your sofa lol

If it’s a black couch and in a back room he may have already had it monetized for a long while now ?

 

[Aridom82]

3x Quattro 10k 2x 450/200 charge controllers.
And you won’t have to replace any of it in 2 years for the next best thing
You’d be under 20k for all of the Victron equipment. Not much different than trying to go 3 phase with any other tier one

That is 20k just for the victron system. I did it with 3k with 3 voltronic max axpert 8kw, that is 17k difference. I mean is not a small difference.
I get that the victron is top quality and super reliable, but the voltronic is not garbage either and it has 2 year warranty. The voltronic pay for themselves way before the warranty expires

 

[wattmatters]

Victron is nice kit and I would be very happy to have it but I get what I need for 1/3rd of the cost.

As for plug 'n' play, honestly can it be any easier than an AIO?

I have full remote monitoring and automation control.

I have solar forecasting (e.g. my automations use it to assess what sort of supplemental battery charging might be needed each day and then adjust the charging strategy accordingly).

Also, I don't have the space for a Victron system of the same capacity. It would require far more wall space than I have available.

But the backup, support and warranty is an important factor - I do not expect I will get much, if anything, in the way of support for my AIO. This support has value. The question is, how much value? Is it really worth paying triple? There is no right or wrong answer.

Longevity is also a factor - how long will my unit last? Don't know but replacement isn't expensive.

Fundamentally if Victron was the only option then at their prices I would not have a system at all. It's really that simple.

 

[ksmithaz1]

I briefly had a "100A" Victron Autotransformer. I returned it, and ended up with different AIO's. Seemed to be well built, nice aluminum case. Pretty much impossible to stuff three 2AWG cables in the thing, much less 6. I managed it cussing the whole time. The openings had an odd "gland" fitting would not take US standard anything.

I call BS on support being good. I tried calling, writing (soaking and scrubbing and still I get "ring around the collar") to no avail, to answer a stupidly easy question. They sent me in circles. I might still have the E-mails from the website inquiries, they literally sent me for support to a vendor that did not sell the product I was inquiring about, I spun in circles for a couple of weeks.

My problem and question was around the disparity in voltage between the legs on the split. I was feeding 240v and getting something silly like 115 on one leg and 125 on the other. I have pictures I don't remember the exact numbers but they were WAY out. I finally got a response from someone unrelated to Victron that this was normal. Awright, fortunatly the inverters I was using fell over under load, so I'm happy I got rid of all that cruft, and replaced it with 2 AIO's. The differental on my 18KPV/12LV's is +- 1v.

I'm don't really see much benefit in a 'Component' system approach for Solar if you can get a decent AIO, like a SolArk or EG4.

It may have lots of components, and it may end up being complicated, but at least you get to pay more for it.

 

[ksmithaz1]

But the backup, support and warranty is an important factor - I do not expect I will get much, if anything, in the way of support for my AIO. This support has value. The question is, how much value? Is it really worth paying triple? There is no right or wrong answer.

Reliability is important to a point. One of the questions you have to ask is: Is it reliable enough and inexpensive enough, that I can just buy a spare and leave it sitting there if it croaks? How painful is it to swap it in if it does? Is something better and less expensive going to be available by the time it dies? YMMV

 

[sunshine_eggo]

I call BS on support being good. I tried calling, writing (soaking and scrubbing and still I get "ring around the collar") to no avail, to answer a stupidly easy question. They sent me in circles. I might still have the E-mails from the website inquiries, they literally sent me for support to a vendor that did not sell the product I was inquiring about, I spun in circles for a couple of weeks.

Victron is not "wired" for direct consumer support. What did your vendor say when you contacted them?

When I have a question, I call, text or email my Victron vendor. He usually gets back to me within a day or two with the answer. On the rare occasion that he doesn't know, he reaches out to Victron and has an answer in another 1-2 days. I did not pay a premium of any kind. Prices were "Amazon or better".

 

[AntronX]

Victron replaced 75/15 mppt free of charge that I blew up due to shorting PV wires while in operation. Had to have some email argument with the dealer but I was able to get my way.

 

[jimf909]

More in favor of Victron:
- The manuals and documentation include a ton of helpful information and are well written in English to promote understanding. It's a pleasure to read their manuals.
- Their Wiring Unlimited document is a perfect example and reflects a company that is focused on supporting their customers.

 

[G00SE]

Who makes a reliable low frequency all in one?
I haven’t found one. So for low frequency one is essentially forced to go component system

There are continuous comparisons to solark and luxpower but they aren’t close to similar in design either.

 

[G00SE]

That is 20k just for the victron system. I did it with 3k with 3 voltronic max axpert 8kw, that is 17k difference. I mean is not a small difference.
I get that the victron is top quality and super reliable, but the voltronic is not garbage either and it has 2 year warranty. The voltronic pay for themselves way before the warranty expires

Where did you find the max axpert for sale? I’ve seen a couple of threads about them on here but wasn’t sure which vendors people were using.
You make a very valid point. My heart and brain tell me Victron or midnite. My pocket book tells me Growatt lmao. But only because it’s the only LF AIO I can find on outside of the eg4 6000ex and I’d like something larger

 

[1201]

Fundamentally if Victron was the only option then at their prices I would not have a system at all. It's really that simple.

This!

 

[Aridom82]

Where did you find the max axpert for sale? I’ve seen a couple of threads about them on here but wasn’t sure which vendors people were using.
You make a very valid point. My heart and brain tell me Victron or midnite. My pocket book tells me Growatt lmao. But only because it’s the only LF AIO I can find on outside of the eg4 6000ex and I’d like something larger

https://www.solarpower24.it/?lang=en

Is a very popular online vendor in Italy, a lot of people buy their products and have good enough reviews. If i lived in the us i would probably have gone for the eg4 products

 

[ksmithaz1]

Victron is not "wired" for direct consumer support. What did your vendor say when you contacted them?

When I have a question, I call, text or email my Victron vendor. He usually gets back to me within a day or two with the answer. On the rare occasion that he doesn't know, he reaches out to Victron and has an answer in another 1-2 days. I did not pay a premium of any kind. Prices were "Amazon or better".

I bought it on Amazon. Requests got routed directly fo Victron. It was not a good experience. Most of the places around here that sell Victron only sell a limited number of their products, none of them the autotransformer. Signature Solar does sell the autotransformer, I eventually got a response from them, but we've had the SS support discussion to death. I can't say I'm a fountain of knowledge around AC feed systems but I have had occasion to connect a "dry transformer" for an application at one time to create a neutral. To this day I'm struggling with the idea of an 8v differential between the legs being "normal". For starters it could exacerbate the problem you are trying to solve if all your load ends up on the lower voltage leg, the Victron claims to handle a 30A differential.

To my point someone was praising them for being small and watching over everything wonderful people and all that, yet after contacting them three times and on the 2nd and 3rd try asking them not to put me in touch with the same people that refused to help me, they did just that. So, while it's great you got good tech support, I'm thinking it was your vendor that was great not Victron per se.

I also think if you want to sell a product that takes 100A conductors (2AWG) you darn well ought to make it a little easier to "fold them in". If the connector is visibly stressed once screwed down, and it requires a series of 45 degree bends in a 1-1/2 - 2-1/2 inch span with three 2AWG wires you did not properly engineer the box. I have pictures, I managed it, and cussed the whole time. I had to have help getting the wires in the box. YMMV, but the EG4 was a total breeze, I pushed it thru 1-1/2 conduit, slight bend with my fingers (instead of mangling the insulation with the Kleins and a cloth) strip criimped a ferrule stuff under the hex nut done.

Also panels are just getting bigger and bigger and better and better. I can't find a component MPPT that will handle 500+VOC and I'll be darned if I'm going to run #4 or #6 up to my panels to handle 50 odd amps and up. For smaller systems with only a few panels it's less relevant but if you start getting upwards of 40 panels (I have 48) do you really want 10+ MPPT's? If I wanted to go Victron, that's where I'd be. There are folks here on the form that like to fiddle with the hardware, BYOBattery banks, and the like, so this kind of thing is probably more fun for them. I toyed with the idea of doing my own batteries and BMC, but I'm also a tiny bit anal, and I really like the idea of rack mounting battery modules with built-in BMC's. If your playing with this Solar stuff, you are going to be running a lot of wire all over the place. Playing around with Victron stuff will not ease this burden, so while I think their gear is pretty it is highly unlikely I would ever buy it moving forward unless they were to create an AIO on par with Sol-Ark or EG4/Lux.

 

[Q-Dog]

The EG4 stuff didn't exist when I bought my blue stuff. Plus, I wanted proven reliability and not another thing to worry about. I have no regrets. Well, maybe I regret not going bigger.

 

[50ShadesOfDirt]

Don't really have a dog in this hunt, as I have Magnum 4024 (LF) that is past it's 5-yr warranty, and still going strong. I DO have to ponder what I'll be replacing it with, if and when it (possibly) breaks. Don't know if it'll be Victron ... leaning towards Midnite.

Have a MidNite Classic 150 MPPT, and the whole thing is prewired with the Magnum. In reviewing the MidNite website (docs, warranty, etc.), it is impressive that MidNite has their own (HF) inverters, with upwards of a 5, 7, or 10-yr warranty. For a measly $150 service fee, you can send your unit back in towards the end of the warranty, and they'll replace all "wearable" parts; it's lightweight, so may not incur shipping penalties. Quite a warranty for an HF unit.

So, while I'm experimenting with other's AIO's (and fully expect to replace, not warranty/repair these), and have zero problem with my Magnum, I absolutely love the MidNite Classic MPPT, and now that they also have a complete pre-wired system (inverter, e-panel, mppt), it's like an AIO without the poor quality, and it's made/supported in the USA, and you can refurbish it at the last second, before the 10-year warranty expires.

I might price out something similar with Victron (and yes, their WiringUnlimited book is great) but unless there is a Victron "firstborn" or "arm & leg" option, it'll probably be MidNite.

If I had a 40' blue-ocean catamaran, then no doubt ... Victron would be thrown into the total package cost *as an option* by the boat dealer, along with new leather seats ... I would've rummaged in my couch crevices for the money, and paid it without blinking ...

<my wife slaps me back into reality>

 

[ksmithaz1]

Who makes a reliable low frequency all in one?
I haven’t found one. So for low frequency one is essentially forced to go component system

There are continuous comparisons to solark and luxpower but they aren’t close to similar in design either.

I looked at this as well. I agree a LF inverter would be preferred, but the EG4/Lux has demonstrated it is capable of handling extreme surges without falling over, as well as a neutral leg disparity of >60A (The video show something like 16A on one leg and 70 on the other). I'm guessing the Sol-Ark performs admirably as well. The last firmware update I got mitigates the flicker issues to the point where they are not really that annoying, it does nick the TV screen once an a while, it's behind a UPS, so the flicker is shorter than a non-line interactive UPS (TODO/TOREPLACE). At one point in my journey, I found a 100A dry transformer for under $2K, I was going to try it, it should actually accomplish something similar to an LF, basically you can set it up for pure isolation, and it should help smooth surges. I really can't justify it the way everything is working. It's also bulky and heavy as sh*t.

I'm still a little fuzzy on what low-frequency and high-frequency mean in practice. I think low basically means continuous inversion from battery thru a transformer which is much more inefficient. High dumps the power from whatever the source to an inversion circuit that is controlled by continuous sampling, and adjusting based on that high frequency of samples, without suffering multiple conversion losses. If I'm way off someone please clarify/enlighten.

I find it likely that the current crop of AIO's will be dated in 5 years and that later technology products will likely solve some of the HF issues with trickery and cunning. I have been wrong before, it will be an interesting ride.

 

[50ShadesOfDirt]

Perhaps another way to look at LF & HF inverters, beyond what types of loads (the old comparison between the two) it can easily handle is ... warranty:

- If an HF inverter at only 1- or 2-yrs of warranty, it's not up to snuff for loads; needs more research as to what types of loads it could handle, and for how long, and probably needs a replacement strategy (it will be killed faster by your loads)
- If an LF inverter at 3- to 5-yrs or more, it's up to snuff for loads; can probably run anything you throw at it (motors & such) within its watt rating, for more years.

The MidNite "rosie" inverter seems to be blurring the lines. It's an HF inverter, but handles large loads like an LF inverter, has longer warranties like an LF, has low-idle watts like an LF, weighs in like an HF ...

Again, if you get a "pre-wired" system (MidNite Rosie w/ HF inverter, charger, e-panel, mppt), it'll be component-like internally, but goes up on the wall like an AIO ... at 5- to 10-years of warranty, that's got to indicate some reliability, and with their made in the usa and their customer support behind it ... I don't think the china-brand of HF's can match all these characteristics.

 

[Rocksnsalt]

Sounds pricey, but also sounds like a pretty specific edge case that would be big time overkill for the vast majority of people. Under what conditions do you foresee needing 24,000W continuous?

I didn’t see anything about anyone needing 24,000w continuous.

I saw 24kw mentioned in post 4.
I figured he might’ve meant 24kwh.

But does 24kw mean it has to be continuous, or am I missing something?

 

[Hedges]

Try to build a 24kw victron system that will pay for itself in your lifetime.

I didn’t see anything about anyone needing 24,000w continuous.

I saw 24kw mentioned in post 4.
I figured he might’ve meant 24kwh.

But does 24kw mean it has to be continuous, or am I missing something?

I have 23 kW (continuous from battery at 25C) SMA plus a bunch more kW AC coupled from PV.
Also a 3-phase system.
I think 11.5 kW continuous would have been sufficient for the house when I'm running off-grid, but I wanted more amps pass-through when on-grid.
24kW means never having to apologize.

I've had them in Red, Blue, Grey, Yellow.

Support is slow, but it does happen.
Warranty 20 years ago was 5 year, now 10 and 20 year either standard or available.

 

[ChrisG]

I briefly had a "100A" Victron Autotransformer. I returned it,

@ksmithaz1 Question about your issue with Autotransformer. Were you feeding it with a 240v inverter for split phase output OR were you feeding it with a 120v inverter and using step-up to split phase or not doing split phase at all.

 

[ksmithaz1]

Sounds pricey, but also sounds like a pretty specific edge case that would be big time overkill for the vast majority of people. Under what conditions do you foresee needing 24,000W continuous?

You have to build for peak demand. I have hit 100A on my 240V/100A panel, albeit only briefly. I routinely hit 18KW (75A) and routinely have continuous loads for more than 15 minutes above 15KW. My home is a modest 1500sqft all electric block house in Phoenix. I don't really feel like this is an edge case if you want to be off-grid. If you were off-grid in a cooler climate with no A/C and maybe propane for your heat and hot water, you hung your clothes out or had a gas dryer, etc, etc, you could get by with a lot less, but I doubt I would ever put in less than 12KW, and I really do like an Air Conditioner because I'm old and cranky. A lot of off-grid folks will need to have a well pump as well, those puppies have a tendency to suck it down on startup. If one were careful you could probably squeeze an all-electric 2500 sqtt off-grid into 24KW, you would just need to watch demand
If you are running 24KW continuous, you'd probably need 36KW to meet demand peaks. . . Well pump, Charging a car, 3 HVAC's, HWH, Electric Clothes dryer, electric range with 6 burners, a couple of ovens all running full blast for Thanksgiving dinner or something, would definitely suck it down. If I had another 16 newer tech ~400w panels and two more 30KW battery racks I would be golden. The problem is it's a lot of money and the payback is definitely not there !

 

[Hedges]

@ksmithaz1 Question about your issue with Autotransformer. Were you feeding it with a 240v inverter for split phase output OR were you feeding it with a 120v inverter and using step-up to split phase or not doing split phase at all.

Based on his use of quotations "100A", I'm going to go out on a limb and say he thought it was a 100A auto-transformer. It is a 28A auto-transformer, able to handle 32A briefly. It has 100A relay to pass through L1 and L2.

Anybody got a scope and current probe or CT, who could show us the idle current waveform that transformer draws? I'm curious about the characteristics of transformers sold for use with inverters.

 

[ksmithaz1]

@ksmithaz1 Question about your issue with Autotransformer. Were you feeding it with a 240v inverter for split phase output OR were you feeding it with a 120v inverter and using step-up to split phase or not doing split phase at all.

240v to create a neutral for split phase. It did work, it just wasn't even. Had the cheapo 240v inverters held up I would have probably run with it, at least for a while. I had to re-engineer the room on the fly, and I don't like how it ended up. I'll probably build an outbuilding with block to house it all at some point.

 

[Hedges]

240v to create a neutral for split phase. It did work, it just wasn't even.

Was that with balanced 120V current draw, or if not, how much current imbalance?